"Remember, there is no voodoo with these or any other speakers. The WT GT's are what they are... only good, basic, proven acoustical science and much empirical fine tuning. You don't have to defend anything."
That's a good foundation to start out with, but you really do have to consider the subjective qualities that can't be measures. |
"and how does anyone know if WT is legit or not without hearing them? they offer a 40 day in home. comes down to track record, did apple have a track record? or what about Microsoft and this windows idea?"
That's a specious analogy, Jughead. Apple and MS both offered products that were unmatched and unparalleled in their respective marketplaces. They didn't need to claim to be better than similar products costing many times as much because there weren't many of those with reputations to match.
Wavetouch is not setting the bar here; Wavetouch is attempting to convince everyone that it's exceeding a bar already set by larger, more expensive speakers.
In many ways this entire thread has separated the skeptics from the outliers. If Wavetouch proves to be a game-changer in x-amount of years, then you and other customers can look back and know you were trailblazers. Until then, though, I'm simply not comfortable even laying down money I may get back until I hear the product in the first place. Or, until its reviewed by someone professional besides Parttime Audiophile (praise be upon him, of course, for his devotion to this hobby). |
If you posses even the most rudimentary understanding of loudspeaker design, it should be abundantly clear why there is no possible way given the physical laws of this planet, that those speakers cannot be 94db sensitive ... not even close.
And there is no good, proven, acoustical science behind those plastic snowcones they hang off the front. Those aren't waveguides, and they aren't horns. They're nothing more than port tubes, and putting your tweeter and midrange inside a Helmholtz resonator will produce nothing but negative effects. To me at least it's clear why Wavetouch has never posted any real tangible data to back up their claims. The grade school drawings they post in their "Technology" section of their website could not be any more laughable.
The mainstream audiophile journalists assault on science regarding this hobby is the only reason ridiculous constructs such as the Wavetouch speakers are every allowed to pass mustard in the first place. Because they have never applied science in their writings, most of you have no concept of it's application. To myself, someone who has designed around 50 speakers over the last 10+ years by using proper scientific priciples, the outright lies in their specification claims and deceptions of how their re-purposed port tubes work is frankly insulting. And to see so many people swallow their line of BS is disappointing. |
Ah!!
Finally some credible, and refreshing discussion. |
Jackalman,
The fact that you are blasting a patent (anyone can look it up) that was issued by a panel of PHD accredited experts in the field shows that you are not close to the expert you claim to be. Also, saying there could be anything resembling a Helmholtz resonator effect with this design is moronic.
You designed 50 speakers that sold how many?
Its interesting how many 'experts' emerge as a fresh approach begins to gain traction in the marketplace. And these with no stated products of their own who also claim to be an expert of something they didn't create. |
"To myself, someone who has designed around 50 speakers over the last 10+ years by using proper scientific priciples, the outright lies in their specification claims and deceptions of how their re-purposed port tubes work is frankly insulting. And to see so many people swallow their line of BS is disappointing."
If you can do it better, then why don't you manufacture and distribute your own line of speakers? |
Jughead, you hit a nerve with wolfman by going a different direction than what he is more than likely selling which is probably the same speaker that the guy who told you the black color will make them sound better. Sounds like they are cut from the same cloth.
Enjoy the speakers and just report back after you have spent some time with them. Hopefully Wavetouch is very successful and wish them the best! |
The mainstream audiophile journalists assault on science regarding this hobby is the only reason ridiculous constructs such as the Wavetouch speakers are every allowed to pass mustard in the first place. I believe that's "pass muster" - which means to be accepted as adequate based on military parlance. But please, pass the mustard and catsup/ketchup, too! |
Good to see Vapor, I mean Onemanwolfpack, posting here. |
Me selling speakers, that's funny but no. I'm just a DIY'er, and after years of watching all the ridiculous discussions here, I finally decided to sign up and share some actual knowledge.
From now on, expect me to poke my head in whenever I see bogus claims. |
For those of you who need more handholding, here's why the speaker can never be 94db sensitive.
The woofer used - https://www.madisoundspeakerstore.com/approx-5-woofers/sb-acoustics-sb15nrxc30-4-5-woofer/
And then you have to subtract 3db or so for Baffle Step, you end up with 88db at most.
