Like to find out what "vintage speakers" members would/might use in their current audio set-up
Do you think what made them special was the synergy between them and the amp used, or just the fact they were well designed and performed way above their price tag.??
I am sure that your 753-type system sounds terrific. I really like the drivers you are using. I recently heard a system that is still in the tuning stage of build that utilizes the 32A horn and a 302 compression driver, a 15" field-coil woofer and some kind of EV horn tweeter on top. I was wondering if you have ever thought that a tweeter might be useful way out on top (I know the 302 can go quite high on its own). I spoke with a Western Electric expert who told me that the 753 used the 713A or 713C driver, which is more extended on top than the 713B, but is not as smooth sounding, an issue which is somewhat ameliorated by the attenuation of highs from the 90 degree bend in the horn.
Almarg, Trelja, ct0517,
I totally agree that the Quad 57 remains a top competitor, provided that attaining extremely high volume and deep bass is not a major priority. That speaker really delivers something magical that is hard to explain. It is too bad someone does not try to make either a replica or a modernized version (one that does not have a tendency to arc). I recently heard, at the Capital Audiofest, a reconditioned 57 that had been put into a new frame and actively biamped (electronic crossover, two built-in EL34 amps per channel). Most of the demonstrations of that speaker were designed to show that it could play deep bass and at high volume. I could not really say if it still had that incredible midrange magic of the original, but, it certainly was very promising (this is a commercially-available speaker, not a one-of thing). Another room had a 57 with a super-tweeter on top. That system, too, sounded quite good, although the large conference room it was being shown in did not help for bass response.
In some respects, it seems that, for my taste, a lot of speaker designers, and buyers, have pursued a certain kind of sound that tends toward a lean, harmonically thin and "bloodless" sound. There are still makers who deliver an old school sound, but, they are in the minority (e.g., Audio Note, JM Reynaud, G.I.P. Laboratory, ESP). There are some extremely high end modern builders that deliver old school sound using modern updates of old drivers (Goto, Cogent). Also, while I prefer the old sound, that does not mean I don't appreciate what some very modern and completely different sounding speakers can deliver (e.g., MBL, Raidho, and YG, Soundlab).
Several old school speakers in my two main systems. A pair of stock Altec 846A Valencia's that have great synergy with my Shindo amp and preamp. However the Valencia's also sound great when my Audio Research tube gear and McCormack SS amp are pulled out of storage. I also have a pair of Quad ESL 57's that I plan to run in the early part of 2016 with my Shindo preamp and a pair of Quad II monoblocks to give the Valencia's a little break.
Rounding out the "stable" is a pair of Quad ESL 63's that need refurbishment, but when that project is completed after the Big Move out of SoCal next year, I intend to run them with my ARC gear and a pair of Gradient SW-63 subwoofers. And a pair of Snell Type J II sound great with both the Shindo and Audio Research gear.
My aching back notwithstanding, it's fun to occasionally swap and move speakers in and out. Provides for different perspectives, a chance to reassess, and to listen to my musical faves anew.
The kicker here is that the jbl L-7 speaker's are not horn speaker's, one of the last fully dynamic speaker's at this level of performance, and they were only $2,000.000 new in 1992, sound way more expensive compared to alot of speaker's today, my opinion.
Douglas_Schroeder (BP), "Vintage gear is good for nostalgia trips and the audiophile on a lower budget (in fact, very good for them), but not great for building superior audio systems."
As I have often found arrogance the companion of ignorance, I could not disagree any more strongly with someone who doesn't believe the Quad ESL57 could hold position in the finest sounding audio systems.
I'm going to have to agree with Al here, I have optimized a 1975 pair of Tannoy HPD's (12" Dual Concentric) with new surrounds, custom crossovers, and cabinets, and they perform equally well with 9 Wpc of SET power, or 500 Watts of Class D driving them.
They are better in every way than my previous speakers, Dynaudio Contour 5.4's, which weren't too bad either.
