When rap came out 30 years ago I thought it was just a fad

@bdp24 @lowrider57 thanks. You are right the early Sugarhill gang "The message " was an important song that talked about social ills in America. Run DMC "Hard Times" was another song. Kurtis Blow "If I ruled the World" Too Short's"The Ghetto" all of these songs brought awareness to the social ills and problems in America at that time that were being ignored.  Like I said before I can tell when people actually know the music that's in the genre.  Yes rap has changed and we have fewer of the the socially conscious rappers that we had in the past. Rap at one time was a poor mans CNN.     It told real stories about what was happening in America.  It railed hard against censorship and over reaching powers of our government. People who know real rap history know that.  People who don't hate it just to hate it and have no social awareness of the earlier positive affects it had in American Culture. Small minded group think at its best. Anyway thanks for your input fellas. Enjoy your music. 

Just this past Sunday, the last story on 60 Minutes was a segment on a Broadway Musical that tells the story of Alexander Hamilton set to Rap/Hiphop. I understand completely if that sounds silly to you, but I'm here to tell you I dug it. Written by and starring a first generation Puerto Rican immigrant, it has had both Obama and Cheney as audience members!

There's something to be said to be born at the right time. :-)

So true.

I've been silent since early in this thread when I stated that I was listening to Rap in the early days. After seeing this thread going in circles, I have to say that I agree with calvinj's statements.
My earlier statement....

For me, it goes back to 1980ish with The Sugarhill Gang's "Rapper's Delight" and Grandmaster Flash and the Furious Five. Anybody who's heard their song "The Message" knows what real Rap is about. These were a group of young Black men from the South Bronx with a social and political message about growing up on the mean streets.
For close to two decades, groups with a message such as Public Enemy, NWO, Run DMC (who were more tongue in cheek), Kool Moe Dee, Salt-n-Pepa, LL Cool J, Snoop Dogg, Tupac in the 90s and so many others produced rhythmic and lyrical music. Some were political/social statements and some were just fun.

This is what calvinj has been saying, that Rap was the only way these groups had to express themselves. And people took notice. Back then it wasn't about dissing women and who spent the most time in jail. I call it music and a good part of it is performance art. Today's Rap has morphed into some bad formula music that I do not like.
Tastes change and mature and I listen to Classical now, but I kept my old Rap CDs and 12 inches.

This discussion reminds me of when I was involved in the punk rock movement in the late 70s, NYC. People said that wasn't music. It's funny that the white kids who were into Punk and New Wave (post-punk) all welcomed the Rap movement of the 80s. But when we were that age, we were open-minded.

You may be on to something, nonoise.  I watched the last 20-25 minutes of a Kendrick Lamar ACL concert last night on tv.  He seemed talented and earnest and he had a combo of apparently talented musicians behind him.  I say "apparently" because they mostly played very pedestrian music behind his rap except for about one minute of a really good keyboard solo.  The crowd of 2700 loved every minute of the show (or the part I saw).  Oh, and the crowd seemed to be 99% white people, so I'm not sure which race or culture I must be biased against. 

Rap reminds me of the Beatniks, I didn't like them either. Both are like some sort of word association for the uninitiated in their respected crafts. 

Then, again, I was too young to appreciate the Beatniks and am now too old to appreciate Rap. There's something to be said to be born at the right time. :-)

All the best,
Nonoise

This was set off  (by spacing) as one thought:

There's very real cultural/racial bias in this thread.
1. Rap is not music.
2. Creators of rap are somehow not as good as regular humans (whatever that means).

What else could you have meant?  If the A-gon members who said either of the two things are not culturally/racially biased, then who did you mean?

I said that in my opinion there were statements made in this thread that could be construed as racist or biased.

Rap is not music is an entirely different issue.

rja, what you said was:

There's very real cultural/racial bias in this thread.
1. Rap is not music.

Are you not saying that I am culturally/racially biased for saying rap is not music?  If not, what are you saying?

BTW, I said it was another form of art but simply didn't meet my criteria for being considered music.  That in and of itself is not a knock.  Actually, I feel partly the same about opera, which contains a lot of which is undeniably music (and a lot of it is undeniably great music), but as I said earlier:  opera is people singing when they should be talking and rap is people talking when they should be singing.  Don't take that too seriously, it's a pointed joke.

Anyway, if you weren't saying that to say rap is not music carries a cultural/racial bias, what were you saying?

Synthfreek,

I have news for you. This is one of the more reputable sights. At least it not run by gorts or Nazi's.

tostadosunidos,
I have taken absolutely no position on whether rap is music or not therefore I feel no need to prove anything either way. If you feel that rap is not music that’s your prerogative. I really don’t care.