And if you think that hacksaw'd in half port tube produces a gain resulting transfer function in the bass, you don't understand at all the mechanisms in play. It won't, and that's why the manufacturer produces no data to backup the claims. |
Radio Shack big sale save 9K. |
Nothing unusual about vendors generalizing specifications as a marketing ploy.
Its not hard to have 94DB speakers....assuming the lowest octave or so is excluded.
Lots of "snakeoil" like this around. Nothing unique to see here really.
Yes, if its small and advertised as higher efficiency, then either the bass rolls of early by design or something does not add up.
The devil is always in the details. |
Yes, the discussion has finally gotten interesting. I didn't pay much attention to the WaveTouch speaker earlier, but now I thought I would take a closer look. I don't like what I see. I have not heard them, and while the crossover looks "rich", there are some elements which look to me like they employ some odd design decisions.
I would want to hear it simply because it's so unusual, but I strongly suspect it would not be a mountain top experience. Two of the most disturbing design elements are the flared "waveguides" and the "phase plug" used in front of a ribbon tweeter!
I do not think it an advantage to place a phase plug type device in front of a flat, ribbon tweeter. Again, though I have not heard it, I suspect it would cause a tremendous amount of damage to the treble response. Would you put a rock in front of a fire hose to "focus" the treble? The result would be a splaying of the spray. In my experience if a ribbon tweeter is implemented properly, it's not going to be piercing, but this looks like a low tech way to prevent a piercing sounding tweeter, which I would think should be addressed at the crossover, not the driver... It just strikes me as so wrong. :(
I do not know who Onemanwolfpack is, but I must concur with his assessment of the purported 94dB rating; I struggle to believe it. Look at hundreds upon hundreds of small speakers and you just won't find that kind of sensitivity because of the constraints of the enclosure.
I really suspect the accuracy of the claimed 40Hz lower end of this speaker. In my experience a 5.25" driver in a 15" high cabinet is NOT going to do 40Hz, at least nowhere near +/-3dB. Perhaps +/-6 or even +/-10dB, which at that point you may as well forget the measurement altogether. This is in my opinion a perfect example of a "loose specification", of which I write about at Dagogo.com (I would post a link, but I believe I am prohibited from doing so; it may be easiest to do a search in a browser.) in my Audiophile Law "Do Not Accept (Virtually) Worthless Specs". I would guess the real usable performance, i.e. +/-3dB, of the bottom end of this speaker to be closer to 60Hz +/-3dB, not 40Hz. Even if the driver could reach closer to 40Hz, imagine the distortion caused by the driver's excursion. I can't stand tiny bass drivers being driven to the point of sounding like they're popping, but that is what I suspect you'd get with pushing this speaker.
If any wish to condemn me for my perspective on this, feel free. As a reviewer I have to make assessment of products which I will consider to review, and I would not review this speaker. You can bet that if it turns up at a show, I will try to hear it, because I could be wrong, and I have to face up to it if I am. Perhaps it would radically defy my expectations of its performance, but I have serious doubts. I would suspect that if it did sound halfway decent it would be in spite of the design. The speaker may have some good attributes as it appears there are some high quality parts internally, but the thing is not going to defy physics. You can get away with a lot wrong in a speaker, that is, make it sound OK, if you have a great crossover, but the result will still suffer. I'm guessing there would also be people who love horn speakers who would think it's terrific, etc. The spectrum of what people wish to hear from a rig is so varied, it's fascinating. I have heard systems I thought were horrid, and the people in the room were raving. Go figure. :)
I have nothing against WT, and I have never met anyone from the company to my knowledge, but I have serious issues with the purported performance claimed. I would be happy to be offered a demo (note, demo, not review) of the speaker to confront my hesitation, if WT wishes. But, I'm not interested in getting into extended argument or mud slinging. I have tried to make my comments "on point" sticking to the design of the speaker. |
Mapman, you posted as I was writing my post; yes, I concur completely with your comment, "Its not hard to have 94DB speakers....assuming the lowest octave or so is excluded." That is the problem, the claimed low end response with the claimed sensitivity. |
The Grand Teton specs on teh website indicate frequency response down to 42hz but no indication of the roll off so it could well be way down at that point. Another generalized spec that may mean little that might play into a higher sensitivity rating perhaps.
Nothing new to see there people...move on. Happens all the time! A least some reviewers like Stereophile do measurements that provide more insight if anyone cares.
