What makes One Music Server Sound Better than Another?
So this week my Mojo Audio DejaVu music server that I have used for the past 2-3 years crapped out. Benjamin at Mojo was more than helpful and the DejaVu is on its way to Mojo Audio where it will make a full recovery.
Thankfully, I still have my Antipodes DX2 Gen 3 (their former flagship) music server so I hooked it up. After wrestling with Roon protocols, transfers, and set-up menus, I was able to get it going so I have music. The DX and my Sonore Sig Rendu SE opt. are both connected to my network so the DX (like the DejaVu), is only being used as a Roon core and the Sig Rendu SE serves as the Roon endpoint for streaming Tidal and Qobuz, with a direct USB connection to my DAC.
The point of this thread is to ask, how come I perceive the the DejaVu server as sounding better than the Antipdes DX? In fairness, the differences I perceive are not great but it seems the DejaVu is fuller sounding, more tonally rich, and bolder. Is this why some here spend $10K+ on a Grimm, Taiko or something else?
If a server is basically a computer, sending digital information to a streamer/endpoint and, assuming that digital information is transmitted asynchronously and reclocked by the DAC’s master clock, and assuming noise is not the issue (i.e., both units are quiet and there is an optical break between the network and both the server and endpoint) then what are the technical reasons one should sound better than the other? It is not that I want to spend $10K+ on a music server with a lifespan of maybe 5 years before becoming obsolete, but I would like to understand what more you are getting for your money. So far, the best I can come up with is lower internal noise as the major factor.
As a side note to the above, when I thought things looked hopeless for getting set up, I scheduled a support session with Antipodes and, although I lucked into the solution before the meeting time, Mark Cole responded ready to help. Setting up the session was super easy and reminded me of the superior level of support I had come to enjoy from Antipodes during the time that the DX was my primary server, including multiple updates and 2 or 3 hardware upgrades, which prolonged the service life of the DX. Good products and good company.
I compared a number of variables between two music server configurations:
started with a good aluminium casing with mini ITX motherboard - with external Farad3 PSU and standard power connector
delta 1: Added Audioquest Hurricane power cable
delta 2: Replaced the cheapy music server with an AudioPhool music server 2.1 without JCAT XE network card
delta 3: added the JCAT XE network card
delta 4: placed the AudioPhool server and my SOtM switch on top of a Creaktiv rack
My conclusions based on this incremental approached:
impact of better power cable is not crucial for the sound quality
JCAT XE did not increase SQ much
the Creaktiv rack seemed to make to sound a little more at ease – however difficult to know for sure
So, the casing, clocks, power supplies, casing and EMI shielding are other candidates. Based on my experience applying modifications to my previous DAC I believe the quality of the power tree is essential:
very good copper power transformer
dedicated power supplies
CLC filter of very high-quality conductors and low resistance
very good global capacitor bank with high capacitance
I also did some tests with isolation feet – did not do much.
Also, the casing (mechanical resonance control) and EMI shielding of the music server should be important – but this is a very specialized area of knowledge….
my audio stack: AudioPhool music server 2.1 >> SOtM sNH-10G switch >> Weiss 501 MKII DAC >> ASR Emitter II excl. amp. >> Harbeth 40.2
“I have however found that I perceive sonic differences between streamers which, if true, would imply that it might be more likely to perceive sonic differences….”
How refreshing to hear someone who “perceives” a difference recognize the limitations of their subjective impressions. In my opinion, such humility is key to learning, continuous improvement, and enlightenment.
The reason why I prefer Stereophile to The Absolute Sound is that Stereophile adds John Atkinson’s measurements to the subjective listening reviews. And I think it forces the reviewers to be much more disciplined in their descriptions of their listening impressions. If an amp rolls off the highs, and they don’t hear it, they look bad. As I’ve said repeatedly, measurements can’t tell you everything in the analog domain, but they’re really important.
I have had a Small Green Computer and I think Andrew Gillis builds great machines. And I do not believe that our server can contribute to the ultimate sound quality of a system nearly as much as a streamer or player. That much is certain to me all things being equal.
for me, what makes the Antipodes K 41 server such a value proposition is it’s support of Squeeze . SGC offers support but it is crude and nothing at all like Antipodes as in not even close and far more cumbersome to switch apps. I think you might be hard-pressed to discern a difference in sound quality between the two. However, if you place a premium and Squeeze, beware of the Grimm unit as last I heard, it supports Roon ONLY You might want to double check.
