I am doing more testing last night and swap the IC. I only have two pairs of ICs. One I always feel bright and harsh, has been used between the preamp and power amp. I swapped it last night and it makes a HUGE difference to both MC275 and Adcom. But the improvement is bigger on MC275. For the 275, it becomes more musical and more airy. For the Adcom, it also sound more holographic, deeper sound stage, and less harsh.
Now, both sounds good, at least sound “right”. I need to do more listening. I still feel the SS is more dynamic. I feel I can hear more background instruments, while the 275 is more dominant by the vocal. I am also surprised how good the Adcom sound. I just happened onto this thread and noticed the comments on the Adcom sound. I may have stumbled onto something when I recently bought a current production Adcom 565SE. I have a tube pre amp and the sound can be quite remarkable with the Adcom. I was trying to understand why, I’ve put about 100 hours on it now, and the sound really is beyond what I was expecting. Non descript speakers too, relatively speaking. Infinity Primus P362(said to perform beyond their price point) while I wait for my Kefs to arrive. I realize that Adcom doesn’t have the pedigree of the various boutique brands being talked about, but perhaps they still be at least somewhat competitive. I should say I do have good cabling all around, and the midrange driver on the Infinitys is pretty good. I guess there really is something to be said for the tube pre/ss amp combination that some swear by in these forums. |
Just to give an update, after replying on 10/10, I acquired a 200W Sony TA-N77ES. I need to take back my words. Among the 8W 300B tube amp, 75W McIntosh 275, and this 200W Sony, I like Sony the most. After listening for the Sony for a while, then switch to the 300B, some of them sounds good, but I feel something is lacking for many songs. The 75W McIntosh is better, but feel a bit slow. The Sony gives more dynamic. Yes, the vocal is not as sweet, but it is not bad. Maybe the Sony TA-N77ES is a warm sounding SS. |
The Harbeth 40.2, the Annie, and 40.3XD have slightly higher sensitivity than the 40.1, 86db vs. 84db, but those newer models have a much higher impedance curve. The curve on the 40.2 stays above 8 ohms throughout almost the entire frequency range even staying around 10-12 ohms which should make it an easier load to drive. That's why tubes above 50 watts sound glorious.
|
@bassdude
thank you very much for your comments. Although I already bought a McIntosh 275, I always tempted to buy a SS with greater than 200wpc. I have an old Adcom and it sounds quite good on the Harbeth. Would there be any good (vintage) SS amp in $1500 range that you would recommend? Such as old Luxman, Sansui, Onkyo ... etc? |
excellent comments bassdude!
i keep my harbeths, proacs and atc's for exactly that lovely contrast in presentation
|
That is... if... you keep your Harbeths.
Given your preferences - if you want to try tubes, you might find you prefer the sound of the Proac D2's driven by the Line Magnetic 518i, or similar. That combination is closer to what you describe you prefer, especially in an apartment or condo - unless you're prepared to drive the Harbeths with a powerful SS amp. |
It all depends on the type of sound you prefer: softer, warmer, less dynamic sound, or crisp, clear, dynamic sound.
If you like the sound of the JBL’s you noted, you’re not going to get that with any Harbeth driven by a tube amp. The closest you may get is with a tube hybrid like the MA252 or MA352 - which is not really a tube amp.
In fact, it’s even hard to obtain that sound with any Harbeth driven by SS amps.
The JBL’s have a "studio monitor" sound - more like ATC’s, Ocean Way’s, Proac’s.
The closest Harbeths get to that type of sound is with powerful, neutral SS amps like Bryston, Benchmark, ATI... or Hegel.
I have the M30.1’s and the M40.2’s - and - I wanted the same sound as you, having heard the JBL 4700’s - both crystal clear clarity and dynamics, but with a holographic sound - which is difficult to attain with Harbeths. I tried ARC Ref 5SE and ARC Ref 150SE in combo, and didn’t get close to that sound.
