Have both the 30.1’s and 40.2’s and agree with Harbeth, which always demo them with SS amps for optimum clarity, resolution and dynamics, especially with Hegel amps. They need a lot of something... watts, volts or current to clear them up and sound their best.
I like them with a tube preamp (ARC Ref 5SE with SS amps), which provides some of the qualities of both worlds. They also seem to sound superb with the MacIntosh tube/SS hybrids. |
@bassdude
Hi bassdude, just so i understand are you saying that if a piece of music like the second jazz piece they played on Alan's 2015 YouTube video from this thread which hit a top transient peak of 30 watts will have more clarity, resolution and dynamics if the amp is a SS vs. a tube, both delivering those same 30 watts? Really?
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Ayon Triton III Integrated worked well with Harbeth SHL5 +, triode or pentode options.
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Have used Prima Luna separates. Everything said about them is spot on... |
My two cents...
I use a vintage restored McIntosh MC240 that sounded great with my Harbeth 40.1 (I no longer have). Looks awesome as well, it's definitely a showstopper when people come over.
My audio club friend drives his with an Audio Note Oto Signature SE. It sound fantastic as well and it's surprising what a low wattage amp can do.
With all that being said, I was on a trip to Southern California and visited a dealer down there who played me some Harbeths 40.1 driven by a Quicksilver integrated amp. I was floored, still am, by the sound that came out of those speakers. Now let it be said that his room was totally set for music like mine will never be but it was outstanding. |
@jb505
Aren't all those units tube based amplification?
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Yes,
McIntosh 6L6GC
Audio Note EL34
Quicksilver 6BQ5 = EL84
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another vote for Quicksilver!
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Your best move is to a Bob Latino amp. Either his 35 wpc ST-70 or the 60 wpc ST-120. The 125 watt M125 mono block amps would be serious overkill for you unless you wanted to run them in 65 watt triode mode. The ST-120 is a Mac 275 killer.You can get them fully assembled and tested as well as in kit form. I personally love kits because I feel much more involved in the system, but most on this forum seem to buy their audio the same way they buy their luxury cars. You see very few Bob Latino amps on the used market for a reason. He's sold a ton of them, but people love 'em. He also sells very affordable upgrade kits for the Dyna ST-70 and Mark III amps. |
I have a pair of vintage ARC Classic 120s that keep on impressing me each and every day. I am not technical enough on speakers to choose an amp specifically for a single speaker. I quickly looked up those and they appear to be 85 db sensitivity and 6 ohm. My speakers are Platinum Audio Quattros with a similar freq response with an 86 db sensitivity and 8 ohm impedance. 80-85dbs are my range when listening loud. These amps are amazing and so strong. I have compared several solid state options up to 750wpc and none could match the volume nor dynamics of these ARC beauties. I love having monoblocks so if you were willing to try something of this age you have these and the V140s which are very similar.
If you want more modern I have been told that the ARC REF75 will also amaze and impress. The reviews speak similarly that that piece is magical. I haven't heard one but may try one day. I wouldn't let the 75wpc discourage you.
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@aj523 What I’m saying is... very clearly... Harbeth shows their speakers with SS amps, and suggests you use a SS amp for the clearest sound from their speakers - you will often see them at shows driven by Hegel amps. And that has been my experience - they have greater clarity, resolution and dynamics with the SS amps I’ve heard them driven by. Their mids tend to be a bit muddy and overwhelming otherwise. Really... Straight from "the Harbeth’s Mouth" in response to my inquiry of them as to whether tube amps could produce the best sound from Harbeths: "That knowledge (tube vs solid state) cannot be condensed into a few lines other than to say that... ’Harbeth do not use tube amps at any stage in the design, listening or marketing process'... for the very sort of indeterminate interaction you mention..." Regards, "Harbeth Support" I can’t be more clear than that... |
I have to agree with bassdude. I have owned the 40’s and currently the SHL5+ and tried Quicksilver V4’s, Quicksilver Mono 120’s, and had a long term loaner Audio Research Reference 75 SE Stereo Amplifier and none of them worked well with the Harbeth’s. I owned QS amps for years and they worked great with my Vandersteen's and I still love them.