"I believe this thread is which SERVER sounds best, as opposed to which STREAMER?"
You are correct that the original intent was about servers not streamers, but not so much about which server sounds best as about trying to understand why they sound different from each other at all.
After spending more time with my back-up Antipodes DX server, I am not convinced that I hear much if any sonic difference between it and my Mojo Audio server. I have however found that I perceive sonic differences between streamers which, if true, would imply that it might be more likely to perceive sonic differences between one-box server/streamers, such as Grimm MU1 or Antipodes K50 than between stand-alone servers. This would be especially true if the streamer is processing the signal in some way. My own Mojo Audio is a one-box solution that includes a JCAT USB card but I have found it sounds just as good when used as a networked server-only, being played through separate streamer/endpoints. I will soon be trying a SGC sonicTransporter i9 optical (Gen 3) so I will then be able to compare the SQ I am getting between three different units used as servers-only; the Mojo DejaVu, Antipodes DX2 Gen3, and the sonicTransporter i9 optical (Gen 3).
Correct, I did mean to say server- I stand corrected. I wanted to know what you used before the K41 SERVER. For my music "streaming" I have had 2 different one-box server/streamer solutions, so I have a hard time differentiating between the two words/functions. And why did they both have to start with an S? We should have enforced the "renderer" term. Thanks for the response.
I believe this thread is which SERVER sounds best, as opposed to which STREAMER?
But in answer to your question regarding a cat 6 cable connecting the K41 and the K22, yes, confirmed, though not my first choice and likely not the final solution. I have two EtherREGEN switches each fed by a Sonore Module Deluxe (FMC). The goal was to feed pure fiber to each respective Antipodes unit. I was using a DH Labs SilverSonic out from the eR to the K41 and felt it was quite articulate and neutral. One day after a month it simply stopped communicating with the server. I sold it after confirming it worked just fine otherwise . Can only presume either the K41 is very particular or the stiffness of the cable is such that it has a hard time maintaining a solid connection to the eR.
I purchased a new Synergistic Foundation SX. Never could get it to communicate with the K41. Returned it. Meanwhile, a basic Amazon cheapie cat 6 worked just fine and sounded “ok.” It too is quite stiff. A friend suggested I dig out the Antipodes provided cat6 cable from the boxed and try that. Rather than connect from the eR to the K41 I decided to take the advice of the factory and connect the two units as you’ve guessed. It actually sounds great - as good as the system has sounded. And yet…I feel I can do better, IF I can find a quality cat6 or cat7 cable that can communicate with the server. Soon I’ll contact Mike at Avanti Audio as it seems he may be onto something that may resolve my issue. I’ll pick his brain to see what he has to say. It can be tricky business I’ve learned and apparently shielding can be a determinant. To this extent I confess Ethernet cabling can be a bit out of my realm.
But clearly I like what fiber has done overall for my system. Otherwise I’d not have spent $600 for a 2nd eR, 1k for a Farad LPS, $500 for a 2nd Sonore Module, not to mention close to $300 for a lair of high performance SFP transceivers and fiber. It’s been an expensive lesson, but oh well.
As to your question which STREAMER I had before the K22, I had the Sonore Signature Rendu and loved it. I had recently upgraded the power supply and went to the Synergistic purple fuse and it sounded so good it left me wanting more. Enter Antipodes. Is Antipodes better? I think so, but not by a wide margin. I think the sound is “bigger.” I hear a greater depth of the notes and a wee bit more detail with a nominally wider soundstage. But it is the server that I value most. The software is great and I place a huge premium on how Antipodes supports Squeeze.
I can tell you that from having owned the Antipodes K41 for the better part of 2 months now I’m extraordinarily impressed by the sound and the level of support from Antipodes. Mark Cole is the best. I have it paired with the K22 player feeding a Mola Mola Tambaqui DAC, connected by Cerious Tech Lumniscate cabling - which , in my opinion is the best sounding cable one can buy at any price I’m about as happy as can be with the overall sound quality and I LOVE the degree of support Antipodes provides for Squeeze I’m a Roon lifer and is seldom use Roon as Squeeze sounds so much better
@krell_fan1and let me guess, a cat 6 cable in between the K41 and K22 😉
Since this is a "which streamer sounds better" thread, can you tell us what you had before as a streamer and how the sound you get now compares?
