What's A Good Upgrade From A Manley Steelhead?

OP,

Given the level of nuance we are talking about in Phono stages… I think you have to listen to an Audio Research to make up your own mind. To me they perfectly nail midrange bloom without being “warm” for the sake of warm. I can say that for me the ATC Reference 3SE is the best, musical, detailed phonostage I have ever heard. 

Audiophile know thyself…. accurate or flavorized…. it’s very helpful and can save you a lot of churn….

Currently, i have an ARC Ref 2se and a Herron with a quasi successful roll of French Mazda silvers in the front end. Neither of my phono are very rollable…

Enjoy the music 

I rolled NOS Tele and Siemens among others in the Steelhead. Didn't change my conclusion. Perhaps @lewm is correct about the cause of what I called a slight electronic glaze. 

I'm not a follower of one brand. I had ARC stuff starting in around 1974-5 and carried on with it until the '90s. Kept my SP-10mkii preamp for the longest- too noisy for my horn based system and finally sold it as well. I still have a Dual 75a that I bought new in around 1975, pretty much unmolested, but needs attention before I put it back into service.

My only recommendation to the OP is to try to hear this gear in your system, which may not be possible if you are buying used. 

Bill - frankly, i was way more interested in what caps @lewm had sitting bench in the parts drawer….and i would rather talk Beveridge…. alas…. been a long time since i heard or sold a well sorted system from Harold and Roger…. ah…youth

@drbond Thanks - I just sent an email to Brent to see what he has. I've bought from him in the past and his suggestions are usually spot on.

I just don’t feel like I get as much mileage (as in, a wide variance in resultant SQ) from rolling 6DJ8 / 6922, as opposed to say 12AX7 / 12AU7 / 6SN7 or even KT / EL power tubes. Maybe that will change in the future. I’ve tried a lot of them, but no CCA’s or pinched-waists yet. You do have to be careful of "duds", but Brent Jesse will get you good ones.

Certainly, some phono stages are more friendly to tube rolling than others. The VAC’s are beautifully voiced with stock tubes, so you have to be careful not to stray from that balance, which is tricky. I had put in some RCA blue-tips (from VTS) in there that sounded just AWFUL (bright, harsh mess) and didn’t "figure out" that I should blame that tube for way too long. I was so sure it would be a good tube.

Like @tomic601 I find the Herron a bit tricky to roll - funny, I currently have the EXACT same Mazda silver plate 12AX7 (best of this type, IMO) in it that he mentioned! I like generally warmer stages, but the Herron is just not going to be swayed there and so I found it best rather to maximize its strengths with the Mazdas. I don’t have a lot of 12AT7 to roll for those 3 slots. I tried British Mullards from Upscale (usually very warm) and didn’t find much improvement over the stock tubes.

The ARC Ref 3 doesn’t have as many options as most tube stages. There are a couple options that I didn’t explore: 6H30 "DR" (very expensive, hard to find matched) and 6N6 (supposedly these will wear out faster in this application). You can roll the single 6550 regulator tube, to some positive effect. Anyways, this is a great stage that’s voiced right so you "shouldn’t" really feel the need to roll. It you want to hack its sound, then using an outboard SUT (like I did) has far greater impact.

The Hagerman Trumpet MC ships with Russian Mullards that are too warm and you can literally only go up from there lol. At this price point ($1289), it’s impressive to get even the 6 Russian tubes included.

In general, phono stage rolling is a lot harder - you will run into noisy, microphonic tubes. Just listen and move on as needed. Also - perhaps this should be obvious - the choice of phono stage is going to make far more impact on the resultant sound than your choice in tubes. You're not going to make one of these phonos sound "just like" the other with rolling. 

Keep it or sell it and buy a 1000 dollar solid state unit and invest the money to upgrade speakers or other amplification.   Despite claims of RIAA accuracy and precise amplification the phono stage is a simple process made over complicated.  An electrical engineer I was mentoring was amused when I was looking at a 12,000 dollar audio research model.  He came back with a RadioShack plastic board powered by an eveready 9 cold dry cell and parts from the drawers at RadioShack.
Only upgraded when I went to lomc.  Still have it and laugh 

@mulveling Thanks for the info and suggestions. I'd emailed Brent and he came back with a recommendation that I just purchased - 

Amperex green and orange industrial type 6922 gold pin and NOS RCA Bronzeplate 5687.

