"I got a pair of Mag 1.7s a year ago and at my budget, that's as good as it's going to get for me."
I would say that the Magnepan is a must audition. I tried a pair of 1.7's myself and thought they were just OK. I was kind of surprised because I thought I would like them very much. Still, I think they are definitely worth an audition, given how many people really like them. |
"Looking to buy the end of game speakers"
What does that mean? |
"at that kind of money I'm looking for new. and to answer zd542s question the end of game speakers means never feeling the need to buy another pair of speakers again."
What you're attempting to do here is not plausible. First, there's so many speakers to choose from, you have to be the one to make the selection. We all have different tastes. I could recommend a pair of 10k speakers, and you may hate them.
There's also the question of what electronics you will be using. The results you get are going to be directly related to every component in the system, not just the speakers. And the more expensive and revealing the speakers are, the more important this becomes. You can't listen to any single stereo component. It has to be as part of a system.
If your goal is an 80/20 split between music and movies, I would recommend that you do a 2 channel system only. Maybe do a separate, less expensive, theatre system in a different room. If not, you are going to pay dearly for the 20% that is the theatre portion.
Most important, is you need to verify that what you want is achievable. If you can't go out and demo some gear that you know you will be able to live with, you can't expect to achieve your goal in your listening room. I know its not the easiest way to go about this, but if you really want to get the last pair of speakers that you will ever buy, you have to do it right, or it won't happen. |
"If you hear less than that at the demo, it's the setup and not the speakers. Setup is not that complicated, but it does take some diligence. Simliarly, amplification doesn't have to be expensive or exotic, but it has to be a good fit. Those 150 wpc NADs will do just fine. Me? I'm using an all-tube front end driving a 30-yr-old Perreaux PMF-150 (100wpc) power amp to great effect."
There was no store demo to speak of. I had them in my house for a little over a year. I opted to buy them because I didn't think a store would be able to set them up right, and I have more than enough equipment to try them with. They weren't bad, I just thought they were way over rated. The speakers weaknesses became much more apparent when I put them directly next to other speakers in the same room. I think a lot of people base their opinions on old reviews. I could see them being much more competitive back in the 70's and 80's, but traditional speakers and electronics have been able to overcome many obstacles in recent years to the point where its not mandatory to use such a design to get the same qualities that only a planar speaker could provide. |
"Klipschorns"
Sounds like something you would have a doctor remove. |
"01-11-15: Jughead
I'm thinking the same thing, buy some less expensive speakers and use the rest of the money for other parts of my system."
I don't know if you'll get the results you want doing it that way. If you go after a pair of 5k speakers, 3k preamp, 2k amp,,,, or whatever, that's exactly what you are going to get. You end up with a collection of nice components. I would recommend that you focus on the main issue, and never loose site of it. And that is to put together an audio system that keeps you happy. But to do that, you really need to take a different approach. Start off by finding a sound you like. Once you have that, then you can set out to build a system that reproduces it. I understand it can be more work to do it that way, but keep this in mind; if you don't properly plan out your system beforehand, and shoot for a goal that you know is achievable because you heard it, you can't expect to get good sound.
Setting price points for individual components can really hold you back. For example, if you have 5k to spend, its entirely possible that you may pick a $1000 pair of speakers with a $4000 integrated amp. You just never know. I have something like this in my own systems. In the main system, I have a $2000 pair of speakers, and in my 2nd system, the speakers cost $10000. I think the cheap speakers are far better. And that's just the way it goes in audio. There's so many variables. |
"usually don't go with bookshelf speakers but whenever I look at other speakers I go back to the breeze, just something about the look and design, the only way I heard them was on a youtube video, and they sounded good over my cheap lap top."
Its definitely a fool proof plan. No doubt you'll be successful. |
"Some of my most rewarding moments listening to music at home, were decades ago, played through a pair of Magnepan MG1's powered by a Yamaha receiver. The enormous amount of joy I was able to derive from that rather humble system is unforgettable."
I bet you couldn't sell them fast enough. lol. Sell your best components and buy ones you hate. Its the audiophile way. I remember selling my Unity Audio Sig 1's (best speaker I ever had up to that point.) and squeezing a pair of B&W 800's into my small NYC apartment. It was a bloodbath. Those things got me sitting or standing. From my listening chair, the tweeters hit my ears like ice pics. The pointy edges got me as I was walking to the bathroom in the dark. Broke a toe. Had to set them up backwards so they pointed in. Coolest looking speaker I ever had. |
"Or, you could have Ryan build a killer pair of Breeze based Joules in your budget and have it all right now.