Getting back on topic, I have had the Antipodes music server for almost 3 weeks- I'm 3/4 of the way through the trial period. It is for sure not going back. Compared to my previous NUC based Rock/Roon music server it is much better sounding. What makes it sound better I'm sure includes the power supply, the double isolated ethernet port, the custom designed motherboards and the dual processors for the server side and the player side. But I find the software makes a difference too. I can see now why so many here like the sound of their Aurrender music servers with its proprietary software.
The Antipodes, with its dual processors allows for flexibility with respect to operating software. For example, I can run Roon on the Server which allows me to control the music with the Roon App on my iPad. But I don't have to necessarily run Roon on the Player. I have several options such as not just Roon but also Squeezebox, MPD, HD Player, Shairport. HD Player, like Roon requires a subscription. The first day that I got the Antipodes I switched the Player from Roon to Squeeze. It sounded better so I listened that way for over two weeks. I decided to switch back to Roon for a day. At first, I didn't think it was much different but as time went on I felt like I was missing something in the music. The next day I switched back to Squeeze and it felt like I had removed ear plugs. It was that big a difference.
It took years to learn analog. Tube bias, cables, tonearms, cartridges and then it was dialing in VTA, VTF, Antiskate, azimuth, and cartridge loading. It was art and science and then there was the air bearing ETII Linear Tracking tonearm that could reduce men to quivering jello. Now we have a whole new set of variables in the digital world. What fun...
great systems are like ice cream flavors from a great ice cream manufacturer. They all taste great, but I really love Butter Pecan.
Peanut butter chocolate for me thank you. But yes, is there a bad ice cream? Hmmm, what is Tony's flavour?
Hearing a pair of Quad ESL speakers in the 1980s got me into hi end hifi. Funny I never got a pair.
Maybe a good thing. Just caught a post not long ago on the Planar asylum- fellow has been a huge Quad fan for many years- first pair in 1989- many pairs and faulty panel issues later and looks like the last straw has fallen- he says he is done with Quad!
Agreed. When you get to a certain level it’s a matter of preference and will largely depend on what type of music you like best.
Probably why some prefer to have two or more systems.
I would have either a pair of Quads or Volti horns for a second system. All it takes is time and money. Hearing a pair of Quad ESL speakers in the 1980s got me into hi end hifi. Funny I never got a pair.
@tonywinga…”Leave it to brothers to smack us back into reality. :)”.
Not sure that is reality he is smacking you back to.
You have a really carefully chosen high end system of a very distinct flavor. Your combining Audio Research, Pass and Wilson… well, I can practically hear it. I think few could not be very impressed and complimentary, even if not their particular flavor. To me, great systems are like ice cream flavors from a great ice cream manufacturer. They all taste great, but I really love Butter Pecan.
I have one brother who does not like the sound of my stereo at all. He says he doesn’t care for that hifi sound. He much prefers his Sony boombox. He’s not kidding. How loud his boombox gets impresses him. I was expecting praise and honor for how my system sounds. Leave it to brothers to smack us back into reality. :)
Sooo, which device or app is providing the operating system that processes the digital music file in the absence of a high dollar streamer?
The Apps that you are thinking about remotely control the high dollar streamer. No processing takes place in the phone or tablet. But in the case of a low cost wifi receiver- like the Sony boombox, your phone is the bridge and the boombox the endpoint. Or, the phone is the server and the boombox the player. Is that what you meant?
Interesting thread, mostly above my pay grade ;) Without hijacking this thread, my Mid-fi ears are delighted with the streaming input I get from an Audifi WIFi receiver with an ESS Sabre DAC, controlled by the 4-Stream Mobile App playing lossless files from Apple Music from my IPhone with the current IOS.
Sooo, which device or app is providing the operating system that processes the digital music file in the absence of a high dollar streamer?
Buy mass market gear and it will get you about 50% there. Seeking quantity over quality go for the $300 turntables and hit the used record stores. Your raspberry NUC streamer and an $800 DAC with Amazon music should get you the same sound quality. Enjoy
@tonywinga, lots of assumptions or maybe implications that I don’t see as necessarily true. One does not have to spend a fortune on digital audio to get great sound; nor do I buy one has to spend a fortune to get 50% there either, wherever there is.
