How does the issue of compression figure in? Wouldn't a compressed signal result in distortion?If it results in distortion then it is measurable. If it is above a certain level it will be audible. If it is audible then it's a lousy DAC sell it to an audiophile and move on. DACs that are well engineered DO NOT have sound signatures they are considered audibly transparent.
What makes a DAC so expensive?
You can buy a Cambridge Audio AXA25 25 Watt 2-Channel Integrated Stereo Amplifier | 3.5mm Input, USB Input for $225, and most DACs seem more costly.
I'm wondering what it is that makes a Bifrost 2 almost as expensive as an Aegir and 3x's as expensive as the Cambridge product, above. I would have thought an Aegir would out-expense a Bifrost by a factor of two or three. What are the parts that make the difference?
I'm wondering if the isolated DAC concept is one that comes with a "luxury" tax affixed. Can anyone explain what I'm getting in a Bifrost 2, or other similar product that justifies the expense...?
Thank you.
I'm wondering what it is that makes a Bifrost 2 almost as expensive as an Aegir and 3x's as expensive as the Cambridge product, above. I would have thought an Aegir would out-expense a Bifrost by a factor of two or three. What are the parts that make the difference?
I'm wondering if the isolated DAC concept is one that comes with a "luxury" tax affixed. Can anyone explain what I'm getting in a Bifrost 2, or other similar product that justifies the expense...?
Thank you.
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Power supply filtering has a lot to due with lowering distortion with digital jitter,noise artifacts do matter. Even usb cables matter a lot if you have quality cables And equipment to justify the added costs for example I bought a excellent usb cable from a Final touch audio Callisto usb , that truly Improves the perspective which brings it closer to what people call a analog sonic signature. I may not hear as well as a youngster but differences in dynamics,and dynamic shadings I can Clearly here the differences in quality digital ,we have done blind testing many times .i view my views on my many years of experience and testing . |
We need to stop paying any attention to dj51. Folks like him have ruined this site for good. Very sad Agon reality. Really hard to learn from the community’s combined owner experiences with various products and tweaks because we spend so much time dealing with the nonsense that derails real learning and community. This forum is all but gone for me and so many others. Start looking around and and see how most of the wise and experienced Agoners are becoming more and more silent. Many have moved on. |
This has devolved into a fuse or power cable discussion. Obviously @djones51 is not going to change his mind no matter any one else's experience and there's no way he's changing the minds of people like me with the experience that different dacs matter and objective measurements do not predict subjective experience. In the end we all have different ears and systems and everyone can be right. At least discussions like these do help readers learn who's impressions they might trust. It's great when you find someone who hears like you and you know you'll like anything they recommend. |
@djones51 How does the issue of compression figure in? Wouldn't a compressed signal result in distortion? Maybe I need to go over to the technical forum, to dig in a little deeper... Someone brought up OP amps and compression, and power supply, so I'm wondering if measurements can offer any information on those items, or perhaps it's only when you are listening that such things become relevant... I guess what I want to know is what is covered by the SINAD, as I understand - just read up on this - that it is a calculation that reflects the pure signal against various other possible channels/inputs of distortion. @audioman58 mentioned "maxed" power supplies, but what is the real world result of a maxed power supply and is this where, as noted by djones51, only those who are fifteen with perfect ears stand a chance of truly appreciating the difference? |
Does this statistical test (below) reveal anything useful about the power supply, OP amps, or ANYTHING else?I assume you looked at the measurements. Is there something you didn’t understand because they reveal everything useful. Basically all these tests are doing is showing does the power supply leak audible noise into the signal path. Does the reconstruction filters get rid of high frequency distortion? You take those top 20 DACs from the $199 Modius to the $ 11,000 Mola Mola and noone except perhaps a few young people with extraordinary hearing could tell one from the other. It’s only in audiophile forums and high fi sales floors anyone thinks DACs are a problem anymore if they are well engineered as these are. Engineers are just chasing specs and trying new things DACs are no longer a mystery they haven’t been for years. |
I'm learning a great deal here. I also find some of the stated/implied money-values interesting and thought provocative. These phrases, particularly: Those that don’t want to spend the money justify having not done so. @jl35 I'm actually not able to purchase the cited DCS stack - looks like it's $80K - unless I sold everything, but the house. Is it worth it? Why? Why not? And by the way, I'm totally open to discussing the worth of wealth, it's associated values, and the way people treat each other as though a few hundred-thousand (or millions...) dollars worth of money in the bank is somehow one of the most important features of one's character, or actual value. We do live in a world where plenty of people rank the value of others based entirely on their perceived income station, and this happens from all positions on the scale of perceived wealth. Nevertheless, having HUGE money is not inherently bad, and we can perhaps benefit from some of the things made for big bucks $$$! For instance, I'm very interested in what would happen if one of the people owning a $50K+ system placed a $100 DAC into that system. The Modi 3, for $100 sounds damn good in much of my listening, so I'd love to see what happens when we punch through the biases we can punch through, because I am of the opinion that people with $100's of extra K's have to make that money mean something, so money has a way of magnifying biases, potentially, or am I missing something??? IMO, you just can't make your millions mean much if you never use them, never 'manipulate them, and so we see the birth and rebirth of luxury, to make all the stowed money mean something. What I want to know is how these things DACs truly compare, with awareness of the need so many people have to make their HUGE money meaningful... This is to say, can you set your biases aside long enough to take a low cost DAC seriously, if your gaze tends to rest on DACs that cost $4000, $8000, $40,000? I am sure that people with abundant cash have been able to explore more of the high end stuff, but do they keep the low end stuff available, as a valued part of the equation? What can