@mahler123 my current dac is going to glory with me. It gets to a point after 20 years where I’m gonna sit and listen. Enjoying the music is most important to me. Any upgrade at this point probably not worth it for me. I have 55k front end and 25k in speakers and subs. My stuff has great synergy. Time to sit back and enjoy. However, some of us are forever curious!
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I own the Grimm MU1as my streamer and who is also a Nagra dealer. You may actually want to demo the new MU2 which is a dac/streamer/roon endpoint all in one. I run Roon through my whole house via the MU! and it is flawless. Having worked at Phillips in my prior life, the guys from the Netherlands were some of the original team that worked with Sony on the cd player originally. So, these guys really "get it". There was a recent article/review on the MU2 that was outstanding so it is worth a look it. I'm not sure if Grimm is going to be at Axpona but I'm sure one of their dealers will be. Keep me posted on your progress and let me know what you decide to get. |
OP - understood, apologies if I came off as harsh. I believe in full disclosure and that those with a professional interest can and should comment but should always disclose their industry interests. On your question, best I’ve owned is the Nagra Tube Dac. It’s a case study in implementation - you can get newer digital but it’s hard to find better implemented power supplies / analog output stage...that stuff does not get old. It does deserve a proper preamp and good server / transport.
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@woots thanks funny thing you said about the Netherlands. The Infigo Dac designer Hans Looman is from the Netherlands. I will try to get my ear on a Nagra as a reference point. I’ve heard good stuff about them. |
@metaldetektor no problem my man. It’s cool I understand that. I love the hobby first. I stumbled into working with Infigo. He blew my last Dac out the water after a. Home audition. I like people that push the limits to what’s possible. I also like people in our hobby that push stuff to get better. So I understand your points. But I’m an audiophile first. Either way the proof is in the ears and eventually you gotta show and tell through performance. I’m going to do a second system probably using a 2-3k Vienna acoustics or sonus faber speaker using my old kr audio va900 integrated and a Dac. |
Wadax Reference 105 MSB Select II 100 Ideon Absolute 98 Lampi Horizon 97 Lampi Pacific 90
Dave (Farad 3 linear power supply and Mscaler (fed by linear supply) 90 Ideon Ion 89 Wells Audio Cipher Dac II 88
After spending one week with Dave modified with Farad 3 power supply, I upgrade its score from 87 to 90.
I had listened to Infigo Dac during Pacific Audiofest 2022 and 2023.
It is hard to give score due to not optimal show condition.
But it sounds smooth and creamy to me.
If I give tentative score to Infigo Dac it would be around 93.
During recent visit to Mike Lavigne's home, I confirm that Wadax is still shoulder above other Dacs but not within reach of most folks due to high price.
Thomas |
@calvinj They explain it far better than my fumbling. In this price zone the differences are subtle and like I keep on about, it's the gear and room that matter the most. |
@shkong78 thanks for the compliment. I like my method 4 because it is smooth but still gets the detail and is still transparent. Because of my listening preferences I listen to a lot of jazz with horns cymbals and pianos 75% of the time. My method 4 does this in spades and does it with the needed speed because of the music. Thanks for your input on this. |
@wsrrsw yes. At the reference level it becomes a personal taste thing. I like smooth but detailed without being analytical and that’s the best way to describe my dac and personal preferences. |
Some people post stuff they have never heard. I actually let people demo our cables at Infigo. There are 5 people demoing as we speak. So I let you try before you buy. You be the judge in your own system. BOBBY BOOSHAY SHOULDNT BE TELLING YOU WHAT TO BUY OR NOT BUY TRY FOR YOURSELF AND TRUST YOUR OWN EARS. |
The best I've heard is the Wadax Reference in Mike Lavigne's system, and prior to that, the MSB Select 2. In my System, the Rockna Wavedream Signature was a huge step up from all DACs I had heard previously. Both Mike's digital and mine make me feel that from a sound quality standpoint, I could easily live without vinyl. I don't think I'll ever step away from vinyl though, as for me it is a much more involving experience. I was frankly quite anxious about hearing the Wavedream for the first time as I thought my digital was already really good and I really stretched my budget to acquire it. I was afraid there wouldn't be much difference. Thankfully, the differences were immediately and dramatically noticeable. Dynamics in particular were in another league, the music was so much fuller and vibrant, but things like detail, neutrality, and soundstage also improved noticeably. All digital is not the same. |
The best DAC i have owned is the one I am currently using, the Esoteric D-05. I auditioned several DAC's last year to come to a decision. Among them was the Benchmark, the Bryston BDA3, my old EAD 3000Mk3, a Sim Audio ( don't remember the number), and a ARC DAC8. What i really like about the Esoteric, besides the build quality, is that it uses dual mono DAC chips, and this seems to be where it has an advantage over the other DAC's I heard. |