As far as me playing "the race card" I only stated my opinion that some posts in this thread are, to me, not so subtly racist. The posts in question mostly involve those who write and perform rap and those who enjoy it.

Rap has been around a long time so why all the angst now? Sorry but I just don’t see it as an indicator or cause of the decline of western civilization. I would be loath to attribute that much power to any form of music or non-music.

BTW: I never personally accused you of anything.

my old friend told that the word rap is actually misspelled...

Yup, Kurtis Blow was the man!  There is a movie called "Krush Groove" Stars Run-DMC, LL Cool J, Fat Boys, Beastie Boys, Kurtis Blow. Shiela E., New Edition. It shows some of the early years of Rap. Russell Simmons and Rick Rubin started Def Jam. Gives you a lot of history of the genre and how they overcame the people who hated it. There is a great song called "King Of Rock" by Run DMC. It has some great guitar riffs in it. I still know the song word for word 30 years later.

Am I perhaps the only one to remember...  Kurtis Blow, on your stere-ereo ?
I want to say like 1980. 
For better or worse: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5ZDUEilS5M4

Don't shoot the messenger; I'm not a fan. But I remember this guy hitting the scene and thinking, this is a very different genre of music -- with the entire vocal range of one-to-three notes.

This thread would have lasted about 5 minutes on just about any owner reputable music forum before being zapped by a moderator. Let me guess...one of your best friends is black?

@souljasmooth that right.  The purpose of the original poster was never to actually get an answer. It was just say it's terrible. However, I listen to hip hop and mostly jazz.  I can respect any genre. Anyway enjoy your music.  I grew up on it and I am happy for the younger guys who are still doing it. Great cultural impact. Some good some bad. Like most other music.  

I came out a lot longer than 30 yrs ago.  Just listen to (and watch the video of) Dylan's "Subterranean Homesick Blues"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=67u2fmYz7S4

This is where it all started.  Seriously. Dylan was/is a "f@@@ing" genius

I was just trying to keep it fun by posting a few songs that are not commercialized, and that most audiophiles have never heard.  This discussion is way too serious. I doubt anyone even cared to listen to them....lol. 

@souljasmooth You see this.  Thug this thug that.  We know that that means.  Anyway. I see that you listen by your suggestions.  You will not see much of that in these kind of forums.  You will get blanket statements and challenges to folks that maybe are not as deep into to rap as we once were. I guess that how it is. Anyway I was listening to ll cool j and whodini today and may wish for 1985.  Made me think of all the music, motivation and messages.  It also made me think of the fun.  Enjoy your music.  

rja, there is no cultural or racial bias that makes me think rap is not music.  Quit playing those cards.  Step up to the plate and show me where the music is in rap.  Quit making unfair, snap judgements and use your brain.

Lol. Subtle cultural bias comment also had me laughing Then I saw a rap artist called Jidenna and the video to the song "Knickers" and all I could do is laugh harder. Witty is back! Lol 

Or maybe rap is the flip side of an American dream that became a nightmare...for some.

Poor Mr. Taters, assaulted on all sides by that nefarious evil thing called rap. There’s simply no escape. It's all-powerful and it’s out to get us all....

Will it succeed?  Stay tuned for the next episode.  These are indeed scary times in the world of high-end audio.

"Yup even if you don't want to listen to rap nowadays it's almost unavoidable like it or not"

And that is what I have been trying to say this whole time. Thanks for making it more clear.

Everything is not meant for everybody to like or understand. Rap used to seek acceptance and now most of those fans and artists revel in fact that they could care less about who likes it or not. Music is made in every genre to be different some of us like it some of us don't. Yup even if you don't want to listen rap nowadays it's almost unavoidable like it or not.  I stayed away from this kind of Internet forum because it's a place to be extreme. It's the new right leaning megaphone for social media. Just enjoy the music you have and for those who don't like rap avoid it if you can. Lol

Thank you RJA for clearly identifying and naming the elephant in this room.

For the OP who cannot let it go, I think your question, although it is essentially one of a rhetorical nature, has been answered, numerous times.

And, finally, once again:  If you don't like rap don't listen to it.  

Let It Go.

There's very real cultural/racial bias in this thread.
1. Rap is not music.
2. Creators of rap are somehow not as good as regular humans (whatever that means).

I take the position that there are many things I don't understand and/or don't like but to each his own.
So for those that like rap, great ain't none of my business. I'm not the arbiter and will not bad mouth it whether I like it or not.