Many years ago when Roon released their Raspberry Pi bridge image I added a good quality SPDIF board to the Pi and (after market power supply) fed it into my 25x expensive Berkeley Alpha Dac 2 and it sounded great. I eventually replaced the Pi bridge with a Bricasti M5 once they came out and it certainly sounded better. I bet an $$$$ streamer will beat my M5, but how much better will it be?
The NUC by the way can offer very good performance (i.e. it’s not a raspberry pi by the way) when used as a Roon Server. Take a look inside many $$ audiophile products, and your might see one there too... I’ve enjoyed my NUC running Roon Rock feeding a Meitner MA3. Maybe this is budget system compared to yours, but it is still very musically satisfying and the law of diminishing returns is there for us bottom feeders :)
I can tell you that from having owned the Antipodes K41 for the better part of 2 months now I’m extraordinarily impressed by the sound and the level of support from Antipodes. Mark Cole is the best. I have it paired with the K22 player feeding a Mola Mola Tambaqui DAC, connected by Cerious Tech Lumniscate cabling - which , in my opinion is the best sounding cable one can buy at any price I’m about as happy as can be with the overall sound quality and I LOVE the degree of support Antipodes provides for Squeeze I’m a Roon lifer and is seldom use Roon as Squeeze sounds so much better
I will say, my own admittedly incomplete experience / experimentation ( sighted but w strict level matching ) have led me to running ROON Core on a Nuclueus with a Pardo LPS , on a combination of Panzerholtz and HRS isolation fed by a gamer netgear switch also on a Pardo LPS using SGC optical…… each change evident….
What fun…like mucking about w cartridge loading, vta… etc….
Two ways to look at value. 1) Can I get a component that will make reasonably good music at a price point that I am comfortable with? ie, money is fixed, now find the best solution for the money. 2) This is the sound that I have been looking for. Performance over cost. (Of course we always have limits.)
Glad I never worked for NASA. Imagine the decisions they have to make. "Should we buy this $150 billon rocket to get to the moon or will this $110 billon rocket do the job?" "What do you mean Space X just did it for $500 million? :)
If you don’t mind me saying, you’re trying to reason with folks that don’t have the same priorities as you…digital streaming being your primary source, both of you have a deep understanding and share passion for SOTA digital front end. Folks who prefers vinyl, very unlikely to understand the ‘need’ for a high quality network switch / LAN cables / DAC and dedicated server or streamers designed specifically for digital streaming. Heck, Node 2 or something similar is a gold standard for many Vinyl enthusiasts (don’t take my word for it, just take a peek at virtual systems here).
There are of course few exceptions but for most Vinyl enthusiasts, digital streaming serves as a happy medium for background and exploring music but never for serious listening. That’s a personal choice and I respect that cause I am equally comfortable with anyone spending $1K on a cartridge or $8K on network switch + LPS and vice versa. It’s shouldn’t be anyone’s business on how one chooses to spend their money.
I can't think about what I have spent on my system. My midwestern, pragmatic upbringing screams at me for being so extravagant. I just ordered a second SSD for the K50 music server. My left brain and right brain were duking it out until I finally managed to hit the enter key. But I love music and this hobby. It made the hard times bearable over the years.
I know you are not part of the IT crowd. Just keep an open mind about digital. It is a much different animal than analog. In Analog, less is more but that is not always the case on the digital side. And “noise” in the digital realm is not the same as hiss in the analog realm. While noise in both realms reduces resolution, it does much more damage to the music on the digital side.
First, I have about $100k invested in 4 systems, over $80k of which is in my two reference level systems (including cables). Second, I have 4 different DACs in those 4 systems, and have experience with several other DACs over the last 23 years. Third, I don’t have a “Raspberry NUC streamer”, though I did assemble and deploy a Raspberry Pi streamer in three of my systems as a fun experiment; I’ve since given the Pi to my son in law, who is repurposing it for his home security system. Fourth, I am very far removed from being part of any “IT crowd”; just ask my wife. In retirement (from a career in finance and policy), I now provide IT support to my wife, who is an attorney and works alot from home. It ain’t pretty!