I then got the Hegel H590 - and "voila" - I now have it... or... as close as I’m going to get with Harbeths, which have a bit of a sound like they’re covered with a warm blanket - heavy on the bass and mids, with less clarity in the upper mids and highs - until they’re awakened with a powerful, neutral amp. Until I got the H590, I was ready to sell the Harbeths and move on.
Even with the H590, they don’t quite have the holographic sound of Maggies, or quite the crystal clear clarity and dynamics of JBL’s... but... they do have much of that sound... and... with a very rich, musical sound a lot like a live performance. In some respects, the crystal clear clarity of studio monitors and JBL’s is too pure for the sound of a live performance - by design to meet the requirements of studio engineers. The Harbeths, driven properly, have more of a live performance sound.
But... if you must try tubes... I’d try the MA352 hybrid, or the Atma-sphere OTL M60’s with AutoFormers, or the Zotl LTA - but, almost anything in your price range will disappoint you - given your stated preferences. You might try the combination of a tube DAC (the MHDT), a tube preamp, and a powerful, neutral SS amp - like a Bryston, or Parasound Halo.
But... in the end... given your preferences... I’ll bet you end up with something like the Hegal H300, H360, H390, or H590 - which is what Alan Shaw of Harbeth prefers, suggests and shows his speakers with.
|
For a tube amp I’d take a serious look at VAC. Wonderful sounding amps. I heard one (170i) through a pair of Harbeth Super HL 5+ 40th Anniversary speakers. A match made in heaven. |
Got to audition a VAC 170i integrated tube amp through a pair of Super HL 5+ 40th Anniversary model speakers. Sounded sublime. So clean, warm, but accurate, crystal clear. Not a particularly colored amp, maybe just a little? I was very impressed by it. I'd have bought it in a heartbeat if I was looking for a tube amp. Gorgeous sounding amp. |
@jjss49
It was a former upgraded Cary V12R (tubes, caps, resistors, internal re-wiring in a few spots) paired with a fully upgraded SLP-98 preamp. Then Mundorf EVO Supreme SilverGold caps (2nd cap upgrade) brought it to another level. That amp inspired the same upgrades on other amps with similar results.
@pdreher
Very Nice. A good friend who passed a few years back had your same RM9 MKII version, always enjoyed the opportunity to listen to it. That amp was the one that pulled me away from ss/mosfet amps to over to tube. |
@decooney
I use a vintage Music Reference RM9 MK2 refurbished by Roger Modjeski in 2017. It's been the best all around amp in my 20 years as an active audiophile. |
@decooney The reason I ask is a buyer of my last EL34 (Triode/Ultralinear) amplifier paired it with his Harbeth 40.1s. He called me shocked about how much better it sounds than his former mono amps originally 2x the price of the amp he bought from me. forgive me if i missed it down the line of posts, but what amp are you talking about? |
Or LTA z40 Ref mono
92 wpc
Circa 1960 EL34 Mullards EF2
Phenomenal tone balance. DEAD quiet |
@pdreher ...but acknowledge synergy is key when it comes to matching tubes to tube amps and speakers. What amp(s) are you using? Are they stock or upgraded amplifier(s)? The reason I ask is a buyer of my last EL34 (Triode/Ultralinear) amplifier paired it with his Harbeth 40.1s. He called me shocked about how much better it sounds than his former mono amps originally 2x the price of the amp he bought from me. Over a year of messing around, we eventually concluded the upgraded coupling caps inside truly brought the amps/tubes to an entirely new level. Test repeated with four other amps, thus achieving the same results. He's carried that same amp to several buddies homes, surprised at the difference upgrades make. Now truly hearing each tube difference now, due to the internal upgrades alone. I was stuck years back on tube rotation with little difference. Other upgrades, caps, opened a whole new door of sound. A local 50-year tech mentor helped us a lot. Always appreciate wisdom and experience from those who paved the way... :) |
@decooney
I did try well matched RAM Gold Lion KT77's with my 40.1's and just found them to be "okay", as they lacked the bass of Gold Lion KT88's and the warmth of RAM EL34's. Not my favorite tube for my application... but acknowledge synergy is key when it comes to matching tubes to tube amps and speakers. |
@pdreher
Have you ever tried or considered a set of well matched Genelex Gold Lyon KT77s?