Almarg But as might be expected given that its design pre-dates the introduction of solid state amps, it is considered to be a tube friendly speaker, and tubes are my preference when it comes to power amplification.
yeah, the design predates moi, by a few years as well. My actual pair of 57's are only about 6 years old. Fresh Wayne Picquet rebuilds. I am using an amp that was specifically designed for them. Music Reference RM10. Its been my personal experience that one needs to be very careful with their choice of music with them. My wife for example, seems to get suspicious, and keeps visiting me down in my space whenever female vocals are playing.
LarryI, your speaker is hardly modest. I am sure it sounds very nice by any standard. My own vintage speakers are further down the scale. As you may recall, I use a 15" Jensen P15LL woofer in a sealed cabinet similar to the Western Electric 753 with an Altec 802 driver in a 32A horn. While I am sure it would sound better with a 713 driver, the 802 still sounds good to my ears.
Ct0517, I would consider the Quad ESL-57 because of the legendary reputation it has achieved and maintained over the years, particularly with respect to its mid-range transparency. I am familiar with its impedance curve that you linked to. The wide variation from high impedances at low frequencies to low impedances at high frequencies, which is characteristic of many electrostatics, will of course result in its sonics being amplifier-dependent to a greater degree than would otherwise be the case. But as might be expected given that its design pre-dates the introduction of solid state amps, it is considered to be a tube friendly speaker, and tubes are my preference when it comes to power amplification.
Perhaps surprisingly, though, in some cases solid state amplification can also produce good results with that speaker. For example the vintage Mark Levinson ML-2 from the 1970s, which is rated at only around 25 or 30 watts into 8 ohms but can double its maximum power capability into halved load impedances down to 1 ohm, has always been considered to be a synergistic match.
Great thread - a couple comments from members stand out to me. Have me intrigued...
Almarg
I’ll say therefore that the only speakers from prior to ca. 1980 that come to mind as some that I might want to use would be the Quad ESL-57 (of course)
@Almarg - as an EE why would you consider this speaker ?
None. I’ve owned and heard so many vintage speakers that I would not seek one to build an extreme system.
Vintage gear is good for nostalgia trips and the audiophile on a lower budget (in fact, very good for them), but not great for building superior audio systems.
@Douglas_Schroeder
When someone jumps into a community pool and makes big splashes; it smacks of an agenda and or a big mistake - like oh oh , wrong pool ! Why is no one wearing a bathing suit here !
So - I am interested to know the 2 best vintage system that you have personally set up; the room dimensions, how they were driven, and the source that was used with them.
Excellent comments by Larry, as always. It's worth noting that many of the Western Electric and Jensen drivers he refers to were introduced in the 1930s!
I agree with you about extreme vintage systems. I heard a monster set up in a huge dedicated room that sounded magnificent. It was based around a Western Electric 555 midrange driver and a 15A horn and twin 18" woofers (looked tiny in this system). Nothing cheap here, the system was originally triamped using three pairs of Audio Note Gaku-On amps ($250,000 per pair list price), but, when it turned out that the tweeter sounded as good with a "cheap" Kageki, one of the pairs of Gaku-On was relegated to the role of back up amp. This type of large horn system is pretty unmatchable for the ability to deliver proper scale, sense of ease and natural flow and excellent dynamics at low volume level.
My much more modest horn-based system is no slouch either, provided I don't play it super loud (I never do that anyway). It is built around the Western Electric 713b compression driver, twin 12" woofers in an Onken bass reflex cabinet and a not that great Fostex bullet tweeter. Not "extreme" by some standards, but not bad either.
There are a few vintage speaker components that I would take over anything made these days, except, perhaps, for some really good Japanese replicas of the same drivers. I heard a fantastic, and reasonably compact, system built around the Jensen M-10 field-coil driver; I haven't heard too many systems sound better. It is unfortunate that some of these drivers, in good shape, go for around $20,000 per driver (and you may need to buy several to come up with a matched pair).
