What makes One Music Server Sound Better than Another?

@fastfreight 

Hey, I get it, and I’m not trying to tell you how to spend your money.  I just feel compelled to give an alternative perspective for those other members who might use this thread to help inform their purchase decisions.  And I offer that alternative perspective based on my own research into these issues, which draws heavily on the technical perspective of alot of engineers, designers and others who know infinitely more about computers, networks and digital audio than I do.  Finally, whether I’m right or wrong, I’m very happy to plow the money not spent on servers and network switches into my analog front ends, speakers, and of course, my vinyl collection!

@tonywinga 

Sorry, missed your question above.  Yes, I do much of my “serious” listening using my vinyl front end, both on my “big rig”, and on my “vintage” basement system.  As I mentioned in an earlier post, I find well engineered digital systems to have far less differences per $ spent; I actually preferred my Gold Note (with optional separate power supply) to my friend’s >$10k dcs DAC, where we were A/Bing 4 different DACs in his highly resolving, solid state system.  

Let's face it, vinyl is a high noise, low signal-to-noise ratio medium.  But there’s something magical about a vinyl system done well, and it plays so well with my tube amps.  And for a single malt scotch drinker, it just doesn’t get any better!

@mitch2 

Kudos to you for this observation:

“I have however found that I perceive sonic differences between streamers which, if true, would imply that it might be more likely to perceive sonic differences….”

How refreshing to hear someone who “perceives” a difference recognize the limitations of their subjective impressions.  In my opinion, such humility is key to learning, continuous improvement, and enlightenment.  

The reason why I prefer Stereophile to The Absolute Sound is that Stereophile adds John Atkinson’s measurements to the subjective listening reviews.  And I think it forces the reviewers to be much more disciplined in their descriptions of their listening impressions.  If an amp rolls off the highs, and they don’t hear it, they look bad.  As I’ve said repeatedly, measurements can’t tell you everything in the analog domain, but they’re really important.

@jji666 

It’s downright tribal.  Am reminded of Lord of the Flies; remember what happens to poor Simon when he tries to tell the other boys his discovered truth about the beast?

Recognizing that this is an unpopular view for some on this forum, I still feel compelled to offer a counterpoint.  For years, the official position of Roon was that assuming a basic level of isolation in the streaming chain and sufficient power to run the software, the server doesn’t affect sound quality.  And the Roon founder has authored many technical posts on the Roon forum in support of this position.  (He’s quite good, btw.)

Of course, shortly after Harmon acquired Roon, Roon announces the Titan, signaling a pretty significant strategic change.  They are discontinuing the Nucleus and Nucleus+, whose competition at the “low end” of the market was Small Green Computer and diy NUCs.  They obviously rushed the announcement for CES, as they don’t even have a picture of what the Titan looks like cuz it doesn’t exist yet.  What’s the strategy shift?  They’re gunning for the high price, high profit end of the market, Aurender, Innuos, Lumin, Antipodes, etc. What does the Titan offer?

“Nucleus Titan, starting at $3,699 base price (U.S.) is the only choice for those seeking a premium Roon server that promises a superlative Roon experience paired with breathtaking visual appeal.

• Nucleus Titan features include: 
  • Precision-machined billet aluminum enclosure crafted from a solid block of premium metal.
  • Stunning aesthetics, designed for display and admiration.
  • Available in three elemental shell finishes: metal, stone* (composite), and wood.”

That’s it.  It’s prettier.  So the technical reason for spending a lot of money on a server is that the manufacturer makes more profit.  

Now to be clear, contrary to what I’ve been accused of by others on this forum, I don’t believe that everything can be revealed by measurements, or that cables don’t matter, etc.  I just believe that right up to when the digital data stream is introduced to your DAC, measurements can pretty much tell you everything you need to know(e.g., bit perfect-ness, jitter, power supply noise, etc.).  From the DAC onwards, I think standard, ASR-style measurements are woefully inadequate, and yes, in tha analog realm - which includes the DAC, power cables and interconnects (within reason of course), matter. I’m just a big believer in spending money where it can make a material difference (and not wasting money where it doesn’t).  

My own experience is that confirmation bias is a huge challenge for all of us.  A/B comparisons are really hard, and aural memory sucks.  And the potential differences we’re talking about, if they exist at all, are really small.  For example, where I agree there are material differences - DACs - teasing out those differences, reliably, is challenging.  A friend of mine and I did a DAC shoutout with 4 DACs:  dcs Bartok ($10k), Gold Note DS10 ($5k), Mytek Brooklyn ($2k), and an Okto DAC8 ($1k).  We were both surprised at how subtle the differences were.  Predictably, he preferred his dcs, I preferred my DS10.  