I doubt this will take me to a place where I no longer feel an urge to upgrade, in fact I think I've just had an "Oh look a squirrel" moment, as previous rolling with the Manley has had a minimal impact (as you stated in your post, rolling won't change its spots). But it will keep me amused for another couple of weeks while I concentrate on a tonearm and cartridge upgrade. 

People used to buy used Techtronix oscilloscopes just in order to harvest the TFK 6922s inside. (Perhaps also Siemens brand.)

Tomic, any time you wanna talk Beveridge direct drive amplifiers or spkrs, you can pm me. It’s a labor of love.

I’ve probably got a few thousand dollars worth of spare tubes, capacitors, resistors, and even transistors in my basement workspace. For the Steelhead I am using 10uF Dynamicaps between phono output and attenuator. Between attenuator and outputs to the Bev amps I am using two 2uF polystyrene caps in parallel, for a total of 4uF. Made by Pacific Audio Supply, which is now sadly defunct.

@rooze , Sorry for being late to your thread. I think lewm and rauliruegas have a lot to offer on this subject. IMHO the best solid state units easily dwarf the best tube units for accuracy and quietness. The Moon phono stages are exactly the type of design I look for, well built and unadorned with rarely used switches, circuits, etc. With units like the CH and Dartzeel you are buying a bunch of capability you will never use. So why pay for it. I would be surprised if the Moons did not equal or surpass these units. My own feeling is that if you are going to use multiple arms and cartridges then you should use multiple phono stages suited to the individual cartridge.

There are two basic types of phono stages, current mode and the more common voltage mode. IMHE cartridges with an impedance less than 3 ohms will definitely perform better with a balanced current mode unit Like The Sutherland, BMC or Channel D phono stages. Above 3 ohms, if a cartridge has an output greater than 0.5 mv, current mode will work fine. Above 10 ohms a voltage mode unit is mandatory. Some phono stages will do both like the Channel D units. The best sound I ever heard coming from a turntable is from a Lyra Atlas Lambda SL through a Channel D phono stage running in current mode with digital RIAA correction. 

Signal to noise ratio is critical. Even small amounts of added noise can play havoc with the sense of reality. The Moon units are SOTA in this regard. The only phono stage that I know can do better is the Channel D Seta L20 which is pushing $50K, not what you would call a value. I have an Ortofon MC Diamond, 6 ohms with an output of 0.2 mv. It struggles through the channel D in current mode because the signal to noise ratio is not good enough. It would positively sing through the Moon units. The Lyra and a MSL Signature Platinum perform brilliantly so I plan on selling the MC Diamond. As an all around phono stage for someone who is not interested in digital RIAA correction the Moon units are unbeatable at any price level. I also believe that the absolute best sound comes from a very low impedance cartridge driving a current mode phono stage. The Channel D compromises signal to noise for a wildly wide bandwidth, 5 mHz! This approach only works with a limited number of cartridges until you get to the Seta L20 which will mate with any cartridge but at a very high price.  

@mijostyn Thanks for the great info. This adds immensely to the reading I've done so far on the Moon and also on the Sutherland Big Loco. Both the Moon and Sutherland seem pretty rare on the used markets but I've stored a search on hifishark.

Ideally, I'd like to try a good SS phono while I still have my Steelhead around. I'm concerned about sacrificing some musicality (tubes) for musical accuracy (solid-state) and not realizing that there's been a retrograde step in musical enjoyment until it's too late....if that makes any sense. 

Though I've played with a few different tube phono stages I've very limited hands-on with solid-state units. In fact, the only SS unit I've had in my system in the past 4/5 years has been the little iFi iPhono3 Black Label - which was pretty darned good for its modest price. 

Thanks!

@lewm thanks for sharing the cap choices w wider audience…. i think there might be a decent overlap of our parts bins…. Roger and Richard Vandersteen helped inform many choices there…. 