@daveyf i recently demoed an esoteric N01xd. I was actually impressed by it. They make really high level gear. |
This is a great question! I mention brand names to give credibility and context. I have owned a Wadia 16, then to an Oppo 205 with the modwright mod, to an entry Naim Streamer/DAC, to a DCS Bartok, to a pre-APEX DCS Vivaldi Stack, to a Lamizator Pacific, added a Mini DSP SHD for sub crossover, currently have a Lamizator Horizon and a Grimm Mu1 streamer. I rapidily went forward through DACs starting 5 years ago. The changes in sound moving up DACs were smaller incremental improvments. Still the sound did not have "life" to it. It was interesting more for its resolution of details rather than it's engaging sound. One day I decided to run my entire system through the DAC in the MiniDSP SHD, which has many functions including a DAC, but costs only $1400. Doing a shootout with a Vivaldi stack agaist a $1400 multi-tool sounds crazy, and it was...the sounds were dangerously close together. I immedialty decided to sell the DCS gear as sonically I saw the "Value" as a sham. I am not saying the MiniDSP beat the Vivaldi, I am saying it was very close and could not justifiy the price difference. After lots more research I bought a Lampizator Pacific DAC and ran it with my Grimm Mu1. The sound was different in a good way, moving away from the "generic" sound I had found so far. What I think the DCS APEX upgrade was attempting to address is to add "life" to an otherwise pretty lifeless anylitical sound. I am not knocking DCS as they make great gear and super solid software. The Vivaldi DAC was 10 year old technology when I owned it, impressive gear. The Lampizator house sound has more "life" to it than I have found to date in other DACs. When the new Lampizator Horizon came out I took the trade in offer. When I heard the Horizon in my system I easily knew this was the best DAC I had heard to date. The best DAC developers are all focusing on getting "life" put back in the digital rendering. They are getting closer and closer. This is a very exciting time on this digital journey. My parting message after that long write up, is that I found it very hard to sonically justify changing DACs in the 25K and lower region. I could hear differences, but kind of like testing powercords at a lower price point "I think it sounds better, but I'm not certain I like the trade offs". The sub 25K DACs all sound pretty good, but they typically lack that "life" that is so elusive. I am listening to as much "life" in my digital music as I can find and afford with the Grimm Mu1 streamer and Lampizator Horizon DAC. |
@wokeuptobose i can definitely understand your analysis. Some people think folks are being snooty but there is a lifelike experience with a lot of the higher end dacs. When I hear voices it feels like I’m there in the hall with him. It seems like I can hear the reverbs of his voice. In FINK’S song TROUBLE IS WHAT YOURE IN. You feel the voice and the the notes jumping off the guitar in a live show. In the lower end dacs I don’t get that. Some will say the extra 7-20k or more on top of what they paid isn’t worth getting a super dac. For some of us it’s worth it for a lot of folks that’s overkill but when you hear a lifelike performance like that. There is no going back. |
@calvinj I have heard the Esoteric N01XD, but not in my system. I was also very impressed by it. I am a BIG fan of Esoteric gear. |
@daveyf i thought it was really good. I like my dac more but the esoteric got a lot right |
@calvinj I did notice that the upstream gear has a lot to do with the ultimate SQ. In my case, I use a Esoteric SACD player as a stand alone transport. If the server or transport is not that synergistic with the DAC, this can have an impact on the SQ. It does seem that Esoteric DAC's work best with upstream Esoteric transports/servers. Although I have heard some great sound from a Esoteric DAC and a Aurender server. |
@daveyf exactly. I have infigo dac, cables, and amplifier. I actually use a stripped down mini pc with only audio optimized as my streamer and it’s controlled and runs Audirvāna Studio for playback. Great sound. |
Has anyone tried the Holo Cyan 2? It seems to me that DACs are fairly overrated in terms of the difference in sound quality in a system compared to the amp, speakers or initial source. This seems like a quality product at a reasonable price rather than spending $5k - $40k to get some very small differences. |
@dz13 dac is very important. It’s your source. The rest of your system can only reproduce what starts there. |
@calvinj I beg to differ. The DAC is not your source. It converts your digital source to an analog signal. It is in the chain with the source which is your streamer or music files but it doesn't create the music or the type of file that the source comes from. I've tried some different DACs and while I get some differences, I've tried comparing an expensive DAC against a significantly less expensive DAC playing from the same source into the same amp/speakers and didn't find any significant difference that justified the additional outlay of expense. |
@dz13 IME the difference between a good sub $10K DAC like a Lampizator Baltic V4 and a great $25K DAC like a Lampizator Poseidon can only be realized/heard in a high-end system, so it makes no sense to invest $25K in a DAC unless each of the rest of the components that make up your system is $$$$. Ergo, folks who pronounce that there is no point period in a $25K DAC don't own a high-end system and should avoid making blanket statements about expensive hifi gear if they want to avoid sounding like the guy with the smallest *yacht at the posh Palm Beach yacht club. |