Lot's of options but the best way to proceed is to call Ryan, go over your budget, tastes and room and he will give you great choices. He is a detail freak and you will have a bespoke pair of uniquely custom speakers with end game sound."
Is it really a good idea to change the parts used to make a speaker on a in a build to order basis? A good friend of mine is a speaker manufacturer and he'll ask me, every so often, to do some listening tests when designing a new speaker. There's a need to get feedback from all types of people with different preferences, not just his own. If, for example, I handed him a different tweeter and asked him to try it, he wouldn't just swap them out. There would be a process involved that would almost certainly alter the crossover and cabinet, so that the new tweeter would integrate properly with the rest of the speaker. From what I understand, that's pretty much how most designers would do it. How can Vapor get away with not doing that type of research? |
"01-17-15: Jughead
I'm going to go with the stiff breeze for now and if I feel the need to upgrade I'll take a more serious look at their higher offerings. I think at some point I'll end up with the Nimbus just love the looks of that speaker, and the 15 inch driver in it makes me wonder if I would ever need to run any subs with these speakers?"
Spoken like a true audiophile. You may be looking for an end game speaker, but you're not looking to end the game. |
"The owner of the company is confident that his speakers will outperform my VA Mozart's and I wont return them."
lol. |
Mirage shouldn't have discontinued the M series. They were great speakers. |
"Also, anybody that tries to challenge Wavetouch Audio's INTEGRITY and credibility (zd542 "lol") is baseless...and meaningless to this or any other thread. Look at the "reviews" page on his website and be overwhelmed by the many grateful and satisfied customers. And when you're done there after many hours check his feedback on this website.
After_hrs (Reviews | Threads | Answers | This Thread)"
Well, I seem to have struck a nerve. lol. You must have something to do with the company since you're so quick to get defensive about someone elseÂ’s integrity. lol. But I will say that its rare to have a manufacturers web site, full of reviews and comments from satisfied customers. lol. Looks like you're guaranteed to get the best possible results. lol.
Jughead,
Just in case you are wondering, my lol comment was just that. The way you worded your post was funny, I couldn't help but laugh. It had nothing at all to do with the company, but don't tell that to After_hrs or he'll be up all night typing. lol. |
|
"01-26-15: After_hrs
Zd542,
I happily stand up for good people who are deserving... The owner of Wavetouch is such a person.
"The owner of the company is confident that his speakers will outperform my VA Mozart's and I wont return them."
lol.
This is a pointless and valueless comment.
Reading anything you've written here is a waste of time..."
Well, you should have. Because if you did, then you would know the pointless and valueless comment, wasn't mine.
"Do you have anything technical to add or a recommendation that might be applicable here?"
Now you've caught yourself in somewhat of a paradox. If reading anything that I've written here is a waste of time, you can't know that until you've read my post. Going by your logic, you shouldn't even be reading this. But you are, and in doing so you're in defiance of your own "logic"?
Luckily for us, your logic and reality are not the same thing. If you can somehow figure out a loophole, see if you can read the thread from the beginning. I was the first person to respond to the OP's question, and had several posts after, in the discussion that followed. Is there anything in any of them that you take issue with? The OP hasn't. |
Aftr_hrs,
"Reading this nonsense illustrates my point perfectly...Wasting some time is an necessary evil of forums... Thanks for providing the object lesson."
Thank you. I was hoping you would figure that out at some point. Anyway, looking at you last post, "To all others, maybe it's time to start posting some personal experience $10k range speakers that are worth commenting on for those that see the title...", I don't know if you were aware of this, but if you scroll up you'll see that the OP already bought speakers. It probably doesn't make sense to keep giving recommendations. |
"02-02-15: After_hrs
Zd542,
Your input once again is irrelevant to anything."
So why do you keep posting. You're ridiculous.
Lets take one last look at the situation that you created here. Here's what happened: I was reading one of the OP's posts. He worded a sentence in such a way that I thought it was funny. I couldn't help but chuckle. I posted an lol. And that's it. Your entire argument is based on 3 letters, lol. You mean to tell me that I'm not allowed to make a humorous comment? And not only that, just to make sure that I didn't accidentally offend someone, I posted this to clarify my statement.
"Jughead,
Just in case you are wondering, my lol comment was just that. The way you worded your post was funny, I couldn't help but laugh. It had nothing at all to do with the company, but don't tell that to After_hrs or he'll be up all night typing. lol."