To the OP - great move… a bit of a trove of NOS tubes from trusted sources - I use both Brent and Andy at Vintage tube services. I might add that isolation of a tube phono stage and to a lesser degree but still important for SS, is critical. I use HRS but obviously there are MANY other effective isolation devices…. 

@mulveling spot on dude… both my Phono 2se and 5se have Andy sourced NJ 1960’s Tung Sol black plates in the power supply….. wow….. and greatly maginified by HRS…

Low cost dip toe into water SS stage is….. Dynavector…on mk 4 now as i recall….. but again….. seeker of neutrality…or ?

Fun to all.

Jim

OP might i suggest a call w Jonathan at Ultra Fidelis, he is super into analog and carries Moon and ARC, Lyra…. etc…. Honest and helpful as the day is long. He helped immensely in guiding my buddy an Orchestra conductor of note to a fantastic Moon pre and power based system.

Re your Basis, Randy at Optimal in Santa Monica has probably sold more ? Basis TT on planet than anyone… he will have some insights also….

Best to you in music

Jim

Dear @rooze : Things are that I used for at least 10 years tube alternative everywhere, so I have the whole tube first hand experiences.

" I’m concerned about sacrificing some musicality (tubes) for musical accuracy (solid-state) and not realizing that there’s been a retrograde step in musical enjoyment until it’s too late....i "

Look, if you attend at a concert and the people surrounded you are not audiophiles and you mention talking with one of them the word " musicality " you can be sure that he will ask you what exactly do you mean with that.

I attend at least each week to listen live MUSIC and I can tell you that even with some gentlemans that are audiophile and when we are talking about the score we listened no one mentioned that word. What we can hear from them is: emotive, dynamic power, feelings, even ( depending how near you was seated from the source ) brigthness or harsness, transients response speed and the like but not: musicality, detail, warm, lush, nuances that are tube audiophile adjectives.

Now, I know what you mean by musicality and today in almost all SS electronics accurated is not " figthing " any more with musicality, both terms are true and live together in today well designed SS electronics.

Yes, @mijostyn is totally rigth and I agree with him not because both coincide about but because it’s a reality.

Sooner or later for the MUSIC lovers that " adopted " the tube sound signature will know the " true " that just are not willing not to accept it but even try it.

If at the end you decide to buy the 610/810 LP unit you have to take in count that that accuracy of the Moon unit will tell you all what’s happening in your system and maybe somethings you could not be totally satisfied  and this could happens in your system because nothing could be " hidden " behind the SS unit when with tubes that " hidden " happens day by day minute after minute. Anyway, you can be sure that the 610LP gives you nothing but what the cartridge pick-up from the LP grooves adding and losting almost nothing but MUSIC.

R.

@rauliruegas   OK, I feel embarrassed to have used the word 'musicality', it was lazy of me. I try to avoid words like that, they include 'organic', 'palpable', and a few others. But I think we're on the same page insofar as understanding what I meant.

Yes, I take your point and agree that (most) modern equipment is capable of delivering accuracy in a way that's also emotionally engaging and without driving you from the room. 

Tubes have a generic signature, it's there to varying degrees in any equipment that uses tubes and there's something about the nature of the sound of tubes that's appealing. It's what makes us go through the troubles associated with tube ownership. When we remove tubes from the circuit we might gain in other ways, but we invariably lose 'something' and it then becomes a case of having to weigh the pros and cons as objectively as possible. I find that nowadays it's harder for me to make these trade-off assessments easily without having both units side-by-side for a period, which was the crux of my comment.

I haven't dismissed anything at this point. I like the look of the Moon gear, I've owned their stuff in the past and it has always performed extremely well.

Rooze

@rooze 

Don't let @rauliruegas bully you into thinking anything in particular.  He doesn't know what you prefer at this point in time.  I think most know what you mean by "musical".  If you like the musical bloom of the tubes, then that's what you like.  It may not be "the absolute sound", but it's no doubt a very enjoyable listening experience.  It does look like Moon offers a listening trial, so take advantage of that and compare the phono stages.  It will no doubt sound differently, and in some ways better, and in other ways, probably worse.  Personally, I think that you will have to search a while (and possibly save more funds) to improve on the Manley Steelhead, but perhaps I'm wrong:  if it weren't one of the best phono stages, it wouldn't still be selling 20+ years after its introduction!   