Also given the unique waveguides or call them what you will, I could see where these may well be more directional than most speakers meaning more sound to the front than sides than usual, which could also help sensitivity measures, at least on axis.
So its hard for me to say the specs do not add up. Its also hard for me to say they mean much. Maybe if people hear these and like them someone will take up putting them to more rigorous and quantitative testing. Of course that still does not indicate necessarily how good something sounds or not, just how well they perform from a technical perspective, which might be a useful starting point of information but seldom tells the whole story accurately.
I'm guessing the most unique thing about these might be that they have a unique sound radiation pattern which might be a boon or benefit depending. At least its a different twist. I would like to hear them just for that. |
Actually, seeing its only a 5.25" woofer, its a pretty safe bet not much is happening at 42hz. Also ribbon/folded ribbon tweets like that used are inherently directional as well I read. So the small size and seemingly directional design should help produce a higher than average sensitivity rating with the lowest octave or so omitted by design. I'd expect it does what does well. A 5.25" woofer in a $2000 speaker seems undersized compared to a lot of the competition. Maybe what it does it does well and that's enough in a smaller room. That would seem to be the most realistically one could expect. The 42 hz frequency response spec is the one I would question the most in this case. |
And that's what attracted me to these speakers is the unusual look and the claims on the speakers performance.so it made me want to hear them for myself, and I hear what everyone's saying because I have my doubts also, but willing to give them a shot. I'm out nothing if they don't meet my standards, except a trip to the post office to return them. |
You're under no obligation to justify your purchase. Its your time and money to do with as you please.
"so it made me want to hear them for myself"
But since you are posting, that's the best possible reason to do what you did. |
Ok, I see lots of folks here are striking out here on the 'what-the-heck-are-we-even-looking-at' element of the Wavetouch technology and how it may relate to maker claims, hype, what have you. Having lived with the GT's now since June I'm sure I've had the advantage over you guys of being able to audition them under controlled enough conditions. When you do that you realize right away that something about the technology is in fact uniquely special, but it still may be a trick identifying from there exactly how they do what they do. Only recently I think I've begun to confidently get a handle on what I suspect is at work.
I know the diagrams on his website look pretty confusing, or pretty confused, if that's your take. But, if you look at his descriptions you can begin to tell that all he's really describing in the area immediately in front of each driver (say, the first 6-8" out or possibly a little farther) is the phenomenon of air turbulence. This is what you want to focus on. It is really the key to unlocking everything about the design. Yes, the numbers do at first appear to be too good to be true. But, if you can wrap your mind around this one phenomenon he is trying to describe, then the numbers do in fact add up very well, indeed. But, it will help a great deal with your understanding if you do your best to visualize in 3D what is really going on with turbulence. Think of turbulence as wave cancellation, which it is, but it just may not be as orderly or symmetrical as we may typically think of it in regard to, say, the front-to-back wave cancellation of a bass driver on an open baffle. Turbulence in this case is responsible for degrading the integrity of the newly launched sound wave from the driver. In every speaker design. Normally the turbulence is caused by the very act of the diaphragm launching the waveform...creation and destruction at the same moment. The more turbulence the more degradation of the waveform and therefore of the sound quality in all sonic categories. This is the problem that the Mihorns solve. It isn't that the GT's are creating sensitivity where there was none before. It's that the Mihorns are allowing very much more of the Inherent sensitivity of each driver to pass through them minus that level of degradation. IOW, the inherent sensitivity is being preserved. So, no, the laws of physics have neither been broken nor reinvented. The Iron Law is still very much in effect. The only things that have been removed from the equation are these purely physical (not electro-mechanical) losses that traditionally we have always had to put up with. It may not be so easy to grasp this from the numbers because we are so accustomed to seeing the rules, like the Iron Law, dictate less impressive performance compromises for cabinets of this size, but overcoming turbulence in this way can evidently be quite the game changer. Realize that the implication is that essentially our traditional measurements of driver or speaker sensitivity can now be thought of, in a rather real sense, as 'skewed' in light of this new information. Make no mistake, this is by definition altogether something new in the world. To my knowledge nothing like it has ever been done before. This is a genuinely innovative approach and I believe (at whatever point it begins to happen) that other companies and other audiophiles or reviewers are going to be talking about this technology...and probably for a long time to come.