My Harbeth’s sounded so much better with a Musical Fidelity Tri-Vista integrated amp, with the 40’s, and with the Aesthetix Mimas and the AX7e on the SHL5+. I just don’t think Harbeth’s and tubes mix. To me it sounds like someone threw a blanket over the speakers with any of the tube amps I tried. But this is my personal opinion and YMMV. We all have different listening preferences and only our own ears can tell us what we like. Also, Harbeth uses Quad SS amps to voice their speakers.
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I've used 3 solid state amps and 6 tube amps with in my 9 years of 40.1 ownership... and tube amps are my resounding preference. But what do I know.
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@bassdude
Makes perfect sense they would show their speakers with the mega watt amps in a public forum, BUT in a real world situation like your home where one MAY want something smooth, musical and warm, softer non fatiguing.... ALWAYS ALWAYS go for the sweet tubes of at least 50 watts at 8 ohms to meet what Alan has spec’ed himself as the minimum requirement. Now home theater solid state all the way!!!
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Just so you know... that is Harbeth Support speaking... not me.
They are the ones that say they only use SS amps to design, voice, test and market their speakers, because they sound better to the general public when driven by the types of amps they design their speakers with.
It may be that some folks prefer a more relaxed, warm, slow sound to the clarity, resolution and PRAT, that SS amps produce with Harbeths - which is my preference... more like the... incredible sound of ATC’s, Ocean Way's or Magico’s, etc. - though, Harbeth’s do not rival those with any type amp. |
It's all about personal preference. I find I find Magico's to sound very nice, but ATC's to be loud and grating.
Reading the original posters preferences for tubes and listening to jazz at moderate volumes, recommending high powered solid state amps is not in his best interest. |
Just to report back on my testing between a Custom built, 8W 300B amp vs McIntosh 275 IV. I listen to soft Jazz music 95% of the time. For those 95% with examples below, I don’t feel the McIntosh 275 is better. Just an impression, I feel the 275 has greater density. But the 300B is a small bit smoother, more relax, sweeter, have a easier listening, and more life like. Not saying the 275 is bad, it is very good. It has the 3D, holographic tube sound, just the 300B is a bit sweeter. So Nice https://youtu.be/LKaAS3ZxiKMCry Me a River https://youtu.be/cizgXSegrkoHowever, for the music below, there is a big difference. It is obvious that the 300B cannot produce the big bass. I can imagine some symphony also need more power on Harbeth. But at the same time, I feel this is not the type of music for Harbeth. The same song play on JBL 4344 monitor with an 8W 300B can produce much better and bigger sound than the 75W MC275 on the Harbeth. My Grandma and Penghu Bay https://youtu.be/zyylBQ3yUOsBut I don’t regret buying the McIntosh a bit, I always want a McIntosh. It definitely sounds good for more music on Harbeth. But instead of using huge SS amp on Harbeth to get the dynamics, I will just simply buy another speaker. Why forcing a square into a round hole? ; ) |
Having said that, I can also understand the response from Harbeth support. They can’t just market their speaker to be good at only a limited type of music, they just can’t say that. |
@pdherer
Exactly listen to the OP! And I hated ATC as well. Grating and didn't think I could listen for hours. Magico is the same ol’ tower speaker I spent the last two months demo'img but overpriced nothing special IMO.
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@bassdude
Wait you haven't heard the speakers yourself with diff amps?
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+1 on the VTA amps by Bob Latino. They offer striking improvements in clarity, soundstage, and dynamics to an already very good stock Dynaco circuit. |
"Me thinks you're beating a dead Harbeth..." Move on... |
I have the LTA reference 40 amp paired with a Don Sachs pre. Stunning combo.
The entire LTA line is excellent. Especially for the money. Beats the snot out of the Prima Luna. |
Now my search of a preamp begins ...
Actually, I have two options now. Because I also want to upgrade my DAC. I am using an Audio GD nfb3. It is an entry level DAC bought maybe 8 years ago. I upgraded to a Topping DX7 pro but the Bluetooth keeps dropping, so I return it. I taste what a new DAC may bring to me. However, I don’t know how much improvement I will get from adding a preamp.
First option is to get a DAC with a preamp out. The focus is in the DAC. Hopefully the output impedance match better than my current DAC which doesn’t have a preamp out.
Second option is to stick with the NFB3 DAC and get a preamp. Max budget is $2000. I read another threads, and I am seriously considering the LTA MZ2. Or for a similar price, I can get a custom built amp/preamp using 71A tube in push pull.