On the not-too-crazy front, a 302 b compression driver, some RCA compression drivers, BTH compression drivers can be used to make systems that, for some people's taste, will sound better than almost any conventional system out there. Vintage can be both "extreme" in terms of performance, and budget-friendly.
Jbl L-7 , 4 way speaker's, titanium laminated tweeter, cross over at 900 htz, 30htz to 27khz, bi-amp speaker's that hugely improve with high quality speaker post jumper cable's from bottom post to top post, very musical, with a unsuspected excellent sound stage, naturalness, transit speed is off the charts for a 1992 speaker.
Douglas completely misunderstood the original question. Extreme system is not the point of this thread. Onhwy61 simply stated that instead of building an extreme system some folks may want to instead just listen to music. I among many others happen to agree. Doug your an elitist snob.
Doug Schroeder needs to hear an "extreme" (his word) vintage speaker system. If he does, I predict he will change his opinion that vintage is only suited for "lower end systems" (his words). To be clear I am not talking about speakers you will find at yard sales. For example, I am thinking of the pair of Western Electric 757 speakers at the 2011 RMAF. That system had an engaging musical realism unlike any modern speaker in my experience.
onhyw61, not intending to put words in your mouth; likely a misread. I posted twice because my first post was so delayed it seemed that it was not going to be posted. I'm not trying to bash lower end system users, just share my experiences.
Douglas, you put words in my mouth. I never said anything about "music lovers". I simply stated that vintage loudspeakers are good for people listening to music. In two separate posts you mentioned how vintage loudspeakers would not be suitable for extreme or superior systems. Whether that is true or not, I don't know, but that is not the question the OP asked. I detect a
onhwy61, I did indicate vintage gear good for those audiophiles on a lower budget. So, why do you seem to create a dichotomy with the insertion of the word "instead," as though those pursuing higher end systems are not music lovers? Perhaps I misinterpreted your post, so clarification would be good.
However, if you are trying to suggest that there is some advantage in seeking lower cost gear as if this means a person is a "music lover," as opposed to those who seek upper end systems, here is my thought. Allow me to pose a question; If people who love the gear and build fancy systems are not music lovers, then why are not also the people who amass huge media collections and don't even play half of it not considered collectors and not music lovers? I see a definite bias and negative attitude in regard to the phrase "music lover" in this hobby which skews one way. :(
Find a pair of vintage JBL Century 100’s (circa early- mid seventies). These are hands down the winner in this post. IMO. Refurbished, these speakers will blow away most of these others mentioned, in terms of musicality, bass, liveliness, and engaging sound. Period!
I loved the ADS L-710s and 810s, the IMF speakers from that era were also very good as were the Spendors. And let's not forget the KEF 105 Series, truly great sounding speakers that imaged better than ything else I heard. Oh yeah for a small standmount, it was hard to beat the KEF 103.2
I have tannoy hpd 315 drivers from i think 1976 in new custom made cheviot cabinets. These are outstanding speakers. Very much the opposite of modern hi fi and for that reason many may not like them. The sound is sweet, musical, with great presence, soundstage and texture. I was surprised that nelson pass uses these in his personal system. They seem to have a cult following but arent mentioned much on this site or in magazines.
But are they appropriate for people who aren't building extreme or superior audio systems, but instead want to listen to music? Ancient loudspeaker theorists would argue YES!!!
Vintage gear is good for nostalgia trips and the audiophile on a lower budget (in fact, very good for them), but not great for building superior audio systems.
I'm using a pair of circa 1989 Klipsch Chorus II's as my everyday main speakers. I found a mint pair in oiled oak on craigslist a few years ago, and refurbished them with new crossovers and horn diaphragms.
They might not be the most "accurate" speakers ever made, but they do some things amazingly well. Great speaker for classic rock, and big band music on vinyl sounds amazing.