DAC is definitely big time important..it changes one form of signal to another completely different animal. Great digital engineering does not always make it to analog. Like Greg i would put tge Wadax in that upper tier but it’s very system / room and preference ( taste ) dependent …. like ALL of audio. I like my Aesthetix Signature but it’s probably time to get some loaners in house for a serious listen. Rockna, Mola, MSB, EMM , Lampizator…. likely to make the list based on what ive heard ( NOT on utube… duh )… so far…. |
@kairosman great points. Try to explain that to some folks and they think we are being uppity. When you have great components you got to feed it the best you can through the entire system. A lot of the time it will require a substantial investment. Like getting a high end dac. |
I am still laughing at your comment that you think the guy with the smallest yacht at a posh yacht club would care what you or anyone else thinks about him. And insinuating that those with less expensive systems who love our music care where we are in some imaginary pecking order. |
Rossini Player/clock sounds very good, particularly when used as a network player via Ethernet. Yes it's expensive but it can also make other expensive boxes redundant, thus offsetting the cost. (No longer need my Aurender N10, and Sonore UltraDigital, plus associated cables/cords/isolation, etc) Holo May KTE was also excellent (via I2S / Sonore UltraDigital / Aurender N10) and I could've happily lived with it had I not been exposed to the dCS gear. That said, if I had to downsize back to the May KTE I think I'd adjust pretty quickly and be just as happy. |
Not accurate, this thread started 6 feet under and stayed there. OPs original post asks for the best DAC anyone has heard. In his next post he mentions it's the DAC he currently owns. About 20 posts later he admits that he is a retailer for the DAC, and then only after someone else calls him out on it. |
Kinda like a turntable isn't source, the vinyl is? |
@jetter no one is calling me out on anything. If it’s the best I heard it’s the best I’ve heard. Regardless. Look I’m a hobbyist first. I enjoy this I like learning about audio. Whether it’s Infigo or not. Look a lot of us are never going to see each other. A lot of us will never hear each others systems or even hear the equipment that some others have. Look I actually loan cables and equipment out. People here will tell you that. I’ve loaned out stuff to folks here. I do it for the experience. I’ve had folks give me long demos of cables and equipment. I want to know what others are using or hearing. But anyway to each his or her own. |
@jetter no one is calling me out on anything. If it’s the best I heard it’s the best I’ve heard. Regardless. Look I’m a hobbyist first. I enjoy this I like learning about audio. Whether it’s Infigo or not. Look a lot of us are never going to see each other. A lot of us will never hear each others systems or even hear the equipment that some others have. Look I actually loan cables and equipment out. People here will tell you that. I’ve loaned out stuff to folks here. I do it for the experience. I’ve had folks give me long demos of cables and equipment. I want to know what others are using or hearing. But anyway to each his or her own. |
@everyone we are all in different places audio wise. Wherever you are in this journey. Enjoy it. Listen to all the stuff you can. Gain as much experience as you can. Trust your ears. Get the best gear you can and don’t over extend yourself doing so. Some of us have more disposable income than others. But don’t worry about it. Just get what fits your system. Do it all in moderation. Some people it’s watches. Some people it’s cars. Some it’s audio. That would be us. If anyone is going to Axpona this month hit me up. I would love to see some of you guys face to face. Infigo will be there. I’m not hiding. Come hear for yourself. Also I would just like to meet fellow audiophiles to out names to face and talk audio. |
I am late to the show on this subjective topic … but here is my 2-cents. best I have heard in order of my preference… Mola Mola Tambaqui. Why … best dense imaging, space between images, and staging width and depth. Uncanny three dimensional presentation while excellent in all other SQ attributes. So I am trying to save my pennies for a Tambaqui. Until then, the 10th lets me go to musical induced euphoria. |
@jetter Not sure why you disagree with me and then provide your own evidence why it is in the ditch. |
@jetter excuse me I should not have been insinuating, I should have been more direct: apropos, you are correct that the guy with the smallest yacht at the posh yacht club doesn’t care what I think since I don’t own a yacht and don’t belong to his club, but he ABSOLUTELY CERTAINLY cares what the dudes who are club members that have bigger, fancier more expensive yachts say and think about him, it’s human nature given his proclivities. As to my point about pecking order, Life as currently ordered in a capitalist world and more directly by evolutionary biology is a pecking order whether we are talking hifi systems, girlfriend’s looks, size/quality of yacht* lol or bank account. Those who denigrate expensive hifi gear or yachts or rich folk for being rich folk etcetera are wasting time and looking some combination of envious/foolish/pathetic. However, I will concede that you might be living in your own world as a Buddhist monk who is free of these considerations/constraints, if so you have my respect 🙏 let us leave it at that? |