But, this effect of smoothing out the airflow so that it both speeds up (apparently) the wave launch into the room while allowing those waves to be more intact and coherent upon reaching the lp, is evidently a significantly large one, large enough to do a number of things here all at once. Note that the radically improved Efficiency (not sensitivity) of this speaker system, the noticeably improved sound quality (again, waveforms that are more stable, accelerated and more coherent which in turn is improving the sound quality across the board) and the bass extension and dynamics in such a small cabinet (and yes, BTW, I can in fact confirm for you that the rolloff point for the GT is between 40-45Hz and no higher) are actually all directly related to each other...! It may be a bit of a Rubik's cube to think of it that way, but that appears to me to be what Alex has done. The entire design and all the innovation that goes with it hinges on the successful amelioration of the problem of air turbulence in front of the drivers. And there are no noticeable drawbacks with the sound to speak of, with the Mihorns installed.
If you've been to the website, you've probably seen the videos there of the GT's that have been set up and are playing outdoors. This is not to demonstrate that GT's make swell poolside speakers, but that they can do something pretty remarkable - they can actually sound pretty decent in a nearly anechoic environment. This is where perhaps every other design will fall flat on its face. It is the Mihorn's ability to deliver a fully fleshed out, fast, clean, dynamic, coherent, direct sound that is what is being displayed here.
Whether or not the GT's are your cuppa is up to you, of course, but I'm just outlaying here what I think may be going on with them. |
I find the "turbulence" argument unsatisfactory. |
Onemanwolfpack,
"From now on, expect me to poke my head in whenever I see bogus claims.
Onemanwolfpack (Answers | This Thread)"
That's a good idea. Maybe you didn't see my other post. Why don't we start off by looking at this bogus claim.
"02-09-15: Zd542
"To myself, someone who has designed around 50 speakers over the last 10+ years by using proper scientific priciples, the outright lies in their specification claims and deceptions of how their re-purposed port tubes work is frankly insulting. And to see so many people swallow their line of BS is disappointing."
If you can do it better, then why don't you manufacture and distribute your own line of speakers? "
I'll ask again. If you're so good, where's your designs? There's people who talk, and people that do. The only tool you have is a mouth wrench. |
Zd542 he is making his own speakers... this is Vapor posting under a fake name. They have been caught doing this before (have the screenshots to prove it). |
Guys,
Vapour or not, there were interesting facts brought into the discussion. Too bad there are no speaker manufacturers "actively" participating in this discussion. Someone needs to take a chill pill ;)
As far as I can see, the WT design looks absolutely strange, there is a square or a rectangular tweeter which is clamed to be acoutically couple to a round horn?
WT used to be Mihorn, and were selling those so called horns/cones for a while before they made their speakers, to be stuck to any possible monitors. These cannot be just plastered onto a speaker without proper design. I've not heard WT, not am I interested.
For people who bought WT, and are happy with it, great, to each his own. But for others "use" common sense. |
Wolfman, do you offer a 40 day in home with your speakers? |
Time will always tell. Or in this case Jughead as well once he gets his I hope. |
"02-10-15: Vortrex
Zd542 he is making his own speakers... this is Vapor posting under a fake name. They have been caught doing this before (have the screenshots to prove it)."
He must be pretty desperate for business to come here and argue like a little kid. Mines better!! Not its not my speakers are better!! lol. Well Jughead, it looks like you have some good instincts. |
Vapor might have some cosmetic issues, every company mentioned has some issues. We are in this for great sound, one thing does stand out. The amount of money spent on speakers at Vapor per the cost is amazing for the consumer. i just did some work and found out there is one speaker company who's mark up is close to 70 percent. That means you are paying 5k for a speaker that cost the retailer 2k. If we think that these markups is giving us good value, then so be it. I'm sure you can find other companies similiar. But audiophiles who have been to the shows have said that Vapor blew them away with the performance. If you are looking for a speaker that has a great finish and such, maybe you should buy furniture or a painting. If I went for Vapor, i'd go with a great speaker in a very plain finish and have them to listen to and not for the so called nice finish. I'll use this anology, ou can go get your brakes done and a tuneup for your car at the dealer and spend alot or go to a local person and spend less then half. If you want to buy into the bs that is out there and pay the huge markups, then so be it. I'd rather pay my money for excellent sound and value. I purchased the LSA statements and they are good, but the vapor stiff breeze blew it away. I won't do the speakers from a big company again. |
Amusing, but not completely unexpected, those without ability to make comments of merit would resort to personal attacks and blindly throw darts in effort to uncover my identity. So who am I? I'm the fly in the ointment, that small but irritating voice that won't go away when manufacturers trot out bogus claims and outright lies. I'm here to set the record straight, and choose the cover of anonymity for purpose of my righteous mission.