While I tried the same KT88s and EL34s as you in former amps I owned, several audio friends and members on this site have provided very positive feedback on the KT77s for a particular result and type of sound. Rarely do I see comments someone does not like them. Not as much kick as KT88 yet musical midrange like EL34s too; a blend of sorts, fwiw.
|
I preferred Gold Lion KT 88's with my recently retired 40.1's, then moved to warmer RAM EL34's with my newly acquired, more neutral 40.2 Anni's. |
@yogiboy
Very Nice! Goes to show good tube amps last and can be used with a variety of speakers. Would love to try my QS Mono 120/KT150 tube amps with some Harbeth 40.2s to contrast and compare to my own custom built speakers.
Will keep my eye peeled for anyone who has paired QS with 40.1 or 40.2s, Thanks! |
|
@yogiboy Any Harbeth that I have owned sounded great with Quicksilver amps!!
http://quicksilveraudio.com/amplifiers/ Hey yogiboy, good to know. Several colleagues with QS and others with Harbeths but not together. Which of the QS amps have you tried with Harbeth 40.1 or 40.2 speakers (if any) and and had good luck? And, stock or upgraded tubes used? Thanks in advance for your reply. |
I’m not sure about the 40.1, but the newer models, the 40.2 Anniversary and 40.3 XD have an impedance curve that runs about 8 ohms and higher and rarely dips below that, so a pretty easy speaker to drive. Your only question would be how loud you want it to go which is based on your room, listening position, music you listen to and your preferences. |
I am doing more testing last night and swap the IC. I only have two pairs of ICs. One I always feel bright and harsh, has been used between the preamp and power amp. I swapped it last night and it makes a HUGE difference to both MC275 and Adcom. But the improvement is bigger on MC275. For the 275, it becomes more musical and more airy. For the Adcom, it also sound more holographic, deeper sound stage, and less harsh.
Now, both sounds good, at least sound “right”. I need to do more listening. I still feel the SS is more dynamic. I feel I can hear more background instruments, while the 275 is more dominant by the vocal. I am also surprised how good the Adcom sound.
|
It sounds “harder” and dryer. Musical instruments sound very good. I
think for classical, I likely prefer SS. However, for vocal, it is not
as sweet, and the sound is less holographic. The classic solid state complaint. Pass Labs makes sweeter sounding amps, but not in your price range I suspect, since you also need some power. I would look into rolling tubes with the Mac and possibly placing it on a platform or other anti-vibration devices to help it out. I would also look at speaker cables, which are ***critical*** when using tube amps on difficult loads- the shorter, the better! |
@aj523 “Everything is more alive more dynamic like it woke up.” is exactly how I feel when I try the Adcom. I am wondering if adding a preamp will achieve that. But adding the Luxkit a3300 failed to do so. Maybe I should try the LTA, but the preamp is too expensive. I may retry the MicroZOTL MZ2 as a preamp. |
"This may sound harsh but the 40.1 really deserves more than can be bought with 2K. Perhaps you could find an older McCormack or Belles."