Finally, since when do we get to dismiss anyone’s experience and views, whether or not they’re in the minority in one thread on one forum? (And btw, it’s not even clear that I’m in the minority on this thread; voting loudly still just gives you one vote.)
Totally agree that you can spend a lot less on the digital side and have a state of the art digital front end.
Not in my experience.
Question: Which do you spend more time sitting down and critically listening to- your digital or your analog playback?
Because, until I really went in deep with the digital side, I would play 1/2-1 CD to warm the system up before putting on a record. As the digital side got better I could spend more time listening to it. If you have a decent analog front end I would think that you could tell a difference in the rhythm and pace between the digital side and analog side. I think that is one of the differences that gets me sitting spellbound now listening to digital playback.
When did this become a budget hifi forum? You want value? Buy mass market gear and it will get you about 50% there. Seeking quantity over quality go for the $300 turntables and hit the used record stores. Your raspberry NUC streamer and an $800 DAC with Amazon music should get you the same sound quality. Enjoy. Those seeking something more in sound understand that it will cost more. Each step up in sound costs quite a bit more. It's like any hobby- climbing to the top requires perseverance, stamina and a strong bank account.
Many of the detractors here have little to no digital audio experience. They talk about network switches as if they have tried them all in a top tier stereo system but in reality they have no first hand experience and have only read the opinions of others, then they pick and choose the opinions they like. That is neither good science nor good engineering. The IT crowd are the worse for opinions about audio. Engineers can and do have strong opinions about their products but more often than not test results leave them baffled and they are forced to rethink their theories. That leads to growth.
I've seen a majority of people here on these forums experience positive results with audio grade network switches. That's why I finally gave it a try myself and also had positive experiences. Sure, a few didn't experience positive results but to dismiss the experience of the majority is well, denying reality.
Totally agree that you can spend a lot less on the digital side and have a state of the art digital front end. And, yes, I also agree that you have to spend a lot more to have a state of the art analog front end. And as you can see from my systems posted here, that’s exactly what I’ve done for my digital and analog sources. Btw, I subscribe to Qobuz.
Hey, I get it, and I’m not trying to tell you how to spend your money. I just feel compelled to give an alternative perspective for those other members who might use this thread to help inform their purchase decisions. And I offer that alternative perspective based on my own research into these issues, which draws heavily on the technical perspective of alot of engineers, designers and others who know infinitely more about computers, networks and digital audio than I do. Finally, whether I’m right or wrong, I’m very happy to plow the money not spent on servers and network switches into my analog front ends, speakers, and of course, my vinyl collection!
Hello @mdalton! I am merely stating that I, like many others, walked into streaming and slowly upgraded many things. FOR ME, the Ether Regen was hot and did some but not a lot to improve the sound. The Bonn 8 made me feel more 'audiophile', but again made little change. The M12 switch from JCAT was an easily heard improvement, especially with the JCAT power supply. When I tried the Switch X, (switch and clean network) I felt it was even better. Since I already own the M12, I tried the Switch X with and without the M12 directly in front of it. And guess what? It sounds even better with both switches. Many report this stacking of switches beneficial. I understand for most this is excessive, but I already own the M12 so it is essentially half price for me to keep it vs sell it. Who knows, maybe they each do slightly different things and so the benefit is additive. My summary would be if you really want great digital, buy a really good audio switch to place as close as feasible to your streamer. (I save so much not having a turntable!). I have invested heavily in great sound, so I find the cost of these devices worth it. I would never say anything is a waste of another's money. And I had no problem selling both my EtherRegen (with heat sinks) or the Bonn 8.
And our conclusion is that it’s a waste of money to spend $700 cuz there’s no sound difference; the only way to hear any improvement is to spend at least $3,500? Is that an accurate summary of your post?
I have not tried converting to fiber. I trust many members who report a a negative impact I also strive to avoid additional power supplies associated with the fiber conversion. I feel a good switch resolves the noise.
@fastfreight, there are also many members who report a significant improvement by adding fiber, myself included. Depending on your network components and your streamer/dac, you may end up not adding any additional (or just one) extra power supply to use fiber for instance. e.g. your primary switch already supports fiber and you use an an EtherREGEN or something similar at your streamer (best case streamer supports fiber...) to convert back just before your DAC. That is how I initially added fiber for the last run into my equipment rack and differences were not subtle for my system/environment.