Turbulence? You'll have to do better than that. First off, the outlandish claims could easily be proven with a simple calibrated response measurement. Something any speaker manufacturer worth their salt should be doing anyway. So why hasn't that been shown? Simple, it would show convincingly that the claims are bogus. And second, the entire concept is nothing but an ill conceived straw man. Set up the boogieman of turbulence, then knock him down with your saw'd in half port tubes. Except, there is no problem of turbulence, there is no air movement. To imply there is shows a complete lack of understanding of the mechanisms at play. Sound waves are not mass, no fluid is displaced, all they care about is density of the medium they're passing through, and air in this system is non-compressible so constant. The whole argument is implausible, but could be proven quite simply if it had merit ... which it doesn't.
And there are other BIG problems with the smoke stacks. Long areas of constant cross section which will make it act as a Helmholtz resonantor, and have easily measurable resonances (distortion) of their own. And the fact that the physical dimensions of the woofer pipe would limit it from having any effect below (I'm guessing) 500hz.
The drivers Wavetouch use are just fine, good in fact. I've used the SB Woofer and believe it's one of the better mid-bass drivers in it's price range. It is NOT however under any circumstance capable of 94db sensitivity. The Dayton AMT tweeter is also pretty decent, and putting it in a Birch cabinet is admirable. Wavetouch would be better off without those dopey horns, and making non-fabricated claims about the performance. Because that speaker, assuming the crossover is proper, could stand on it's out at $2000 without the aura of BS surrounding it. |
"WT used to be Mihorn, and were selling those so called horns/cones for a while before they made their speakers, to be stuck to any possible monitors. These cannot be just plastered onto a speaker without proper design."
How can you make comments like this on a speaker that you've never heard?
"For people who bought WT, and are happy with it, great, to each his own. But for others "use" common sense."
So for the people that bought WT and are happy with them, you can't count that as using common sense? And you claim to know what common sense is?
You're just like the other one. All talk that you can't back up because you have no experience. Mouthwrench #2. |
LOL..genius postings I see, you guys should worry about other things then if Vapor is posting or not..idiotic. I'd love to meet you girls are Expona... |
Even though I have no common sense I cant wait to hear these speakers. and mouthwrench #1 and #2 make me want to hear them that much more. the anticipation is killing me! |
|
For me 25K would probably mean mbl all the way, hey!
Maybe if I hit the lottery but not likely. As much as I love the good sounds of music, I don't know if I could justify 25K worth of speaker. Maybe in teh great room of some mansion that I will never own. |
"So who am I? I'm the fly in the ointment, that small but irritating voice that won't go away when manufacturers trot out bogus claims and outright lies. I'm here to set the record straight, and choose the cover of anonymity for purpose of my righteous mission."
And once again, all talk.
"First off, the outlandish claims could easily be proven with a simple calibrated response measurement. Something any speaker manufacturer worth their salt should be doing anyway. So why hasn't that been shown? Simple, it would show convincingly that the claims are bogus. And second, the entire concept is nothing but an ill conceived straw man. "
Its always easy with the mouth. Why don't you show us then since your so smart and obviously know better? You talk but you can't back anything up. To the rest of us, its clear that you don't know your ass from your elbow. Otherwise, you would be able to do the "simple" stuff that you claim to be able to do, but clearly can't. I wouldn't trust you to build a speaker, but if I was a politician, I may let you write my speeches. |
Jughead did you look at the Nola KO speakers? |
I hope Wavetouch proves the critics wrong.
I looked at the website. I think there is a good deal of analogy directed at the layperson applied there to describe what they are trying to do. It kinda works to describe what teh advertised benefit is but of course is lacking in technical detail as is the case with many product websites targeting the average person and not just engineers that might be able to sort through things.