I don't owe you an explanation for anything I do. If you don't like it, you can kiss my ass. |
I think they look OK. Is that the same ribbon tweeter that Martin Logan is using on their non esl speakers? |
After_hrs,
The OP asked if we could move on from this crap and talk about speakers. I thought I did a good job in explaining my lol comment. If you don't believe me, that's your choice and its perfectly fine. If you want, I'll even admit to hating Vapor speakers and declare myself on a mission to discredit the company, in any way I can. Anything. Just stop with the crybaby posting. |
I take offence to that Jughead. We all know that you were taking a stab at Wilson because I have a pair of Wilson Cubs. And don't try and get out of it either. It could not have been a knee jerk reaction. I think you should write a formal letter of apology to Mr. Wilson, and post it here so we can all bear witness. It will be a reminder that this type of thing should never happen again. |
"02-07-15: Jughead
zd542, actually I was talking about the Chicago Cubs trying to change the subject. no disrespect was intended."
I know. You guys have no sense of humour. Well maybe After_hrs, but that's it. |
"02-08-15: Jughead
Audioconnection, I own AQ jags, k12 and mont blanc cables I've pulled battery packs off and heard no difference."
Those are all great cables. I still have the Jaguars. You can't just pull the cable off the DBS and listen to it. It will still sound the same. If you want to compare, disconnect the DBS on 1 set of cables and let is sit for a while. Maybe 2-3 weeks. Then compare that pair of cables to a different set of Jaguars that you didn't unhook the DBS system on. DBS isn't something you can just turn on and off and listen for a difference.
"02-08-15: Metralla
02-07-15: Onemanwolfpack writes:
94db Sensitive? If the Wavetouch is 94db sensitive, I'm a Chinese Jet Pilot.
I certainly don't believe their published figures."
I'm just curious as to why you guys wouldn't believe those specs? Its usually amp specs that aren't believable. |
"Remember, there is no voodoo with these or any other speakers. The WT GT's are what they are... only good, basic, proven acoustical science and much empirical fine tuning. You don't have to defend anything."
That's a good foundation to start out with, but you really do have to consider the subjective qualities that can't be measures. |
"To myself, someone who has designed around 50 speakers over the last 10+ years by using proper scientific priciples, the outright lies in their specification claims and deceptions of how their re-purposed port tubes work is frankly insulting. And to see so many people swallow their line of BS is disappointing."
If you can do it better, then why don't you manufacture and distribute your own line of speakers? |
You're under no obligation to justify your purchase. Its your time and money to do with as you please.
"so it made me want to hear them for myself"
But since you are posting, that's the best possible reason to do what you did. |
Onemanwolfpack,
"From now on, expect me to poke my head in whenever I see bogus claims.
Onemanwolfpack (Answers | This Thread)"
That's a good idea. Maybe you didn't see my other post. Why don't we start off by looking at this bogus claim.
"02-09-15: Zd542
"To myself, someone who has designed around 50 speakers over the last 10+ years by using proper scientific priciples, the outright lies in their specification claims and deceptions of how their re-purposed port tubes work is frankly insulting. And to see so many people swallow their line of BS is disappointing."
If you can do it better, then why don't you manufacture and distribute your own line of speakers? "
I'll ask again. If you're so good, where's your designs? There's people who talk, and people that do. The only tool you have is a mouth wrench. |
"02-10-15: Vortrex
Zd542 he is making his own speakers... this is Vapor posting under a fake name. They have been caught doing this before (have the screenshots to prove it)."
He must be pretty desperate for business to come here and argue like a little kid. Mines better!! Not its not my speakers are better!! lol. Well Jughead, it looks like you have some good instincts. |
"02-13-15: Jughead
But the wavetouch will give my wife bigger breast!"
You're missing the whole point Jughead. There's more than one way to use the Wavetouch. Its a very simple, but useful technique. You Wave with one hand to distract her, and you grab with the other. At least, that's how I do it. |
"WT used to be Mihorn, and were selling those so called horns/cones for a while before they made their speakers, to be stuck to any possible monitors. These cannot be just plastered onto a speaker without proper design."
How can you make comments like this on a speaker that you've never heard?
"For people who bought WT, and are happy with it, great, to each his own. But for others "use" common sense."
So for the people that bought WT and are happy with them, you can't count that as using common sense? And you claim to know what common sense is?
You're just like the other one. All talk that you can't back up because you have no experience. Mouthwrench #2. |
"02-11-15: Milpai
Lets vaporize this whole thread!!!
How else does a $10k question turn into a Vapor discussion."
The OP was considering Vapor and this is where the discussion led.
"I was hoping to hear about PMC, Spendor, ATC, Proacs, etc."
