What's A Good Upgrade From A Manley Steelhead?

The short answer is no, I never talked to them. My unit is out of warranty anyway, and there’s gobs of room for the caps inside, so I just went ahead and did it myself. I understand why they chose overly large value capacitors; they are trying to account for users who might mismatch the unit to downstream devices.

@lewm Did you ever talk with the factory about the coupling cap upgrade? I’d be tempted to send it back to them if it’s something they would be willing to undertake.

 I know it’s relatively simple to do, I’d just rather it were something factory installed.

Rooze

Lamm not "lamb" in the last line of my post above.

Dhcod, you are certainly entitled to your opinion, regarding the superiority of the Lamm phono stage over the steelhead. My opinion is different. I have heard them both, and I do think the steelhead is a bit superior, although not by much. I certainly think the question is debatable, and not a certainty. A few things to keep in mind regarding the Lamm phono stage are as follows: it uses an internal step up transformer for moving coil gain levels. And maximum gain is 60 DB. The step up transformer has a 1 to 20 step up ratio, so you must take care to use it with moving coil cartridges that have a very low internal impedance, 10 ohms or less is advisable. Second, it has a rather high output impedance of 2800 ohms, I think. Or certainly in that ballpark. That means one ought to be careful about mating it with a downstream line stage, although most linestages would probably work OK. The Steelhead has three pairs of phono inputs and does not require a step up transformer in order to accommodate moving coil cartridges with low output. The total net gain is 65DB, so a little higher than the Lamm. Further the Steelhead has a built in linestage and costs a few thousand $$$ less than the Lamm. like I wrote earlier, in my opinion, the major factor that holds back the steelhead from being as good as it could be is the mediocre coupling capacitors used at the output, which are easily upgraded. With upgraded capacitors, I think one would find the steel head to outperform the lamb, clearly.

I have the ASR. It's fantastic. I bought it a long time ago because of the battery and being totally balanced. DEAD quiet!

@rooze I have the top tier ASR Emitter Exclusive II amplifier and then the ASR Mini Basis phono amp. The sound quality and build quality of the amplifier is a dream. The smaller phono stage is very good and because I only use a mono dedicated turntable, it currently meets all of my phono stage needs but at some point, I do hope to move up to their Basis Exclusive. Also, ASR customer service is directly with the designer and business owner himself. I have emailed him a number of times and he's always gotten back to me right away.

I had the ASR and I liked it better than the steelhead. it was my favorite solid state, way better than the EAR 324. It takes up a LOT of space. I also don't think it's in the ballpark of the Lamm. There's just something special about their products.

@dhcod and @goofyfoot Thanks for the suggestions. Two units I’ve heard little about so I’ll do some reading…

Actually the ASR unit piques my curiosity as it’s battery powered. My preamp and power amps are also battery powered and I like what that brings to the sound. Has anyone here heard the ASR? Thoughts?

cheers

Find a Lamm LP2.1. I’ve heard a Steelhead and the Lamm would be a huge upgrade. They pop up used in your price range.

ASR Basis Exclusive; 

This might be extreme overkill, particularly in terms of the blinged-out looks, but the Artisan Fidelity reconditioned Garrard 401 is something to aspire to:

https://www.artisanfidelity.com/new-products/garrard-401-statement#:~:text=Garrard%20401%20Statement%20by%20Artisan,its%2012%20year%20production%20run.

@larryi I wrote to Basis a couple of weeks back and got a quote from Alex for a new belt. 

I hear you on the sonic signature of the Basis deck. I also like it. A while back I had an Origin Live Resolution and a Feickert Volare side by side and found the OL deck to be highly resolving of detail, dynamic, a little on the lean side, but excellent overall, whereas the Feickert had more weight and authority, more meat on the bones, but sounded a little dark and dry. I think the Basis setup is more balanced, overall, and combines the virtues of the other two decks pretty well.

I’d like to try a Garrard deck at some point, but it’s lower down on the list for now.

Thanks for the input.

@tomic601 Thanks for the input. I did just replace a Graham 2.2 with the Phantom B44 and it was a very worthwhile improvement. I will continue to monitor the used markets for a Phantom Elite. I did email Graham Engineering a few days ago requesting information on their dealer locations so I could perhaps work through a dealer on stepping up the line, but so far they haven't written back.

I'm OK with setup, particularly with the Graham arms as they're so easy to do. (there's a simple cartridge alignment jig that makes things almost foolproof).

I have the Feickert alignment jig also but haven't needed it since selling my Feickert Woodpecker.

I'm on JR's email list and get frequent updates but so far I haven't spoken with him. It's something I might consider once I settle finally on an arm and cartridge. 

