What's A Good Upgrade From A Manley Steelhead?

@rauliruegas That link is to a full function preamp. I'm just looking for a phonostage, I have a good preamp.

Thanks

Rooze

@wrm57 Thanks, I'm a fan of Allnic gear, I've had their 5000DHT preamp, A6000 monoblocks and I still have their H1202 phonostage in a second system. I don't see an H3000 on the used market but I'll keep an eye open. 

@lewm  Thanks, I have the latest version, the Steelhead RC. I'm not about to do any mods to it, though I appreciate that there might be gains to be had.

I do like how it sounds and its versatility, but I'm just ready for a change and an upgrade.

Cheers.

@rauliruegas OK, thanks for that link. I like what I've heard over the years from Simaudio/Moon - I had their W10 monoblocks some years ago and more recently their 280D DAC. But I'd never really considered them as a contender in the phonostage arena....I'll do some reading/research.

Rooze

@bdp24 No problem with your comment at all, I'm considering all options and one option is certainly to 'do nothing'. I don't have a large vinyl collection, in part because I offloaded my collection some years ago and took a hiatus, and I've been slow to re-assemble my collection since reinvesting in the medium.

Most of the 'new' music I hear comes from digital/streaming, and I use digital sources to cherry-pick new stuff that I acquire on vinyl. So yes, I could certainly use the funds to accelerate the process of building my vinyl collection, or I could use it to make what I already have sound a little better. Two options that I'm still considering.

Cheers

@willy-t Thanks for the heads up on the Sutherland. I wasn’t aware of this technology, using the current and not the voltage generated in moving coil cartridges. It’s interesting since I’m also looking to change tonearms so I can spec the balanced ungrounded cable requirements.

Interesting.

I wish there were some place I could get to hear this thing.

Otherwise I like the Moon idea, unless something else comes along. I haven’t found much reading on the Moon phono but I’ll have another look around later today.

Please keep any other suggestions coming. I’d like a shortlist of perhaps 3 units before I get my spinning wheel and pointer out :)

Rooze

@lewm good point and duly noted.

@drbond Thanks for the input. I didn't spend close to $1000 on different tubes. Perhaps that's something I should invest more into before I give up on the Manley.

As an aside, I had both the Zesto Andros 1.2 and a Manley Chinook here before I bought the Steelhead. The Chinook was what I would unreservedly refer to as 'tubey'. The Zesto was far more neutral and a little more clinical, but more dynamic than the Chinook. The Steelhead captured the strengths of both and combined them. So yes, it has some evidence of tubeyness in its presentation, I'm just looking for a tad more, without losing the dynamic capability and all its other virtues. I'll have a look around for the early 1960's Siemens CCa tubes, as you've suggested.

Cheers

Rooze

I just checked what I have for tubes in the Steelhead:

Amperex 6dj8 orange globe x2 for gain

I bought a quad of TUNG-SOL 5687WA Blackplate Big D getter but they created some noise, so I switched back in the JAN NOS GE 7044. My understanding is that there's no technical reason why the output buffers should impact the sound, so there's little point in spending a lot of money on those. 

@mulveling Great information, thanks. I guess the Steelhead retrieves detail sufficiently, does most things very well, but doesn't imbue the sound with the typical midrange bloom and presence that I expect from tube gear. It's a little bit solid-state sounding, as others have alluded to here and elsewhere. @whart above describes it as 'a slight electronic glaze', which I think is a fair assessment, with emphasis on 'slight'. It hasn't responded particularly well to tube-rolling, the tubes I've tried haven't really tilted it away from neutrality to something with a bit more bloom.

With this in mind, I've been reluctant to try an ARC phono as my experience with their preamps and power amps over the years has left me with the impression that their gear is voiced a little on the lean side, a little neutral perhaps. Maybe I need to reassess. 