I've had a few pairs of ProAc and thought they were excellent. You can do far worse. |
"So who am I? I'm the fly in the ointment, that small but irritating voice that won't go away when manufacturers trot out bogus claims and outright lies. I'm here to set the record straight, and choose the cover of anonymity for purpose of my righteous mission."
And once again, all talk.
"First off, the outlandish claims could easily be proven with a simple calibrated response measurement. Something any speaker manufacturer worth their salt should be doing anyway. So why hasn't that been shown? Simple, it would show convincingly that the claims are bogus. And second, the entire concept is nothing but an ill conceived straw man. "
Its always easy with the mouth. Why don't you show us then since your so smart and obviously know better? You talk but you can't back anything up. To the rest of us, its clear that you don't know your ass from your elbow. Otherwise, you would be able to do the "simple" stuff that you claim to be able to do, but clearly can't. I wouldn't trust you to build a speaker, but if I was a politician, I may let you write my speeches. |
"Please don't do that. You don't speak for us, and you cannot assume we all agree with your judgement of an AudiogoN member.
Regards,
Metralla (System | Answers | This Thread)"
You're right. I shouldn't have said that. I didn't think before I hit the enter key. It's no excuse, but that's what happened. |
Audiokinesis,
I understand your last comment, and I have no doubt that you're right, but what was it in reference to? |
"02-11-15: Nyaudio98
News flash to the brilliant ones who don't get it, do you know the markup from dealer to retailer is sometimes 70 percent..so you audophiles who want to spend 10k on a speaker that cost the retailer 4-5k..go right ahead!!! Or, look for a conmpany that doesn't have those margins and actually puts more into the speakers then that!!!!! "
No offence, but you don't know what you are talking about. If there's one fundamental rule in business, its this: You never, under any circumstances, tell anyone what you pay for something. Its just not done. Even a half ass business person knows that one. If someone tells you what they pay for something, they're lying. So, unless you've signed a dealer agreement, you can't know what you are talking about. |
"02-12-15: Jughead
Wavetouch will make my wife's breast bigger? sweet I'm in!"
Even if they don't, you can upgrade her with the money you saved on the speakers. |
"02-13-15: Mapman
Well, not all engineers are created equal. From what I read Duke is a pretty good one though."
That's definitely a true statement. The first part, anyway. I don't know Duke so I can't really say anything good or bad, about him. I would add to that, by saying the best engineers are the ones who realize products can't be designed in a vacuum, and aren't afraid to use other resources to make a better product. Anyone who tells you how something is going to sound just by looking at a spec sheet is full of it. Those are not the people you want designing your gear. |
"02-12-15: Unclehub
Stop wasting your $$$ on $10k speakers or ultra expensive equipment! My last system consisted of a Sunfire Theater Grand III - (7) Marantz MA700 Mono blocks - NHT T-6 Evolution Towers and matching center & surrounds - and a Velodyne HGS-15 Servo Sub. I thought I had a decent setup until I redid everything (sold the old system with the house)."
That makes complete sense. If something works well for you, then it has to work for everyone. |
"02-13-15: Audiokinesis
Regarding engineers, any piece of audio equipment that sounds good didn't get that way by being poorly engineered."
I agree, but you left out the other half.
Regarding engineers, any piece of audio equipment that sounds bad, didn't get that way by being well engineered.
"Anyway a thread like this is a minefield for a manufacturer, and I've ventured in farther than is wise already."
Not if they make good sounding products. |
"02-13-15: Mapman
"Anyone who tells you how something is going to sound just by looking at a spec sheet is full of it. "
I would agree with that. However, a good engineer will know how to put those specs to best use in order to meet the goal."
You're right, of course. The point I was trying to make was that there needs to be a blend between the science portion of the design, and the qualities that go beyond the specs. And that the designer not only gets that blend right, but they need some outside feedback as well.
I've been fortunate in that I have several friends that manufacture equipment. I occasionally take part in listening to new designs before they go into production. They always tell me they must get others opinions. Its not optional, because we all have different listening abilities, personal tastes and equipment. To me, doing it this way makes sense, and its also great to see how some of these products are made. |
"02-18-15: Jughead
ok sevevshy if the wavetouch isn't my bag I'll give those Magnavox speakers of yours a shot."
I was reading a post the other day and one of the posters said they bought a new pair of WT not long ago, and they are very happy with them. I only bring it up because its not one of the big speaker companies that have a lot of info available on them. |
"02-18-15: Toddnkaya
I'm sure you read the glowing review in the Review section here on Agon ah?
Toddnkaya (Threads | Answers | This Thread)"
No. I don't read reviews. It was just another poster who made some comments. |