@mitch2 

Then this would be my recommendation:

I absolutely agree with @jji666 .  And there’s a ton of support for his position from a subset of the audiophile community, that includes engineers, designers, Roon Labs itself!  

There seems to be a bias embedded in the arguments from a different subset of audiophiles.  It goes like this:  “I hear a difference.  If you don’t hear a difference, my experience trumps yours.”  That makes no sense from a logic perspective.  In the absence of any other explanations, those two observations have equal weight.  It is certainly possible that one person has a more resolving system, and/or better ears, but ceteris paribus, they have equal weight.  But then, when you introduce the digital science, that seems to give more weight to the listener who hears nothing.  But wait, the first listener hears a difference, that has to be explained by science too, doesn’t it?  Well yes, as a matter of fact, there’s a whole science behind confirmation bias.  Now to be clear, the second listener is also susceptible to confirmation bias, perhaps to hear nothing.  But on balance, the better argument goes to the second listener, because that argument does not require an assumption about greater resolution, golden ears, pseudo science, or faith, to make sense.  

Btw, when I started my own journey on the streaming side, before I did any serious research, I assumed I’d hear a huge qualitative difference when I changed servers and cobbled together a Raspberry Pi as one of my first post-retirement projects (i.e., my own bias was to hear differences).  Just my two cents….

@tonywinga 

I think your example misses the point (by a mile or more).  My home system is way more resolving than my car system, of course.  I always hear more on a more resolving system, of course.  The only question here is whether a change in servers - beyond basic performance parameters - can contribute anything to that increased resolution.  

@tonywinga 

Thx, I totally get your point.  Here’s mine:

Avg DAC + Avg. Server = Average Sound

Good DAC + Avg. Server = Good Sound 

Great DAC + Avg. Server = Great Sound.

The main difference is I can explain why, and I saved alot of $ on a server.  Having said that, I still love your system - if I had to do solid state, I’d be tempted by Pass Labs - and I’m quite sure your system sounds great.

@tonywinga 

Oh Tony, say it ain’t so!  A network switch?  So I understand a lot of folks on Audiogon have problems with ASR and Amir.  And as I’ve previously shared, I find the ASR approach to be highly reductive in the analog realm.  But ASR does provide useful information for those willing to consider all credible, relevant information.  And Amir’s work on measuring noise is important work.  You can’t say that a gizmo - technical term - removes noise and then refuse to measure noise - we know how to do this!  So forgive me, but here’s a link to an ASR video where Amir destroys the efficacy of “audiophile” network switches.  You really don’t want to go there….

Oh dear.   Ok, so both of the manufacturers of the devices you have claim that they reduce noise.  And Amir measures noise in several different ways.  Tell me what he should be measuring?  What different measurements do those manufacturers use to support their claims?  And btw, here’s a written review of an English Electric switch; same result:

@fastfreight 

So to summarize:

TP-Link - $20 (rounded up)

LHY SW-8 - $600

Ether Regen - $680

English Electric - $700

GTT Switch X - $3,500

Network Acoustics Tempus - $4,130

JCAT M12 Gold - $4,800

And our conclusion is that it’s a waste of money to spend $700 cuz there’s no sound difference; the only way to hear any improvement is to spend at least $3,500?  Is that an accurate summary of your post?

@steakster 

Totally agree that you can spend a lot less on the digital side and have a state of the art digital front end.  And, yes, I also agree that you have to spend a lot more to have a state of the art analog front end.  And as you can see from my systems posted here, that’s exactly what I’ve done for my digital and analog sources.  Btw, I subscribe to Qobuz.

@tonywinga 

Pretty sure you’re not talking about me, right?  

First, I have about $100k invested in 4 systems, over $80k of which is in my two reference level systems (including cables).  Second, I have 4 different DACs in those 4 systems, and have experience with several other DACs over the last 23 years.  Third, I don’t have a “Raspberry NUC streamer”, though I did assemble and deploy a Raspberry Pi streamer in three of my systems as a fun experiment; I’ve since given the Pi to my son in law, who is repurposing it for his home security system.  Fourth, I am very far removed from being part of any “IT crowd”; just ask my wife.  In retirement (from a career in finance and policy), I now provide IT support to my wife, who is an attorney and works alot from home.  It ain’t pretty!  

Finally, since when do we get to dismiss anyone’s experience and views, whether or not they’re in the minority in one thread on one forum? (And btw, it’s not even clear that I’m in the minority on this thread; voting loudly still just gives you one vote.)