Agree 100%....I mean if it were less revealing in nature like a C7, I could see going with a $2,000 amp, but not the 40's. I have been in your position many times, and this is where a good dealer could come in. Find better, and then sell your amp to get it. I'm thinking Luxman class A for my C7's, but I'm a ways off from making the move. Interesting that you mention the JBL's, since my main speakers are Altec Valencia's, with a Werner Jagusch crossover. Very nice setup gte. |
@gte357s
Sorry just saw your post asking me to elaborate. I don’t have a musical ear and I’m not really expert in describing all the nuances but doubling up and adding a separate preamp with the full zotl architecture implemented clearly changed the sound top to bottom. Everything is more alive more dynamic like it woke up. I was most focused on the bass because thats the knock I got for going with the harbeths to begin with and the bass definitely has more slam more control. Hope that’s helpful. I know @ghasley passionately recommends Pass and Boulder integrated amps. That’s where I would pivot if I revert back to solid state in the future.
|
You are discovering these chameleon qualities of the 40.1. It always sounds good, but different amps, tube and SS, high and low powered, bring out further some of its elements.
This may sound harsh but the 40.1 really deserves more than can be bought with 2K. Perhaps you could find an older McCormack or Belles.
|
I would like to share my update.
After I bought the McIntosh 275, it improves the bass compared to the 8W 300B. But the sound of the JBL 4344 keep swirling in my head, and I have been trying to see if I can make the Harbeth sounds like the 4344.
I wonder if adding a preamp will “improve” the sound further, I borrowed a Luxman a3300, but I don’t like the sound. I prefer the DAC goes directly into the amp. Then I borrow an Adcom GFA555 SS power amp with 200wpc. It sounds very different!!! It is more musical and more dynamic. It sounds “harder” and dryer. Musical instruments sound very good. I think for classical, I likely prefer SS. However, for vocal, it is not as sweet, and the sound is less holographic. But I can understand why many prefer to use big power SS amp with Harbeth. I can see a potential, is it possible to find a SS amp that has the dynamics, but at the same time sound more tubey? I don’t think it is only because of bigger power, but also the SS vs Tube sound.
My budget is limited to $2000 since I spent a lot on the 275. I don’t want to sell it until I find something better. I have two thoughts:
1) get a better tube preamp such as Supratek with a cheaper SS amp. The Adcom GFA555 can be had for $500. Hopefully the tube preamp will give the tube sound.
2) get a better, vintage SS, such as a McIntosh, Luxman, Accuphase ... etc. I am looking at a McIntosh MC2155.
Which one will give me the best of both worlds? |
@aj523 can you please elaborate more on what are the improvements? My MC275 also can be switch to mono @150W. So, I may buy another 275 down the road, but it is expensive.
alternatively, there is a MA6600 for sale locally with 200W per channel. However, it is a SS, and i am not sure if I will like the sound. But I will never know until I try it, I guess. If it works, I can then sell my MC275. |
@dodgealum
Thx! 2 channel analog system complete. Now its time for room treatments and tweaks!
|
Glad to hear that did the trick! Enjoy!!
|
So I doubled down and traded in my LTA z40 integrated for LTA separates - Microzotl preamp and a pair of ZOTL40 Reference run monoblocks. Getting close to 100 wpc at the 40.2 Annie 6ohm impedance and results are quite apparent, quite spectacular...really some tubey magical midrange, serious dynamic sound. Yes I was mistaken- they do love some current! And double Quads of NOS Mullards XF2s!
|
Try a Carver 275
replace middle 12AX7 with Gold lion and you are Done! Return policy is Crazy and sound is superior!
I’ve tried many! I’ve kept my Airtight 300B reference and the Carver 275.
nothing to lose except the best sound your system can produce!! |
I am using luxman 590 AXII with 40.2.
For near field apt experience. All I need.