Cheers

Rooze

@ghdprentice Thanks for the info on the ARC phonostages. As I mentioned in a post from a few moments ago, I've had a long-standing impression that ARC gear is voiced to be very neutral, not at all tubey in any sense. In that way, it's similar to the Steelhead, which also sounds more neutral than other tube'd phonostages I've heard. I'm looking for a little more bloom, more substance - meat on the bones etc, without any loss of detail or dynamics. Given this, do you still think it's worthwhile checking out ARC? 

@rauliruegas I agree, I'm also skeptical of the 2x rule (which isn't a rule, I guess...it's just a loose guideline). The 2x doesn't really take into account the used marketplaces and how different gear retains its value over time, nor how equipment is sold in the first instance, i.e factory direct or through an importer-distributor-dealer model. Nor does it take into account the rare occasion when a low-cost item appears to knock the spots off gear costing way, way more - perhaps as with the PS Audio Stellar Phono that you kindly linked to.

I just read Mr. Fremer's review of the PS Audio kit that you posted. It reminded me a little of reviews I've read of the iFi iPhono3 Black Label, which I tinkered with a year or so ago and wrote about on my blog. That's a fantastic little box that punches way beyond its price of a measly $1000 or so.

It boils down to how much extra we're willing to pay for that last couple percent of performance. Some of Fremer's comments about the PS Audio kit suggested it might lack a little low-end oomph and authority. That could be enough for some folks to pony up the extra cash for something 3 or 4 times more expensive, or even more.

I don't have any answers here, other than cite the well-worn idiom: to each his own.

Thanks for posting the link to the review.

Cheers

@drbond Thanks - I just sent an email to Brent to see what he has. I've bought from him in the past and his suggestions are usually spot on.

@mulveling Thanks for the info and suggestions. I'd emailed Brent and he came back with a recommendation that I just purchased - 

Amperex green and orange industrial type 6922 gold pin and NOS RCA Bronzeplate 5687.

I doubt this will take me to a place where I no longer feel an urge to upgrade, in fact I think I've just had an "Oh look a squirrel" moment, as previous rolling with the Manley has had a minimal impact (as you stated in your post, rolling won't change its spots). But it will keep me amused for another couple of weeks while I concentrate on a tonearm and cartridge upgrade. 

@mijostyn Thanks for the great info. This adds immensely to the reading I've done so far on the Moon and also on the Sutherland Big Loco. Both the Moon and Sutherland seem pretty rare on the used markets but I've stored a search on hifishark.

Ideally, I'd like to try a good SS phono while I still have my Steelhead around. I'm concerned about sacrificing some musicality (tubes) for musical accuracy (solid-state) and not realizing that there's been a retrograde step in musical enjoyment until it's too late....if that makes any sense. 

Though I've played with a few different tube phono stages I've very limited hands-on with solid-state units. In fact, the only SS unit I've had in my system in the past 4/5 years has been the little iFi iPhono3 Black Label - which was pretty darned good for its modest price. 

Thanks!

@rauliruegas   OK, I feel embarrassed to have used the word 'musicality', it was lazy of me. I try to avoid words like that, they include 'organic', 'palpable', and a few others. But I think we're on the same page insofar as understanding what I meant.

Yes, I take your point and agree that (most) modern equipment is capable of delivering accuracy in a way that's also emotionally engaging and without driving you from the room. 

Tubes have a generic signature, it's there to varying degrees in any equipment that uses tubes and there's something about the nature of the sound of tubes that's appealing. It's what makes us go through the troubles associated with tube ownership. When we remove tubes from the circuit we might gain in other ways, but we invariably lose 'something' and it then becomes a case of having to weigh the pros and cons as objectively as possible. I find that nowadays it's harder for me to make these trade-off assessments easily without having both units side-by-side for a period, which was the crux of my comment.

I haven't dismissed anything at this point. I like the look of the Moon gear, I've owned their stuff in the past and it has always performed extremely well.