Dear @rooze : " but we invariably lose ’something’ and ..."

Trade-offs always exist in the audioworld and unfortunatelly for the tube lovers are accustomed to those high kind of distortions and these is what you lose changing to the SS alternative but is not a "sad/good " lose. In the same way that you will miss in the short time that " lose " in a short time you will start to " accustom " of the new kind of " distortions " ( if any ) with the 610LP.

Every one of us have their specific targets in our room/system, mine is to stay nearer to the recording and if with my SS phono stage I add and lost the less of what cartridge pick up from the LP grooves then I’m nearer to the recording because through tubes that add/lost is higher that what you could imagine.

My feeilng ( I can be wrong ) is that you are a MUSIC lover that know the live MUSIC kind of sounds. Now if you are waiting that the SS alternative gives you " more of the same " but " better " then don't take that " road " and stay as you are.

My take too is that @drbond ( I can be wrong ) think that you are just an audiophile and follower of the corrupted AHEE. I don't.

R.

Are you using it with an SUT?

Using what with a SUT?  The Steelhead has three pairs of phono inputs.  Two are for MC cartridges, and one is for MM.  You can choose up to 65db of phono gain.  So there would be no need for a SUT with most LOMC cartridges down to about 0.2mV output. (I actually used mine successfully with an AT ART7, which outputs only 0.12mV, but that is probably owing to the fact that the Beveridge amplifiers are "sensitive".)  Right now I am using it with Koetsu Urushi, and the attenuator is not even at its midpoint for very high SPLs in my large basement room.  But maybe you did not refer to the Steelhead.

Van Den Hul Grail - very quiet current mode, I have the SB model

Esoteric E-02 - compares well to top phono stages-  seems to be a sonic bargain 

@marantz8  Not presently. I ran an Audio Tekne MC 6310 (0.1mv) and used an Audio Tekne SUT for a while, but it actually worked better without the SUT.

I have Chinook SE, not a Steelhead, with a Bob's Devices Sky 20 SUT and a Hana Umami Red cartridge. Adding the SUT was an improvement.  I'm very happy with the results.

I am not one for cliche's but you would have to wrest the Steelhead out of my cold dead hands for me to give it up. It is seductive and rapturous when given a decent set of grooves. As I type this I am listening to the remastered version of Kate Bush's "Hounds of Love" with a Reed 3P arm and Lyra Etna Lamda. Drive is a highly modded Garrard 301. I don't for a minute disbelieve that the CH Precision, various Allnic units and more deliver something that can be called "better". But if your Steelhead is holding you back than you have Fifth World problems-assuming your TT is set up optimally and assuming you have heard it with good pressings. My Steelhead is dead quiet, dead reliable, and so satisfying (to me) from every perspective. After 2000 hours I did re-tube it with tubes supplied by Manley Labs which were very reasonably priced. 

@rooze I am responding because I have the same Audio Tekne MC-6310. It was sent to Imai-san in 2021 for cantilever repair and returned much improved. It is paired with the Audio Tekne MCT-4818 SUT going to a Sun Valley tube  phono. My phono is not of Steelhead caliber admittedly and your OP is about phono preamp. But I have two other cartridges, a ZYX Ultimate Omega and recently acquired Transfiguration Proteus. Both cartridges go through the AT SUT into a lower level phono stage than yours. And with the Proteus, I feel that the vinyl front end will stay put for a while. 

Perhaps adding a higher caliber cartridge might be a the other way to go? My apologies for veering off topic.

@fsonicsmith1 I agree it’s an excellent phonostage and I’m sure it isn’t the constraining factor in my analog setup… just interested in trying something different. 
@ledoux1238 yes, a different cartridge is on the list. I wanted to upgrade the arm first, which I did last week, then find a good cartridge that works well with the new arm (Graham Phantom). I regret selling the Audio Tekne. I also sent mine back to the factory for a rebuild and it sounded great.