I never read a so comical sentence in an audio thread : "the pecking order" ... Jetter is right with common sense... As usual... And tomic601 usually aim at the center with more humor than me and with way less words ...😁
😊 So well said i will not add to that... Ok now i will go to my place in the "pecking order" ... 😁
By the way i am not envious , creative dude are not .... i will go back to music ...With my low cost very good dac.... ( Dac cost must be proportionated to the other pieces of gear no ? ) |
I forgot to say about the "capitalist pecking order" that if you want to understand it you must study Bernard Mandeville not Adam smith or Marx... It is not me who said it it is Hayek who called Mandeville , "our master to us all" ...With 8 Nobel in economy among his students and disciples i bet he know something...( But not so much more than Mandeville the true genius ) Keep your "pecking order" but study Mandeville if you want to understand the ass of the next rooster above you in the "pecking order" .... 😊 Sorry it is stronger than me, i am retired and my job was to coach students readings... Take it well for my book advice i was very good at my job...A not very high job in the "pecking order"... But I miss it ... |
Having owned a variety of top-tier DACs including MSB, Playback Design Merlot, Dreams Series, Aqua Acoustics, Lampizator models, Berkley, and custom-built tube R2R DACs from a Russian contact, I've also sampled and borrowed units from friends. Among them, the DCS stood out as one I struggled to enjoy. While the performance of others ranged from good to lacking, the Playback Design Dream Series shone as an exceptional DAC for solid-state setups. Yet, in my opinion, the pinnacle of audio excellence is achieved by Aries Cerat DACs, particularly the Ithaka and Kassandra LE Series, offering one of the most musical and captivating presentations I've ever encountered. |
For those on a tighter budget, starting with the Helene or Kassandra Ref is a solid choice. While the Lampizator Horizon stands as a strong contender for an excellent DAC, the Aries Cerat Ithaka or Kassandra LE reign supreme in my listening experience. Budget considerations will undoubtedly influence buyers’ decisions. Personally, I lean towards Aries Cerat proves to be more user-friendly and manageable in comparison. |
Agree 100%, grew up a couple of miles from Seal Beach, CA and spent every available minute fishing and surfing off Seal Beach and Huntington Beach piers. Now freshwater.
Not intentional, my bad phrasing. Incidentally, I spent latter years working for largest power company in VT. We built VYNPC, now long decommissioned.
Honestly, I'm sure you have had a huge, positive impact on people's lives in their formulative years and beyond and are very proud of it as you should be. I am stunned at your memory. I am one who thinks having manufacturers, dealers and retailers post here is a positive thing with the caveat that they clearly identify as such. I was just surprised that you were one as I had admittedly skimmed over a lot of your posts and never quite noticed. Let's not agree to disagree.
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Please do keep us in the loop on your search. My digital side is pretty much an over site on my system, mainly because the learning curve is steep. I just use the DAC on my Esoteric K-03XD (a lovely CD transport, mechanically), and a Lumin U1 streamer. This is actually excellent but room for improvement exists. FWIW, I’m extremely interested in the Nagra HD DAC X and nearly pulled the trigger just based on my ownership of the Nagra HD preamp, which is shockingly good. I also did a shoot out between the Nagra HD phono and many other phono preamps and it ended up in the top 3, losing out purely on my subjective taste. Long way of saying, I almost bought the DAC unheard just due to experience with other products. I also like the idea of tubes on the digital side for reasons I can’t logically explain. Id be particularly interested if you get one of the MSB products, the Mola mola, or the Weiss. I will admit I’m not in love with the Weiss chipset. The MSBs get stupid in price and can cost the same as a mid tier Range Rover, but their middle products seem to have most of their features So in my musings, the Mola Mola is the leader, but I’ve literally never heard any of them, except the MSB and it was in a friends house during a party and less than ideal listening circumstances. |
@jetter I left Audiogon years ago. I started to post more recently since we got back from pandemic. I only started on the business side by happenstance. Hans Looman of Infigo flew from Canada to my house 5 years ago after I assisted another company at an audio show. He told me about this amp he had been developing for the last 7 years. I was dismissive at first so he flew down I invited 15 friends over and it proceeded to blow my the amp in my system to smithereens. First I was surprised that he flew to Dallas and I thought so much of him I decided to work with him. That’s how I ended up working with his company. I did it because I saw he was innovative smart and was a good person. But more than that I believed in the product and it gave amazing sound. Man I know so guys come here to sell sell sell. I don’t have to. I have a regular career where I have represented nba players and others etc. I do this because I’m an audiophile that’s excited about what I’m hearing. That’s all. Thanks for your response brother. |