Fortunately it's not up to me to dictate what others should or shouldn't like or for me to define what music or art is, beyond a personal reference, and I don't spend time worrying about it.

I have thought about the definition of music and art throughout my life but have never achieved any meaningful definitions. It's like painting yourself into a corner, just when you seem to work toward some conclusion something new crops up that requires rethinking. And that's how it should be because that's what it's all about.

There are those who like only music from the 40's or 60's etc. Well it's a continuous process that doesn't stop and you can't make it stop so get over it.

To me in life, as well as in art and music, it's best to keep an open mind. So let's enjoy what we enjoy and leave other folks alone.

"I will keep enjoying my crappy music on my high-end system"

That sounds like an oxymoron to me.

Taters-You must have been picked on by a rapper in the past.  I don't know why you are so negative about it. Then again, I don't really care.  I wasn't laughing at you guys.  I was laughing at the negative comments that you guys make about a subject you don't know much about.  I can care less if anyone likes what I like.  I will keep enjoying my crappy music on my high end system.

"Old audiophiles crack me up" 

Laugh all you want about us old audiophiles. But remember one Important thing. Without us old audiophiles there would be no high-end audio Industry. Most of the serious audio websites are made up of older people that have been doing this for years. When you go to audiophile shows it is mostly older guys with gray hair. The magazines on Audio cater to an older crowd. 

I'm sure when us baby boomers are dead and buried there will be no high-end audio Industry anymore. But it won't really matter to you since rap and hip hop don't require a high end system anyway. 

"The Revolution will not be televised" is one of the greatest pieces ever because it was raw unyielding and straight truth. Funny how it's not cool to drink the Kool Aid when certain people are pouring it. Drink up Fellas or die of thirst. Lol. Everybody around the world are just Rap Zombies. I liked it more when I was younger but I hope I never become a guy who lumps everybody into one pitcher of Kool-Aid.

Old Audiophiles crack me up.  Why is everyone so serious about this subject?  If you don't like the music don't listen to it.  Its pretty simple.  Funny thing is the people that whine about rap music is the same people that whine about the next generation not being into Hifi.  Rap discussions come up every so often.  I even started one over 10yrs ago.  I wonder why people on these forums talks about rap in such a negative way, but nobody ever mentions Metal, Techno, or Dub step, which IMHO are the worst forms of music.  To me music is music, and we need to be open about it, so the next generation for hifi doesn't disappear. 

Rap 20 yrs ago to rap now is completely different.  Its more commercialized now.  A lot of the rappers aren't even from the streets.  Theres not a lot of story telling, and a lot of it is repetitive beats to sound good in the clubs and dance to. I don't care too much for the stuff thats on the radio.  Artists like Drake, Kanye West, 50 cent, all kinda sound the same to me.  

I don't really care for some of the lyrics in rap songs.  Especially when every other word is F**** you, or the N*** word.  But I understand that is where they are from, and that is how they talk.  Rap is suppose to be real, and to take all that away from these guys from the streets would make their music sound fake.  Besides people on these forums act like they don't cuss in real life…not a huge issue for me.

I do wish rappers would grow up to learn to be a musician first.  But remember, some of these guys grew up on the streets where being a musician isn't possible.  I know growing up, there was no way I would be able to afford a guitar, piano, or even a Harmonica…lol  However there are plenty of rappers that can play instruments.  Just to name a few….Pimp C, Andre 3000, Pharrell, and Scarface.  

I am a huge fan of rap from the 80s and 90s, and own a good collection of rap cds.  I grew up listening to it, and I still listen to it now.  I just try to keep an open mind about rap nowadays.  I hear myself whining about it sometimes, but every so often I will hear something I like.  

here are a few of my favorite rap songs for you audiophiles to check out.  Curious on your thoughts.

LL Cool J- I need Love

UGK- One Day

Master P ft Pimp C- I miss My Homies

NB Ridaz-Girl

Ghetto Commission-Im a Soulja

Pastor Troy-Vice Versa

Masses don't really make make the choices ,they drink the kool-aid presented to them .

onhwy61, give me five tracks that you think deserve to be mentioned in the same breath with "the Revolution will not be Televised" and I will listen to them and get back to you.  I will listen with good phones, undistracted and with big ears and an open mind as I usually do.
BTW, FWIW, I like "the Revolution will not be Televised" and find it very musical.  I also like "Revolution" and "Revolution 1" by the Beatles, but don't care for "Revolution 9"--I find that to be performance art and not music. 
You're right when you say the masses get to define standards.  You're wrong to say someone has a closed mind when they don't agree with them.  I scratch my head when I come across the rare person who doesn't like Beethoven or the Beatles, but I realize that their opinion is as good and as valuable as mine.  BTW, I have made a living as a music teacher and performer but I don't think that makes my opinion more important than someone less experienced.  But I bristle when someone someone suggests I may not have the understanding of the elements of music necessary to formulate an  opinion of what's music and what's poetry.  I have studied, listened and played for decades.  What are your special qualifications that better allows you to make this judgement?
 Anyway, I like good stuff so please, tell me your top five "musical" rap tunes and I'll give them a listen ASAP.