A new belt is about the only thing that would be needed to keep the Basis in fine fiddle.  I own a Basis and I have heard the Phantom on a different Basis table.  Both the arm and the Basis table are designed to maximize damping of vibration, both from external sources and the vibration caused by the stylus tracking the groove.  The sound of this combination is clear, composed, and quiet (very good at even suppressing the sound of ticks and pops because the sound passes quickly instead of resonating).  I personally like this sound at it works well in my very dynamic sounding system (horn-based speakers).  

But, this sound is not for everyone and every system and I understand those who call this sound "dead."  It is entirely valid to prefer something that sounds more lively and "jumpy."  If you want to mix things up a bit, it would be nice to also have something like a good vintage idler drive table like the Garrard 301 or 401 or Thorens TD 124 or the three motor belt drive Audio Note table.  These, with the right arm are more lively sounding than the Basis/Graham Phantom combination--i.e., different, not necessarily better.  At this level, it is more a matter of different taste than something being better than another.  The same is true with the original issue of choice of phono stage; it is hard to say that something would be considerably better than the Steelhead.

I'm happy with my tavish design classic, no where near the money of some of the above mentioned. I like my phono stage to be tubed. My next step up will be the Adagio. It has everything anyone could possibly require at only 2300 bucks. 

To the OP - of course you have excellent speakers ;-)  i would be way more inclined to really work over your Debut / Arm / Cartridge because you have an extremely competent phonostage…but IF the music doesn’t make it to ANY phono stage…. well you understand. How are your setup skills, tools and inclination to seek help ? JR at WAM would be a target phone call for sure. 

AJ who designed your table ( RIP ) was a genius, while i’m not suggesting a new Basis… there is depth in the community of owners and dealers and of course factory keeping them rolling and upgrading them…. Reach out if needed, i know a few of them…. fast friends…

Best to you

Jim

@rsf507 I don't meant to hijack this post :)

I had my own post for my phono stage search. I just bought a Simaudio 110LP v2. It works great. 

I was looking at used Sutherlands and such but I have to save up for those.

@grislybutter what's your price limit on a phono stage? Sorry if I missed it further back in the thread.

@dabel 

will see. I am crawling ads every day for good deals as a way of getting closer to my goals. 

@grislybutter,

I've a White Dove also, now 29 years and counting with three of our DNA walking around. I understand ... and your Hail Marry toss has been caught for a Touchdown ;-)

Funny thang happens when you've finally saved enough and start ones search again. She'll appear, or just maybe by that time you've jumped ship for another Brand whom has caught your attention.

@dabel very true. I can see myself slowing trading up, however the wife factor is real, I don't have good solutions.

Don't wish, make it happen one day silly grisly.  Patiently wait for a clean well taken used unit to hit the market of your desire ... save your pennies in the meantime. If it takes two or more years then so-be-it.

@rooze

I wish :)

I would like to upgrade some day to the Manley line. They don't just sound good, they are the best design to my eyes, and EveAnna is a natural at this.

Rooze,

I see that you are familiar with Deja Vu Audio in Vienna, Virginia.  They make custom horn systems that are pricey, but, they are worlds apart from Klipsch, Altec and the like.  Deja Vu utilizes pretty exotic vintage drivers and currently manufactured drivers from Japan and Italy, and these systems are very different in sound from more common horn-based systems.  If you are interested in horns, you should at least hear one of these custom systems.

By the way, I have a turntable like yours.  I also have a Debut with vacuum clamp.  I also have the Basis motor control unit.  My tonearm is the Basis Vector arm.  I have two cartridges, a Lyra Titan and a Transfiguration Orpheus L.  

@grislybutter - OK, thanks. I was asking since I've been trying different speakers and thought you might have some experience with the Piegas.

I've had horns in this room and I like a lot of their properties but not all. I've had Klipsch Khorns, Altec Valencia, and A7s, but nothing modern at this point. 

@rooze 

you seem to have an impeccable, high-end system and I can recognize most components but not the speakers. So, no, I have no knowledge of what they are. 

From your room size, you could go with horn speakers (not Klipsch). That appears to be a new direction and upgrade in a few aspects.

But as I mentioned above and in other posts, I am the village idiot here, I am here to learn and have little to contribute.

@grislybutter "You can go sideways or down. Looking at your system, you would benefit more from different speakers...."

Thanks. I'm curious to know if you've heard the Piega C40, and curious to know more about why you think I'd benefit from something different. I'm not necessarily disagreeing, just wondering what's behind your suggestion.

@larryi I'm with you on the virtues of tube gear. Thanks for the suggestions. I've heard very little from Audio Note's electronics line, just their speakers, which I've heard at shows and up at Deja Vu Audio near DC.