Since so many folks report different things making differences with digital audio (or not), and so many of them being system specific, I wouldn't personally rule out fiber just because it didn't improve the sonics for everyone. I think you have to try it for yourself to decide if it makes a difference...
@mitch2, unfortunately I think this thread is going to cost me $ and work. I've been running a Roon ROCK server in my office two stories away from my listening room connected via a MoCA 2.0 connection with the assumption it is first of all quieter than powerline, and secondly that my last run of fiber and audiophile gadgets would remove any noise from that type of connection. I'm not worried about the reliability of the data path. After reading this thread, just for fun I moved it down into my listening room with the switch that runs fiber to my streamer/dac and I think it sounds better, more fleshed out, less thin, etc. Now I think I'm going to need to keep my server in my room but it currently uses a fan, so I'll likely build a passively cooled NUC based system to use Roon and keep it in my listening room. Not what I was expecting, but like I mentioned above, it just isn't clear to me what changes make what difference (if any) when playing with digital audio (and why).
Hi @mitch2, I had similar experiences with the Bonn 8. Not so with better switches; The GTT Audio Switch X, the JCAT M12 (mine is the gold) and the Network Acoustics Tempus switches are all quite superior and have, in my system and to my ears, an obvious sonic benefit. I have not tried converting to fiber. I trust many members who report a a negative impact I also strive to avoid additional power supplies associated with the fiber conversion. I feel a good switch resolves the noise. I have also gone to AES vs USB into my DAC from my streamer, and find it better. Of course the quality of the AES connection is also in play.
Fiber is always the best connection possible, much better than usb for sound quality. ‘Fiber's resistance to magnetic interference makes transmissions nearly noise free, and it has the advantage of better signal quality’.
if your Ethernet connection seems noisy to you, then on your last leg to your dac, implement a fiber network conversion in that circuit and it will clear up any noise on the Ethernet connection.
I have no opinion on switches except for my own experience owning two Silent Angel Bonn N8 Ethernet Switches. These are essentially the same as the English Electric 8Switch as both are made by the company ThunderData and use the identical board, with the cases being the main (only?) difference. In my system, the Bonn N8 switches work great as switches but they make zero discernable sonic difference.
I am however curious how fiber optic transmission of a digital signal could possibly limit dynamics, and also how a silver plated Ethernet cable could possibly affect transmission of a digital signal to the point of audibility.
One other thing- I remember how good the original Star Trek TV series looked on our new Philco Color TV in 1968- analog over the air broadcast. The picture, the colors were breathtaking. Lucky for us those episodes were filmed. The 4k remaster of Star Trek streamed on my OLED TV finally looks better than it did in 1969. Wish my mom could see it. Between 1969 and now? Grainy over-driven cable TV picture looked terrible.
I couldn't tell you what to measure. I thought these audio grade switches reduce jitter. I'm a mechanical engineer. I know enough to read a voltmeter, bias tubes and solder in a few replacement parts.
I'm working on the applications side here- try it, evaluate it and report. My frame of reference is my vinyl rig and CD Transport/DAC.
With my new DAC/Streamer combo and the network switches the sound, rhythm and pace is on par with vinyl and the CD Transport. I can't A/B rhythm and pace. I have to just listen to one medium for a while and then switch to another.
Right now, I'm enjoying the music and I can't stop streaming. A universe of music out there and I'm finding songs that I haven't heard in decades. That can be as emotional as finding a long lost friend.
Oh dear. Ok, so both of the manufacturers of the devices you have claim that they reduce noise. And Amir measures noise in several different ways. Tell me what he should be measuring? What different measurements do those manufacturers use to support their claims? And btw, here’s a written review of an English Electric switch; same result:
I’m just reporting my experience. If it didn’t work, I would say so. I’m not here to sell something. I don’t know about etherregen. I use LHY and English Electric network switches. Those I know make a difference.
Like I’ve said before, the increased detail and resolution is both good and bad. The detail streaming on my TV rivals 4K blu-ray. I also use a power conditioner on the TV. The bad is that during one show an actor had a wild hair sticking out of his eyebrow. The camera wasn’t close up to him at all but I could see plainly that wild hair. I missed what the actors were saying. All my attention was on that hair and wishing someone would pull it out.