My bedroom system uses a pair of (modded) hafler 300 speakers (http://www.hafler.com/pdf/archive/Model_300_speaker_man.pdf) and in my living room I have a pair of Ryan Acoustics MCL-3. Both circa 1980's I believe. I'm very happy with both. in my music room on the other hand I have 2015 speakers :-)
Quad ESL. I had a pair of bronze in the 80s and sold them. I was never happy with what I'd lost - that spotless window to the music My current black pair are outstanding.
Grew up with a pair of KLH 1's, the ones with the "bass computer", hooked up to a cool looking Phase Linear amp. They're still at my mom's house, powered by an ancient Hafler amp. And, they still sound rediculously good.
She offered them to me several times, and honestly, if I ever wanted to give up the chase of "you are there"ness with current audio gear, and simply wanted good sound to enter my room, I'd take them in a heartbeat. I also think she'd miss them more than she would know till they were gone.
Honestly, I don't know that many speaker brands back then cared about imaging and soundstaging as much as sounding frequency coherent, and I don't view that as a bad thing. I can't say those speakers ever made musicians appear in a room before me, but they still make music sound better than alot of speakers I've heard or owned. Top to bottom, they are very solid. I've owned speakers that cut razor sharp images, and aren't half as musical sounding as these.
I think if I ever decided to give up chasing the dragon, and just wanted good sound to fill a room, I'd pick up and refoam a used pair, and be very happy using them daily.
The LS 3/5a from Falcon is making a very big splash. Stereophile finalist for speaker of the year and Recommended components Class B. Not bad for a 50+ year old design.
I have a pair of Advent Legacies from the 80s Jensen era. Definitely midfi, but non-fatiguing and very good bass. Somewhat veiled and polite, but ideal for used $1 classic rock Lps. Surprisingly, I put on some vintage "smoker" sax jazz and they sounded nice. Vocals are a bit flat. I'm going to refoam my orig Advents over Xmas.
Hey Schubert- The Allison Threes were the ones made for corner placement. I'm using Allison Ones, which are essentially two Threes together and these are meant to go against the wall but away from corners.
I'm eager to join the modern world but i still love how these sound.
Dahlquist DQ-10s are still the price per dollar king IMHO. They may take some work due to their age, and a decent size tube amp, but then they really shine.
I'll admit this is an older design and has rolled off highs compared to many modern speakers. However, the double bass units and aluminum midrange drivers are still among the best I've ever heard. I've been told that the crossovers can be modified to make the tweeters "spit" a little, but I've never heard a pair like this.
I have a good num of vintage loudspeakers about and a few that are modernized. Mostly I use my Community Extended Leviathans with 4x 15in altec 515b- TAD 4001 midranges- Fostex t500amk2 tweeters. I also enjoy my RCA MI Shearer horns they have a real type of sound quality and even jaded industry professionals have fawned over them.
Right Jim, the transmission line loading of the woofers in the ESS "Trans" series speakers made for unusually deep and tight bass for the time. The dome tweeter in the lesser ESS' was okay, but those RTR ESL's in the Trans-Static were SOTA. Fulton used the RTR add-on tweeter assembly (which contained six of the tweeters) in his Model J loudspeaker in '74, another really good one.
To Bdp24, I am not a hi-fi historian, but may become one if keep asking about the so called vintage stuff. You are right,I must be as old as you at 68.
I fondly remember hearing the ESS Translinear speaker and the Transtatic and was blow away to use an overworked 70's term. A small audio store in Redwood, California carried the line. I fell in love with the sound especially the deep tight bass. I did not have the dough (or room) for Transstatic, and should have gone the extra mile,and bought the Translinear, but settled for the ESS model 7 which was just below the other two, but still sounded outstanding.
One of the key components of the line was the use as you mentioned of the KEF B139 woofer/driver which produced the tight bass. I later found out the tweeters, at least in the ESS 7's were made by Philips; that may have been also true of the Translinears. In the model 7,the Philip drivers tended to sound bright, even in the days before CD's and digital glare.
It is good to know someone still has a pair of these amazing sounding speakers (at least for their time)
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