I'll give it credit for being unique. Can it deliver particularly in the value category? We'll see. It seems to use some good components as mentioned and I would expect it to be more directional than otherwise, which is a somewhat unique design goal and is the jist of what they are trying to do I think. Kinda taking things in the opposite direction from teh norm than omnidirectional speakers. There could be unique benefit with that if done even moderately well that might help justify the cost for what seems to be an undersized product for teh cost otherwise on teh grand scale of things. Time will tell. Jughead perhaps even sooner. I see the glass maybe to be more half full than half empty with this product. At least its something a little different. We'll see soon I suspect if its the deal deal or just another passing gimmick.
|
When I was looking for postings on Vapor either here or other sites I saw a lot of drama. The "Wolf" likes birch ply because that is what Vapor uses. Pretty clear who "wolf" is and I would not touch the company with a ten foot pole. Go to Audio Circle and look up Dragon_vibe's DELETED posts.
"ALARMING" It would be a very stupid idea to part with your money! It makes sense why they were deleted. |
Lets vaporize this whole thread!!!
How else does a $10k question turn into a Vapor discussion. Seriously folks, let get back to the original topic. I was hoping to hear about PMC, Spendor, ATC, Proacs, etc. |
"02-11-15: Milpai
Lets vaporize this whole thread!!!
How else does a $10k question turn into a Vapor discussion."
The OP was considering Vapor and this is where the discussion led.
"I was hoping to hear about PMC, Spendor, ATC, Proacs, etc."
I've had a few pairs of ProAc and thought they were excellent. You can do far worse. |
I'm sensing that some Wavetouch agents are attempting to divert us from the issue at hand which is their fabricated claims.
Someone please explain the obsession with Vapor, I assume you mean Vapor Audio? I've ran in the same circles with Pete for many years, and he can rub people the wrong way. Is that what this is about? Or is it just an attempt to again, avoid the issue at hand?
I am not here to sell you anything. Desire to leave my chosen field, which is quite lucrative, is nonexistent. I build speakers on weekends and am quite good at it, because speakers are very very simple machines dominated by easily understood sceintific principles. Those of you who are befuddled by science buy into fabricated grandiose claims, and are the reason why audiofools are perceived the way they are. Anybody who's able to tie their own shoes could self-educate to the point where making a smart decision about speakers is simple. So why do you not begin that simple journey? Instead opting to just throw money at the problem and see what sticks.
An entry level understanding would teach you that there is no way around the physics of our Universe, there is no free lunch. And the bogus claims would immediately be identified as such. As mentioned above PMC, ATC, ProAc, those are all speakers designed and built by engineers who understand the laws of our Universe and apply them appropriately. But I suppose they're just not exciting enough for some because they don't promise 20 more years of life expectancy and for your wifes breasts to double in cup size.
Now who will I be accused of being next? Whatever it takes to divert attention from the obviousness of my text. |
Zd542,
Good to know about ProAc. I look forward to AXPONA to hear speakers in the $10k range.
Anyone has opinions on the Spendor D7? The reviews are all good, but not seen them come up in discussions on these forums. |
02-11-15: Zd542 writes: To the rest of us, its clear that you don't know your ass from your elbow. Please don't do that. You don't speak for us, and you cannot assume we all agree with your judgement of an AudiogoN member. Regards, |
PMC are also fantantic speakers, well worth a look. |
This is by far the best speaker buying experience I've ever had! I did look into the pmc but their terms and condition section was like a selling my soul contract. if the wavetouch isn't my thing I would like to hear Wolfman's stiff breeze if they would offer a 40 day in home trial. |
News flash to the brilliant ones who don't get it, do you know the markup from dealer to retailer is sometimes 70 percent..so you audophiles who want to spend 10k on a speaker that cost the retailer 4-5k..go right ahead!!! Or, look for a conmpany that doesn't have those margins and actually puts more into the speakers then that!!!!! |
"Please don't do that. You don't speak for us, and you cannot assume we all agree with your judgement of an AudiogoN member.
Regards,
Metralla (System | Answers | This Thread)"
You're right. I shouldn't have said that. I didn't think before I hit the enter key. It's no excuse, but that's what happened. |
I think you've got the right attitude, Jughead. Keep right on truckin'... |
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which company uses the best parts, tweeters and drivers and capacitors..makes there sound so fullfilling on many fronts?? Wilson..nah..u fill in da blanks |