Which route will give me biggest improvement for now? |
First Time posting in any forum... Anyway I had the Leben CS600 paired with Harbeth Compact 7 for three years and they sound beautiful together... The Leben is Rate for 32 Watts with 6L6 tubes but my ears feel more than that. Is a very good integrated. |
@gkr7007
Agreed. Mark’s engineering/architecture of Berning’s technology is a sonic marvel amd masterpiece, so much so that I’m going to be running the zotl ref40 as monoblocks controlling my 40.2 A's through the microzotl.
@gte357s
Why not find a used McIntosh tube preamp so you know you’ll have a match.
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@aj523 actually, I don’t know. Is it better to matching the brand, or try to find “the best” preamp regardless of the brand? The McIntosh preamps are expensive too ... because of the brand, I think. I just feel for the same money I may be able to get something better. For example,
- Coincident Line Stage
- Supratek
- LTA preamp
... or Luxman? I like the brand. |
@gte357s
Ok all tubes i see. My point was that if you start mixing brands of tubes and SS gear, you have to be extra careful with proper impedance matching. Expensive mistakes happen.
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Sorry to add to the long list of recommendations but a pair of Quicksilver V4’s should make a lovely match to your Harbeth speakers. I am pairing mine with Capriccio Continuo Admonitor’s from Italy. I listen to Jazz mostly and while I do like it louder at times in the evenings when I want to get a more concert experience...but not that loud lol. I love female vocal, piano etc.
Bill from Nova Scotia |
A good friend and long time audiophile paired his Harbeth's with the Conrad Johnson Cav 45.
He is using NOS EL 34 tubes. He chose to go for an integrated and used the savings to invest in a substanital Phono Preamp. He is extreemely happy with the investment and states that it has the detailed, holographic and sweet characteristics that he is looking for. When speaking with Rogue Audio during the trials they also recomended trying KT 77 tubes as something to check out.
He was also considering
PrimaLuna Evo 400 integrated
Rogue Audio - Cronus III
Vinnie Rossi LIO
Happy Hunting
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Deja Vu audio in Virginia ran Harbeth 40.2 off large Conrad Johnson tube monoblocks that has to cost a pretty penny but the results were spectacular. |
It was hearing that set-up in that room that clinched it for me and convinced me to buy 40.2's. I remember that only two or three seconds into the first track I let out an involuntary "Wow!" |
Any idea what are those Conrad Johnson monoblocks? I went to the web site and can’t see any monoblocks. Not sure if the ART150 and ART300 are monoblocks or not. |
No unfortunately. But they were pretty big and looked pretty expensive. It was the alpha setup in the store by a fair margin. Deja Vu does a lot of unique things with tube amps. May not even be a current model or perhaps even customized. You would have to call and ask. |
I did some fine tuning at home with my gear after that visit. Think I have things pretty close for a lot less but hard to say without an a/b comparison. I don’t think a setup need be nearly as elaborate to get much of the reward. But it always helps to listen to the best “reference” systems out there as a, well, reference. That and live music.
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You are right. I hear a pair of JBl 4344 at a friends place. Oh gee, that sound can’t get away from my head, and it becomes my reference sound. But I don’t think I can get close to that sound without that speaker. It is the speaker that makes the most difference. Each speaker has a different sound. |
Yes each speaker has a different sound but there are things that can be tweaked/tuned to make key aspects of some more alike, like tonal balance and imaging, as long as the differences are not huge to start with. |
I am using luxman 590 AXII with 40.2.
For near field apt experience. All I need.
I had tried 900u and Many others. |
Try a Carver 275
replace middle 12AX7 with Gold lion and you are Done! Return policy is Crazy and sound is superior!
I’ve tried many! I’ve kept my Airtight 300B reference and the Carver 275.
nothing to lose except the best sound your system can produce!! |
So I doubled down and traded in my LTA z40 integrated for LTA separates - Microzotl preamp and a pair of ZOTL40 Reference run monoblocks. Getting close to 100 wpc at the 40.2 Annie 6ohm impedance and results are quite apparent, quite spectacular...really some tubey magical midrange, serious dynamic sound. Yes I was mistaken- they do love some current! And double Quads of NOS Mullards XF2s!
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Glad to hear that did the trick! Enjoy!!
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@dodgealum
Thx! 2 channel analog system complete. Now its time for room treatments and tweaks!