I suppose the idea of running a second phono alongside the steelhead makes some sense, though I do have a second system with an Allnic H1202 and an old VPI TNT that I need to bring into service.

All good suggestions, thanks.

@bdp24 Interesting idea. I've heard Shindo gear a few times over the years, always in well-curated systems and it has always impressed. Your mentioning the 912 has reminded me that that particular unit was high on my 'watch list' a couple of years back before I bought the Emotive Epifania linestage, and then later the Veloce LS-1. Perhaps I'll revisit that.

Yes, Art Dudley helped take me down the path of exploring vintage speakers with his writings on the Altec Valencia. I ran the Valencia 846b for a while and later the larger VOTT A7. 

Thanks for reminding me about the EAR-Yoshindo 912.

I have not heard the Steelhead in my own system or one that I am familiar with, so I have only a general impression.  I like what I heard from the systems I've heard, so it is certainly a good phonostage.  I like what I run, a Viva fono, but, I have no idea how it compares in sound to the Steelhead or other phono stages for that matter. 

I tend to like tube-based electronics, regardless of the potential for higher  noise, poorer measurements, etc.  There is a naturalness, a larger scale, and a sense of the music blooming into the space and filling the room that solid state doesn't quite achieve.  I also like the way tube electronics deliver a lively, engaging sound at lower volume levels.  I am also one that likes, even amongst tube gear, stuff that has more, and better, transformers.  I prefer tube phono stages with a step up transformer than ones that try to achieve sufficient gain with active stages. 

I can only offer some rough suggestions of brands you should at least audition for warmer sounding phono stages.  There is the Audio Note (uk) line that ranges from expensive to ridiculously expensive.  The thing is, their stuff does really sound good.  Their gear requires a step up transformer moving coil cartridges, and they make very good transformers for that purpose.  This is a company that makes most of their own parts (they wind their own transformers, make their own resistors, capacitor, inductors, even their own solder).  Very much in the warmer sounding camp.

The Italian company Lector makes some good sounding tube electronics.  I have heard their phono stage and I like it--a lively, engaging sound.  I also liked the high end Zanden tube phono stage I heard; I believe it comes with its own built-in step up transformer (like my Viva Fono).

Have you considered keeping the Steelhead and perhaps getting something else with a completely different sound just to mix things up once in a while?  That might be something easier to do than finding something that is "better" than an already fine component.  I am not so inclined myself, but I have heard gear that was intriguing such that I might want to use it occasionally, even if it is not what I want to use day-in and day-out over a very long period of time.  In the phono stage realm, that would be the solid state Lyra Connoisseur phono stage.  I heard it in a show system that was explosively dynamic when playing records (meaning the phono stage brought a lot to this quality of the system).  Unfortunately, the Lyra is no longer made and is extremely rate, and even 15 year models when they do show up are well north of $15k.   

@rooze: Are you familiar with the gear tastes and/or reviews of the late Art Dudley? His hi-fi priorities were first full-bodied tonal color and saturation, followed closely by "forward rhythmic propulsion"---the timing characteristics of hi-fi gear, a subject little discussed in hi-fi reviews (Herb Reichert being one exception).

Art preferred the pre-amps and power amps of Shindo Laboratories above all others (though in his review of the EAR-Yoshindo 912 he stated it provided sound competitive with his Shindo). I don’t believe Shindo offers a separate phono stage, but you can do what some hard-core 1950’s-60’s audiophiles did---use only the phono stage of a full-function pre-amp (phono and line stages), sending the RIAA signal available at the tape out jacks of a Shindo (or any other full-function pre-amp for that matter) to your own line stage. Who knows,. you might like the Shindo line stage as well!

what a loss...

Maybe if you hadn't been condescending and didn't assume things about me, we could have taught each other a few things, but oh well.

I did hear the Steelhead and a lot of phono preamps, side by side. Your argument that I had to own one to have a seat at the table made 0 sense to me. You don't have to own a rocket to have a PhD in the subject.

This is why I frequent this forum less. Lack of knowledge, strong on opinion and nasty. GFY. 

You won't learn anything from me. 

Thank you.

And your first lesson could be to lookup the word "upgrade" in the dictionary and figure out what it means. You are welcome.

Ah….. even at the levels Bill frequents..for decades now, he realizes improvement is always possible…. No matter the $. Perhaps that could be your first lesson ?

My best to those who love music and the endless quest for better….

@whart don't try to be polite, feel free to lecture me. After all you spent a gazillion dollars on your rig, and I am ignorant because I did not (for two reasons, one is lack of $$$).  I'd be so happy to learn from you. 

But let's leave cars out of this, you seem very confused.

You ever hear a Steelhead? Have one in your system? I did, for several years. 