Jafant, you left out knocking up white girls (thank you Gov. LePage).

I still concur w/ taters- no substance to the so-called music.
Now, what rap/hiphop does do well is talk about using drugs and slapping hoes (if this is your thang)...

Fad I. Think not. There once was a group of MC's from a far away place (Oakland, California) Hieroglyphics. Did about 5 albums and continued to travel the world and perform about 15 to 20 years after they came out even 12 yrs after they stop making albums because they where the great in the hip hop area of lyrics wittiness and story telling. They continued to sell out 20,000 seat arenas because it wasn't just a fad and they were saying. They toured Europe, Asia, Austrailia and South America. Great lyrics and beats and the world from Oakland to Aukland wanted it year after year after year. The people have spoken. The world has spoken. Sorry that the 30% percent of code word thug calling folks in this country don't like it. The world does. Doesn't mean the world is right. I'm just glad we have somebody on the thread to tell us that the world is wrong and it is all crap because we are not that smart. Also, the whole world is stupid for listening to and buying it.  Also, it never did anything positive. I'm so glad that our music Oracle is a pure unadulterated genius. Lol. 

@ps 

I was primarily referring to this:

"This is one of the most insipid and vacuous threads on this website. There is an elephant in this room and it has little to do with musical taste."

I (and others) had been directly addressing that elephant throughout the whole thread.

"The reason rap has survived is because it sells"


Just because it sells doesn't make it good. Bose and McDonald's also sell and both are total crap.

Well I think that the storytelling that once dominated the rap scene is gone. People are recording 5 songs and trying to get a million hits on YouTube. It's either a dance or fake tough guy rap. I don't like it at as much as I used to. I'm older and listen to Duke Pearson, Harold Mabern, Miles Davis, John Coltrane nowadays. I will admit that if I never listened to rap and my first experience to it is what I see now I wouldn't be impressed much by what it is now. Gone is the wordplay and the wittiness that made move love it.  It has been replaced by what's on the radio now. I'm in Dallas and there is one of the greatest jazz stations in country the Kntu 88.1. My radio stays there. I hope the dance rap and posing is a phase in the genre. I have seen it before. It always corrects itself. I hope it does soon. Lol enjoy the music or noise. Lol

Yo’ Whip, My Brother:
Here is the Reader’s Digest version since my "soapbox" take was too much for you.

To address OP’s question, which I already have done in an earlier post, HAD YOU READ IT:

The reason RAP has survived is because it sells. The marketplace has spoken.

It’s as simple as black and white.

@ps 

The next time that you decide to step up on your soapbox, I'd suggest actually reading the posts on the thread first.

Oh, my goodness- If only we could get rid of RAP and hip hop,etc, we could really turn this country around.  Just think of the possibilities. Economic equality- narrowing the enormous gap between the haves and the have nots,  no more racism, women treated as the human beings they surely are, no more disenfranchised voters, no more Wall Street THUGS (speaking of f*****g thugs)  no privatization of prisons, no more gated communities for the privileged, an end to our seemingly endless wars.  High-end audio systems in the homes of all who want them, a national healthcare system which really works, a secure retirement for folks who've worked hard all their lives, enabling them to grow old with dignity. Affordable and DECENT housing. No more police brutality, busting those officers who think they have a damn license to kill black people...  No offshore tax shelters for the greediest among us.... No buttholes like Trump running for president.

My GOD, if only we could get rid of RAP....

But if we can't get rid of RAP, why don't those who find it offensive, simply stop listening to it and get on with their comfy lives?

This is one of the most insipid and vacuous threads on this website.  There is an elephant in this room and it has little to do with musical taste.

If anyone is interested, I suggest you read "The Beast Side. Living and Dying While Black In America."  Written by D. Watkins. No, it's not aimed at audiophiles or music lovers.

Have a nice day.

Most of music is about nuance within established forms.  Your comments about rap being jump rope rhymes over simplistic beats or your reference to RHCP as rappers suggests you are not familiar with or attuned to the nuances of rap.  I could be wrong and you could have an encyclopedic knowledge of rap, but you certainly haven't expressed it in this thread.