I had tried 900u and Many others. |
Yes each speaker has a different sound but there are things that can be tweaked/tuned to make key aspects of some more alike, like tonal balance and imaging, as long as the differences are not huge to start with. |
You are right. I hear a pair of JBl 4344 at a friends place. Oh gee, that sound can’t get away from my head, and it becomes my reference sound. But I don’t think I can get close to that sound without that speaker. It is the speaker that makes the most difference. Each speaker has a different sound. |
I did some fine tuning at home with my gear after that visit. Think I have things pretty close for a lot less but hard to say without an a/b comparison. I don’t think a setup need be nearly as elaborate to get much of the reward. But it always helps to listen to the best “reference” systems out there as a, well, reference. That and live music.
|
No unfortunately. But they were pretty big and looked pretty expensive. It was the alpha setup in the store by a fair margin. Deja Vu does a lot of unique things with tube amps. May not even be a current model or perhaps even customized. You would have to call and ask. |
Any idea what are those Conrad Johnson monoblocks? I went to the web site and can’t see any monoblocks. Not sure if the ART150 and ART300 are monoblocks or not. |
It was hearing that set-up in that room that clinched it for me and convinced me to buy 40.2's. I remember that only two or three seconds into the first track I let out an involuntary "Wow!" |
Deja Vu audio in Virginia ran Harbeth 40.2 off large Conrad Johnson tube monoblocks that has to cost a pretty penny but the results were spectacular. |
A good friend and long time audiophile paired his Harbeth's with the Conrad Johnson Cav 45.
He is using NOS EL 34 tubes. He chose to go for an integrated and used the savings to invest in a substanital Phono Preamp. He is extreemely happy with the investment and states that it has the detailed, holographic and sweet characteristics that he is looking for. When speaking with Rogue Audio during the trials they also recomended trying KT 77 tubes as something to check out.
He was also considering
PrimaLuna Evo 400 integrated
Rogue Audio - Cronus III
Vinnie Rossi LIO
Happy Hunting
|
Sorry to add to the long list of recommendations but a pair of Quicksilver V4’s should make a lovely match to your Harbeth speakers. I am pairing mine with Capriccio Continuo Admonitor’s from Italy. I listen to Jazz mostly and while I do like it louder at times in the evenings when I want to get a more concert experience...but not that loud lol. I love female vocal, piano etc.
Bill from Nova Scotia |
@gte357s
Ok all tubes i see. My point was that if you start mixing brands of tubes and SS gear, you have to be extra careful with proper impedance matching. Expensive mistakes happen.
|
@aj523 actually, I don’t know. Is it better to matching the brand, or try to find “the best” preamp regardless of the brand? The McIntosh preamps are expensive too ... because of the brand, I think. I just feel for the same money I may be able to get something better. For example,
- Coincident Line Stage
- Supratek
- LTA preamp
... or Luxman? I like the brand. |
@gkr7007
Agreed. Mark’s engineering/architecture of Berning’s technology is a sonic marvel amd masterpiece, so much so that I’m going to be running the zotl ref40 as monoblocks controlling my 40.2 A's through the microzotl.
@gte357s
Why not find a used McIntosh tube preamp so you know you’ll have a match.
|
First Time posting in any forum... Anyway I had the Leben CS600 paired with Harbeth Compact 7 for three years and they sound beautiful together... The Leben is Rate for 32 Watts with 6L6 tubes but my ears feel more than that. Is a very good integrated. |
Now my search of a preamp begins ...
Actually, I have two options now. Because I also want to upgrade my DAC. I am using an Audio GD nfb3. It is an entry level DAC bought maybe 8 years ago. I upgraded to a Topping DX7 pro but the Bluetooth keeps dropping, so I return it. I taste what a new DAC may bring to me. However, I don’t know how much improvement I will get from adding a preamp.
First option is to get a DAC with a preamp out. The focus is in the DAC. Hopefully the output impedance match better than my current DAC which doesn’t have a preamp out.
Second option is to stick with the NFB3 DAC and get a preamp. Max budget is $2000. I read another threads, and I am seriously considering the LTA MZ2. Or for a similar price, I can get a custom built amp/preamp using 71A tube in push pull.
Which route will give me biggest improvement for now? |
I have the LTA reference 40 amp paired with a Don Sachs pre. Stunning combo.
The entire LTA line is excellent. Especially for the money. Beats the snot out of the Prima Luna. |
"Me thinks you're beating a dead Harbeth..." Move on... |