Your statement that it can't be surpassed is incorrect. I'm trying to be polite. 

And there is a way to vet a vintage Bugatti, but it requires some depth. I don't pretend to have that knowledge, though I'm familiar with the cars that Ettore made. 

they bought the Bugatti name that was dead for 50 years, hard to say what's real

And the Bugatti you mention isn't a real Bugatti. But, I digress....

I don’t know how you would step UP from the Steelhead? It’s 10 grand. It’s as good as it gets. It’s pretty much the Bugatti Chiron of phono stages. You can go sideways or down. Looking at your system, you would benefit more from different speakers....

@rooze There have been times when I thought the Steelhead might be holding me back from pure listening bliss. The culprit proved to be one mediocre pressing after another. Perhaps a present-day state of the art phono stage would have made them sound more appealing. In fact, I don't doubt it. 

@fsonicsmith1 I agree it’s an excellent phonostage and I’m sure it isn’t the constraining factor in my analog setup… just interested in trying something different. 
@ledoux1238 yes, a different cartridge is on the list. I wanted to upgrade the arm first, which I did last week, then find a good cartridge that works well with the new arm (Graham Phantom). I regret selling the Audio Tekne. I also sent mine back to the factory for a rebuild and it sounded great.

@rooze I am responding because I have the same Audio Tekne MC-6310. It was sent to Imai-san in 2021 for cantilever repair and returned much improved. It is paired with the Audio Tekne MCT-4818 SUT going to a Sun Valley tube  phono. My phono is not of Steelhead caliber admittedly and your OP is about phono preamp. But I have two other cartridges, a ZYX Ultimate Omega and recently acquired Transfiguration Proteus. Both cartridges go through the AT SUT into a lower level phono stage than yours. And with the Proteus, I feel that the vinyl front end will stay put for a while. 

Perhaps adding a higher caliber cartridge might be a the other way to go? My apologies for veering off topic.

I am not one for cliche's but you would have to wrest the Steelhead out of my cold dead hands for me to give it up. It is seductive and rapturous when given a decent set of grooves. As I type this I am listening to the remastered version of Kate Bush's "Hounds of Love" with a Reed 3P arm and Lyra Etna Lamda. Drive is a highly modded Garrard 301. I don't for a minute disbelieve that the CH Precision, various Allnic units and more deliver something that can be called "better". But if your Steelhead is holding you back than you have Fifth World problems-assuming your TT is set up optimally and assuming you have heard it with good pressings. My Steelhead is dead quiet, dead reliable, and so satisfying (to me) from every perspective. After 2000 hours I did re-tube it with tubes supplied by Manley Labs which were very reasonably priced. 

I have Chinook SE, not a Steelhead, with a Bob's Devices Sky 20 SUT and a Hana Umami Red cartridge. Adding the SUT was an improvement.  I'm very happy with the results.

@marantz8  Not presently. I ran an Audio Tekne MC 6310 (0.1mv) and used an Audio Tekne SUT for a while, but it actually worked better without the SUT.

Van Den Hul Grail - very quiet current mode, I have the SB model

Esoteric E-02 - compares well to top phono stages-  seems to be a sonic bargain 

Using what with a SUT?  The Steelhead has three pairs of phono inputs.  Two are for MC cartridges, and one is for MM.  You can choose up to 65db of phono gain.  So there would be no need for a SUT with most LOMC cartridges down to about 0.2mV output. (I actually used mine successfully with an AT ART7, which outputs only 0.12mV, but that is probably owing to the fact that the Beveridge amplifiers are "sensitive".)  Right now I am using it with Koetsu Urushi, and the attenuator is not even at its midpoint for very high SPLs in my large basement room.  But maybe you did not refer to the Steelhead.

Are you using it with an SUT?

Dear @rooze : " but we invariably lose ’something’ and ..."

Trade-offs always exist in the audioworld and unfortunatelly for the tube lovers are accustomed to those high kind of distortions and these is what you lose changing to the SS alternative but is not a "sad/good " lose. In the same way that you will miss in the short time that " lose " in a short time you will start to " accustom " of the new kind of " distortions " ( if any ) with the 610LP.

Every one of us have their specific targets in our room/system, mine is to stay nearer to the recording and if with my SS phono stage I add and lost the less of what cartridge pick up from the LP grooves then I’m nearer to the recording because through tubes that add/lost is higher that what you could imagine.

My feeilng ( I can be wrong ) is that you are a MUSIC lover that know the live MUSIC kind of sounds. Now if you are waiting that the SS alternative gives you " more of the same " but " better " then don't take that " road " and stay as you are.

My take too is that @drbond ( I can be wrong ) think that you are just an audiophile and follower of the corrupted AHEE. I don't.

R.