@rooze There have been times when I thought the Steelhead might be holding me back from pure listening bliss. The culprit proved to be one mediocre pressing after another. Perhaps a present-day state of the art phono stage would have made them sound more appealing. In fact, I don't doubt it. 

I don’t know how you would step UP from the Steelhead? It’s 10 grand. It’s as good as it gets. It’s pretty much the Bugatti Chiron of phono stages. You can go sideways or down. Looking at your system, you would benefit more from different speakers....

And the Bugatti you mention isn't a real Bugatti. But, I digress....

they bought the Bugatti name that was dead for 50 years, hard to say what's real

You ever hear a Steelhead? Have one in your system? I did, for several years. 

Your statement that it can't be surpassed is incorrect. I'm trying to be polite. 

And there is a way to vet a vintage Bugatti, but it requires some depth. I don't pretend to have that knowledge, though I'm familiar with the cars that Ettore made. 

@whart don't try to be polite, feel free to lecture me. After all you spent a gazillion dollars on your rig, and I am ignorant because I did not (for two reasons, one is lack of $$$).  I'd be so happy to learn from you. 

But let's leave cars out of this, you seem very confused.

Ah….. even at the levels Bill frequents..for decades now, he realizes improvement is always possible…. No matter the $. Perhaps that could be your first lesson ?

My best to those who love music and the endless quest for better….

Thank you.

And your first lesson could be to lookup the word "upgrade" in the dictionary and figure out what it means. You are welcome.

This is why I frequent this forum less. Lack of knowledge, strong on opinion and nasty. GFY. 

You won't learn anything from me. 

what a loss...

Maybe if you hadn't been condescending and didn't assume things about me, we could have taught each other a few things, but oh well.

I did hear the Steelhead and a lot of phono preamps, side by side. Your argument that I had to own one to have a seat at the table made 0 sense to me. You don't have to own a rocket to have a PhD in the subject.

@rooze: Are you familiar with the gear tastes and/or reviews of the late Art Dudley? His hi-fi priorities were first full-bodied tonal color and saturation, followed closely by "forward rhythmic propulsion"---the timing characteristics of hi-fi gear, a subject little discussed in hi-fi reviews (Herb Reichert being one exception).

Art preferred the pre-amps and power amps of Shindo Laboratories above all others (though in his review of the EAR-Yoshindo 912 he stated it provided sound competitive with his Shindo). I don’t believe Shindo offers a separate phono stage, but you can do what some hard-core 1950’s-60’s audiophiles did---use only the phono stage of a full-function pre-amp (phono and line stages), sending the RIAA signal available at the tape out jacks of a Shindo (or any other full-function pre-amp for that matter) to your own line stage. Who knows,. you might like the Shindo line stage as well!

I have not heard the Steelhead in my own system or one that I am familiar with, so I have only a general impression.  I like what I heard from the systems I've heard, so it is certainly a good phonostage.  I like what I run, a Viva fono, but, I have no idea how it compares in sound to the Steelhead or other phono stages for that matter. 

I tend to like tube-based electronics, regardless of the potential for higher  noise, poorer measurements, etc.  There is a naturalness, a larger scale, and a sense of the music blooming into the space and filling the room that solid state doesn't quite achieve.  I also like the way tube electronics deliver a lively, engaging sound at lower volume levels.  I am also one that likes, even amongst tube gear, stuff that has more, and better, transformers.  I prefer tube phono stages with a step up transformer than ones that try to achieve sufficient gain with active stages. 

I can only offer some rough suggestions of brands you should at least audition for warmer sounding phono stages.  There is the Audio Note (uk) line that ranges from expensive to ridiculously expensive.  The thing is, their stuff does really sound good.  Their gear requires a step up transformer moving coil cartridges, and they make very good transformers for that purpose.  This is a company that makes most of their own parts (they wind their own transformers, make their own resistors, capacitor, inductors, even their own solder).  Very much in the warmer sounding camp.

The Italian company Lector makes some good sounding tube electronics.  I have heard their phono stage and I like it--a lively, engaging sound.  I also liked the high end Zanden tube phono stage I heard; I believe it comes with its own built-in step up transformer (like my Viva Fono).