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@aj523 can you please elaborate more on what are the improvements? My MC275 also can be switch to mono @150W. So, I may buy another 275 down the road, but it is expensive.
alternatively, there is a MA6600 for sale locally with 200W per channel. However, it is a SS, and i am not sure if I will like the sound. But I will never know until I try it, I guess. If it works, I can then sell my MC275. |
I would like to share my update.
After I bought the McIntosh 275, it improves the bass compared to the 8W 300B. But the sound of the JBL 4344 keep swirling in my head, and I have been trying to see if I can make the Harbeth sounds like the 4344.
I wonder if adding a preamp will “improve” the sound further, I borrowed a Luxman a3300, but I don’t like the sound. I prefer the DAC goes directly into the amp. Then I borrow an Adcom GFA555 SS power amp with 200wpc. It sounds very different!!! It is more musical and more dynamic. It sounds “harder” and dryer. Musical instruments sound very good. I think for classical, I likely prefer SS. However, for vocal, it is not as sweet, and the sound is less holographic. But I can understand why many prefer to use big power SS amp with Harbeth. I can see a potential, is it possible to find a SS amp that has the dynamics, but at the same time sound more tubey? I don’t think it is only because of bigger power, but also the SS vs Tube sound.
My budget is limited to $2000 since I spent a lot on the 275. I don’t want to sell it until I find something better. I have two thoughts:
1) get a better tube preamp such as Supratek with a cheaper SS amp. The Adcom GFA555 can be had for $500. Hopefully the tube preamp will give the tube sound.
2) get a better, vintage SS, such as a McIntosh, Luxman, Accuphase ... etc. I am looking at a McIntosh MC2155.
Which one will give me the best of both worlds? |
You are discovering these chameleon qualities of the 40.1. It always sounds good, but different amps, tube and SS, high and low powered, bring out further some of its elements.
This may sound harsh but the 40.1 really deserves more than can be bought with 2K. Perhaps you could find an older McCormack or Belles.
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@gte357s
Sorry just saw your post asking me to elaborate. I don’t have a musical ear and I’m not really expert in describing all the nuances but doubling up and adding a separate preamp with the full zotl architecture implemented clearly changed the sound top to bottom. Everything is more alive more dynamic like it woke up. I was most focused on the bass because thats the knock I got for going with the harbeths to begin with and the bass definitely has more slam more control. Hope that’s helpful. I know @ghasley passionately recommends Pass and Boulder integrated amps. That’s where I would pivot if I revert back to solid state in the future.
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"This may sound harsh but the 40.1 really deserves more than can be bought with 2K. Perhaps you could find an older McCormack or Belles."
Agree 100%....I mean if it were less revealing in nature like a C7, I could see going with a $2,000 amp, but not the 40's. I have been in your position many times, and this is where a good dealer could come in. Find better, and then sell your amp to get it. I'm thinking Luxman class A for my C7's, but I'm a ways off from making the move. Interesting that you mention the JBL's, since my main speakers are Altec Valencia's, with a Werner Jagusch crossover. Very nice setup gte. |
@aj523 “Everything is more alive more dynamic like it woke up.” is exactly how I feel when I try the Adcom. I am wondering if adding a preamp will achieve that. But adding the Luxkit a3300 failed to do so. Maybe I should try the LTA, but the preamp is too expensive. I may retry the MicroZOTL MZ2 as a preamp. |
It sounds “harder” and dryer. Musical instruments sound very good. I
think for classical, I likely prefer SS. However, for vocal, it is not
as sweet, and the sound is less holographic. The classic solid state complaint. Pass Labs makes sweeter sounding amps, but not in your price range I suspect, since you also need some power. I would look into rolling tubes with the Mac and possibly placing it on a platform or other anti-vibration devices to help it out. I would also look at speaker cables, which are ***critical*** when using tube amps on difficult loads- the shorter, the better! |
I am doing more testing last night and swap the IC. I only have two pairs of ICs. One I always feel bright and harsh, has been used between the preamp and power amp. I swapped it last night and it makes a HUGE difference to both MC275 and Adcom. But the improvement is bigger on MC275. For the 275, it becomes more musical and more airy. For the Adcom, it also sound more holographic, deeper sound stage, and less harsh.
Now, both sounds good, at least sound “right”. I need to do more listening. I still feel the SS is more dynamic. I feel I can hear more background instruments, while the 275 is more dominant by the vocal. I am also surprised how good the Adcom sound.
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