Regarding having a closed mind -- it was you who said rap is not music and it is not rock and roll.  Both statements are fairly extreme positions that are in opposition to mainstream thinking.  If 80% of the people think rap is music, then it probably is music for there is the wisdom of the crowd.  It's similar to 50,000,000 Elvis Fans Can't Be Wrong.  It really is incumbent upon you to prove your assertion and your comments about comedians and beatnik jokes aren't very convincing.

@whipsaw great take on this. That's important to note it's gives views from a different perspective and that always important to society. It has at times pointed out mistreatment and inequality in our justice system for example. I look on both sides because I saw it for before becoming a practicing attorney. Honestly when I read threads like this it makes me thankful for earlier rap and even a little rap of today because you can't just have one narrow minded point of view.  It's like a forum of media and music that couldn't be controlled by the powers that be. Rap at one time was the wild card to report on things that society would try to hide or ignore.  From that point alone it has been extremely useful in American Society. It created conversations about things that were being ignored. It also made a generation of young people not strive for acceptance but choose and make their own way. Once again it's all about perception and perspective. It also made folks understand that there is about 30% of people in this country that don't understand it or care to understand it. It also made it ok to not care if they didn't.  Public enemy, x-clan, Sister Souljah, Queen Latifah, Big Daddy Kane, Brand Nubians, Ghetto Boys, NWA, Black Thought(Band Leader of the Roots) OutKast(liberation) all spoke to issues in the community that had no other vehicle to spring them to the front of the line. Today's rap is different and is not as activist oriented as the pervious rap. However, it made sure that people who spewed out simple minded group think didn't control the conversation or America's point of view.

@garebear 

We happen to be in basic agreement about the specific comparisons that you have made. While I do believe, for reasons that I have noted, that rap will endure, and that the best and most important of its performers will have long lasting legacies, I do not put them in the same category as the likes of Beatles, Dylan, James Brown, etc.

Also, like you, I prefer most other forms of music to rap.

But having said that, even if one doesn't like spoken word lyrics laid over raw beats, it is useful to listen to the messages that the best rap artists brought/bring to the table, as they remind listeners, often in pungent terms, of deeply important problems that challenge America and much of the rest of the world, namely class, race, poverty and inequality.

onhwy61, you asked if I

might not have the knowledge to understand how the musicians are using these elements? With all due respect, while you are engaging in a discourse you seem to have closed your mind on the subject.

1) What knowledge do I need to have?  Do you mean schooling, performance experience, listening experience--please be specific and then I'll know which information to provide.  And tell us where you got your "knowledge," if you don't mind.

2) What specifically have I said that makes you think I have a "closed mind on the subject?"

Well it doesn't surprise me that there is definitely a generation gap in music. I respect the legacy of BB King, Miles Davis and Bob Dylan's. They are great musicians.  I used to represent one of the guys who played with BB.  He was a great guy as well. I'm a fan of the great Lightnin Hopkins. Those guys can never be compared to what's out here today or any of the rappers. I would never do that. However, I'm happy business wise for them. I hope that the genre takes a turn back to the less stingy song and fake tough guy posing that's going on now. I hope they do that not for the outsiders that look in and judge that 30% that is misinformed or will never like it. I hope it changes more for itself to continue its reign over popular culture. " It needs to worry about the internal thought inside itself not the rants of those outside the culture. Enjoy whatever you listen to. I like Jazz the most.  For those who like jazz go listen to Duke Pearson's album "The Right Touch" great hidden gem that has some of the greatest musicians ever playing on it. 

Mr. Whipsaw - thank you for your response but I did not think for one minute that that I was being ; '' challenged '' by you. Nor did I soften my opinion or point of view as a result of your comments about what I think of rap music. That form of  ''music'' will unfortunately will stay around, but will not have the same sustainability as the artists that I have mentioned. The point ; The Beatles catalog can now be '' streamed ''  and was welcomed with great success.....50 years later ! I will not be around, but I highly doubt that  ; Public Enemy, NWA will have THAT same kind of public reception or success in 50 years. I do see any dissonance in that comment. If you did take the time to read my original post or listen to the artists that I have mentioned, that has been my point all along. I hope to god that you or others do not place the ; 2pacs and Jay-z of the world in the same category as the ; James Browns, The BB Kings, Miles Davis or the Bob Dylans of the world etc.......as that would be an even bigger issue. "That music'' is an art form as I said and get it - but I will still stand by the point that it in no way does it compare to the true artists and musicians whose music has stood the very test of time and whose music will always be there for us to listen to and enjoy.