Yes I do. They work. They make a remarkable difference and even more it made a startling improvement to the streaming picture on my TV. If people refuse to hear then seeing is believing.
Oh Tony, say it ain’t so! A network switch? So I understand a lot of folks on Audiogon have problems with ASR and Amir. And as I’ve previously shared, I find the ASR approach to be highly reductive in the analog realm. But ASR does provide useful information for those willing to consider all credible, relevant information. And Amir’s work on measuring noise is important work. You can’t say that a gizmo - technical term - removes noise and then refuse to measure noise - we know how to do this! So forgive me, but here’s a link to an ASR video where Amir destroys the efficacy of “audiophile” network switches. You really don’t want to go there….
Fiber optic is a good way to reduce noise and improve the sound of streaming. I found however that an audio grade network switch worked better and then I removed the fiber link in the chain because it limited dynamics. These changes are quite audible.
Silver plated ethernet cables improve the sound too. That employs scientific principles= skin effect.
With respect, that is not LOL-worthy. At least if I understand your proposed logic, that because a USB cable and a coaxial digital interconnect sound different to you, that the inner construction of a computer can effect what is received from it at the other end of an IP network. Apples and oranges.
One more thing I would like people to consider: fiber optic network cable cannot possibly carry any electrical charge or interference. Many suffering from audiophilia nervosa will use this technique to rule out any electrical interference traveling from server to streamer.
Fiber optic network gear can be had for well, well below $1000. That will categorically eliminate any possibility of the relevance of the electrical situation within the server.
So, even though I don't believe in the difference in the first place, it can easily be eliminated for well under the cost of these servers. There is no need to do it at the server end. It's just a different way of looking at IP network functionality - whether it be twisted pair or fiber, the noise, if there is any, doesn't make it to the streamer.
I am very familiar with Synergistic Research digital cables.
Your input is appreciated. Just to point out, those are not network cables and what we are specifically discussing is if some electro-noise at the server end can effect what is received by a streamer over a network, presumably through one or several switches.
Relying on science and engineering isn’t being closed minded. I have honestly and sincerely considered the points put forward by those who believe two servers with identical software configurations but different hardware would transmit two different "bit perfect" audio signals over an IP network. It is just my belief, which is backed by actual network and computer engineers (who do not sell the stuff - therein lies the difference from the marketing pieces) that this is impossible, and if computers and networks worked as you believe, they wouldn’t actually work at all for things much more mission critical than music.
Mark Jenkins:
“The motherboards are sourced from the world’s best supplier and they cost around 6 times what some of the competitors are using. We tune the motherboards to shift the frequency peaks of the noise generated by each component in order to eliminate noise nodes, so the mainboards start as an off-the-shelf board and then are customized for our use.”
Antipodes also places a lot of emphasis on the quality of the power supply, which they manufacture entirely in-house.
Mark Jenkins:
“What we did with the new power supply was to test the injection of noise into the motherboard at various frequencies to see which frequencies did the least damage to the sound quality, and then we designed the power supply board in such a way that the noise component was in the benign frequencies. This has a similar effect as a zero noise power supply.”
Lovely. I’m sure the stuff is as solid as the Rock of Gibraltar. There may be many reasons why this represents an upgrade over a standard PC running Roon: reliability, utility with DACs directly connected, a bunch of stuff.
But none of that stuff includes sending "quieter bits" over an IP network. There’s no such thing. They’re not dirty candies; they are not elusive chickens; they are the same packet of data as would be if the computer was built of space shuttle parts and encased in lead.
I am not criticizing anyone for purchasing one of these. They look fantastic. Nice bit of kit...nice bling for the system. But from an IP network perspective they can’t send cleaner packets. It’s all cleaned up by the time it gets to the streamer.
Call me all the names you want. It doesn’t change the science or the engineering. And what I meant by "need" is that if you want to properly back up your position, when it’s contrary to established science, the onus is on you. No, you don’t have to. But then don’t criticize someone trying to engage with you from a science and logical perspective.
It’s downright tribal. Am reminded of Lord of the Flies
It does seem to be. It’s just depressing that we can’t engage in a civil manner and that when someone runs out of points they turn to insults.
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