Have you considered keeping the Steelhead and perhaps getting something else with a completely different sound just to mix things up once in a while?  That might be something easier to do than finding something that is "better" than an already fine component.  I am not so inclined myself, but I have heard gear that was intriguing such that I might want to use it occasionally, even if it is not what I want to use day-in and day-out over a very long period of time.  In the phono stage realm, that would be the solid state Lyra Connoisseur phono stage.  I heard it in a show system that was explosively dynamic when playing records (meaning the phono stage brought a lot to this quality of the system).  Unfortunately, the Lyra is no longer made and is extremely rate, and even 15 year models when they do show up are well north of $15k.   

@bdp24 Interesting idea. I've heard Shindo gear a few times over the years, always in well-curated systems and it has always impressed. Your mentioning the 912 has reminded me that that particular unit was high on my 'watch list' a couple of years back before I bought the Emotive Epifania linestage, and then later the Veloce LS-1. Perhaps I'll revisit that.

Yes, Art Dudley helped take me down the path of exploring vintage speakers with his writings on the Altec Valencia. I ran the Valencia 846b for a while and later the larger VOTT A7. 

Thanks for reminding me about the EAR-Yoshindo 912.

@larryi I'm with you on the virtues of tube gear. Thanks for the suggestions. I've heard very little from Audio Note's electronics line, just their speakers, which I've heard at shows and up at Deja Vu Audio near DC.

I suppose the idea of running a second phono alongside the steelhead makes some sense, though I do have a second system with an Allnic H1202 and an old VPI TNT that I need to bring into service.

All good suggestions, thanks.

@grislybutter "You can go sideways or down. Looking at your system, you would benefit more from different speakers...."

Thanks. I'm curious to know if you've heard the Piega C40, and curious to know more about why you think I'd benefit from something different. I'm not necessarily disagreeing, just wondering what's behind your suggestion.

@rooze 

you seem to have an impeccable, high-end system and I can recognize most components but not the speakers. So, no, I have no knowledge of what they are. 

From your room size, you could go with horn speakers (not Klipsch). That appears to be a new direction and upgrade in a few aspects.

But as I mentioned above and in other posts, I am the village idiot here, I am here to learn and have little to contribute.

@grislybutter - OK, thanks. I was asking since I've been trying different speakers and thought you might have some experience with the Piegas.

I've had horns in this room and I like a lot of their properties but not all. I've had Klipsch Khorns, Altec Valencia, and A7s, but nothing modern at this point. 

Rooze,

I see that you are familiar with Deja Vu Audio in Vienna, Virginia.  They make custom horn systems that are pricey, but, they are worlds apart from Klipsch, Altec and the like.  Deja Vu utilizes pretty exotic vintage drivers and currently manufactured drivers from Japan and Italy, and these systems are very different in sound from more common horn-based systems.  If you are interested in horns, you should at least hear one of these custom systems.

By the way, I have a turntable like yours.  I also have a Debut with vacuum clamp.  I also have the Basis motor control unit.  My tonearm is the Basis Vector arm.  I have two cartridges, a Lyra Titan and a Transfiguration Orpheus L.  

@rooze

I wish :)

I would like to upgrade some day to the Manley line. They don't just sound good, they are the best design to my eyes, and EveAnna is a natural at this.

Don't wish, make it happen one day silly grisly.  Patiently wait for a clean well taken used unit to hit the market of your desire ... save your pennies in the meantime. If it takes two or more years then so-be-it.

@dabel very true. I can see myself slowing trading up, however the wife factor is real, I don't have good solutions.

@grislybutter,

I've a White Dove also, now 29 years and counting with three of our DNA walking around. I understand ... and your Hail Marry toss has been caught for a Touchdown ;-)

Funny thang happens when you've finally saved enough and start ones search again. She'll appear, or just maybe by that time you've jumped ship for another Brand whom has caught your attention.

@dabel 

will see. I am crawling ads every day for good deals as a way of getting closer to my goals. 

@grislybutter what's your price limit on a phono stage? Sorry if I missed it further back in the thread.