Rooze

@marantz8  Not presently. I ran an Audio Tekne MC 6310 (0.1mv) and used an Audio Tekne SUT for a while, but it actually worked better without the SUT.

@fsonicsmith1 I agree it’s an excellent phonostage and I’m sure it isn’t the constraining factor in my analog setup… just interested in trying something different. 
@ledoux1238 yes, a different cartridge is on the list. I wanted to upgrade the arm first, which I did last week, then find a good cartridge that works well with the new arm (Graham Phantom). I regret selling the Audio Tekne. I also sent mine back to the factory for a rebuild and it sounded great.

@grislybutter - OK, thanks. I was asking since I've been trying different speakers and thought you might have some experience with the Piegas.

I've had horns in this room and I like a lot of their properties but not all. I've had Klipsch Khorns, Altec Valencia, and A7s, but nothing modern at this point. 

@bdp24 Interesting idea. I've heard Shindo gear a few times over the years, always in well-curated systems and it has always impressed. Your mentioning the 912 has reminded me that that particular unit was high on my 'watch list' a couple of years back before I bought the Emotive Epifania linestage, and then later the Veloce LS-1. Perhaps I'll revisit that.

Yes, Art Dudley helped take me down the path of exploring vintage speakers with his writings on the Altec Valencia. I ran the Valencia 846b for a while and later the larger VOTT A7. 

Thanks for reminding me about the EAR-Yoshindo 912.

@larryi I'm with you on the virtues of tube gear. Thanks for the suggestions. I've heard very little from Audio Note's electronics line, just their speakers, which I've heard at shows and up at Deja Vu Audio near DC.

I suppose the idea of running a second phono alongside the steelhead makes some sense, though I do have a second system with an Allnic H1202 and an old VPI TNT that I need to bring into service.

All good suggestions, thanks.

@grislybutter "You can go sideways or down. Looking at your system, you would benefit more from different speakers...."

Thanks. I'm curious to know if you've heard the Piega C40, and curious to know more about why you think I'd benefit from something different. I'm not necessarily disagreeing, just wondering what's behind your suggestion.

@larryi I wrote to Basis a couple of weeks back and got a quote from Alex for a new belt. 

I hear you on the sonic signature of the Basis deck. I also like it. A while back I had an Origin Live Resolution and a Feickert Volare side by side and found the OL deck to be highly resolving of detail, dynamic, a little on the lean side, but excellent overall, whereas the Feickert had more weight and authority, more meat on the bones, but sounded a little dark and dry. I think the Basis setup is more balanced, overall, and combines the virtues of the other two decks pretty well.

I’d like to try a Garrard deck at some point, but it’s lower down on the list for now.

Thanks for the input.

@tomic601 Thanks for the input. I did just replace a Graham 2.2 with the Phantom B44 and it was a very worthwhile improvement. I will continue to monitor the used markets for a Phantom Elite. I did email Graham Engineering a few days ago requesting information on their dealer locations so I could perhaps work through a dealer on stepping up the line, but so far they haven't written back.

I'm OK with setup, particularly with the Graham arms as they're so easy to do. (there's a simple cartridge alignment jig that makes things almost foolproof).

I have the Feickert alignment jig also but haven't needed it since selling my Feickert Woodpecker.

I'm on JR's email list and get frequent updates but so far I haven't spoken with him. It's something I might consider once I settle finally on an arm and cartridge. 

@dhcod and @goofyfoot Thanks for the suggestions. Two units I’ve heard little about so I’ll do some reading…

Actually the ASR unit piques my curiosity as it’s battery powered. My preamp and power amps are also battery powered and I like what that brings to the sound. Has anyone here heard the ASR? Thoughts?

cheers

@lewm Did you ever talk with the factory about the coupling cap upgrade? I’d be tempted to send it back to them if it’s something they would be willing to undertake.

 I know it’s relatively simple to do, I’d just rather it were something factory installed.

Rooze