we learn from such people and are they willing to come forward, to disclose some of the findings I've indicated...? Measurements on the new Schiit Modius, which costs $199, are compelling, but more importantly, for this low-coster, those reviewing the Modius claim it's better than the Modi 3 and one person, quite interestingly, claimed it was better than his RME adi-2. Let me be clear, it was not a side-by-side comparison, but claims were made based on previous experience with the DAC. So, I'm still pondering this issues of OP amp and power supply. How do these show up in the measurements? Is compression reflected in THD+N. I'm attempting to discern how useful the available measurements have become... I hear critique or power supply and OP amp in these low cost DACs, and I want to know if there is any other way to discern the impact of these pieces before plugging it into my system? Heard a little commentary and I did enjoy the pictured argument between a dead man and his measurements. It's an apt metaphor. I thought it could be refined by taking measurements of a piece of meat one might buy from the butcher. It might come in at just the right weight, to meet one's needs, might even be the right temperature, might even be the right cut, etc.... none of this is proof of flavor! Finally, the Modius, low cost beauty? Does this statistical test (below) reveal anything useful about the power supply, OP amps, or ANYTHING else? Please offer a carefully reasoned assessment. https://www.audiosciencereview.com/forum/index.php?threads/schiit-modius-balanced-dac-review.13769/ |
I just bought the RME adi-2 FS DAC and it is awesome. For me it checked all the boxes, great sound.... unbelievable feature set, made in Germany, full function remote, and most importantly at the price where I felt it made sense because let's face it, digital technology moves fast. It easily bests my NAD M51 which is no slouch and was twice as much 7 years ago. So for me this was the best bang for the buck. |
Power supply noise will show when THD+N is measured. There could be a lousy power supply which would be audible. All DACs will have noise from a power supply but do they effectively deal with it. If a DAC is audibly transparent , distortion and noise is below the threshold of human hearing, I'm not sure I understand the point. |
A: My friend just died of a stroke B: But his body temp was exactly 98.6 - he was healthy A: He smoked like a chimney and ate bacon every meal B: But his blood pressure was exactly at the mid point of normal range for his age and weight A: Are you an idiot - he is dead B: I believe based on my measurements he is still alive A: Dumb ass |
One DAC is $139 the other $10,500 in a sighted test which one will win consistently?I think i am with djones about that, not because some technicalities about measures numbers prove that improved technological advances are inaudible.... I am not sure ears are so well understood in their astonishing capacity to retrieve information from sound .... But i sense no limitations in upgrading my sonic s.q. for the last 2 years to another level completely and my modestly price dac was never a limitation and never reveal any of his own limitations to me if there is some...(I am sure my dac has limitations for sure but whose dac has none ?) I think really that, except if my dac was a miracle at low cost, and i think it is one anyway, perhaps also limitations seeming to come from dacs are coming sometimes from a too much sophisticated technology in relation to the rest of the gear or rather reveal limitations in relation to the 3 embeddings of the audio system more than from the dac itself, or comes from really too digital sound harsh bad dac....All the dacs i owned before the last one were bad, even the best one, in spite of glowing reviews.... They all were low cost one for sure.... My best purchase in Audio was this dac.....Starting Point Systems NOS dac....There exist no negative reviews of this dac and some talk about his limitations being a lack of details....I was thinking the same the first month i listen to it, perhaps a bit lackimg in details.... But with my upgrading embeddings many controls improvement that put my system on another level totally, i realized that the seeming lack of details was coming rather from a wrongly or defective mechanical, electrical, and acoustical embeddings of my audio system, not from the dac at all... Then what is the value of reviews by reviewers that listen to compare many dacs in a not so well embedded audio system and room? Zero.... Because the best dac in the world, if there is one, must theoretically have no sound of his own, it is a translator, the defects are then coming from the audio system embeddings....For bad dac, all people know what is their sound: harsh,digital, cold, analytical etc....Or too warm, lacking details etc A good dac does not exist, it is his best quality.... My dac do not exist indeed.... :) |
I have no desire for a dCS stack as it wouldn't provide anything audible that I don't already have. Take a little Topping E30 DAC it has a SINAD of -113 and the THD +N is about .0024% which is about -95dB. The Linn Akurate DSM has a SINAD of -110 and a THD+N around .001% or about -100dB. Both of these DACs reconstruction filters roll off the high level frequency above 22Khz as required by digital audio theory. Perhaps some people could tell one from the other in a blind test I doubt I could. One DAC is $139 the other $10,500 in a sighted test which one will win consistently? Power supply noise and OP amp compression isn't that important as long as the output measurements are extremely good as long as the DAC can cope, if it can't then you don't have a well engineered DAC. Which of the 2 aforementioned DACs have power supply issues and reconstruction filter problems? |
I see some good points on this thread. People actually understanding manufacturing costs, engineering, etc, and seem to relaize the last extra costs exponentially more. Then I see djones as usual poo pooing anything that costs because he can’t afford it. I can’t afford a dcs stack at new cost, and also keep everything else I have. I could, it that stack wouldn’t be much use without amps, speakers, etc etc, lol. Dosnt mean I wouldn’t like to have one if I could. |
There are basically two types of DACs those that adhere to the sampling theorem and properly reconstruct the waveform. Which means the waveform going out of the DAC has been reconstructed to match the waveform that went into the ADC. The other type of DAC doesn't adhere to this basic principle and goes off creating a sound either through filters that maneuver the waveform or just out right changing it on purpose. Now one may prefer a DAC that has a sound signature but it is not a transparent DAC that is reproducing the file accurately. |
If the $200 DACs filter doesn't alter reconstruction of the waveform or cause a deviation from the sampling theorem so that the measurements on the analog outputs are so low in distortion and noise it's not audible to humans then the DAC is doing its job properly and it's not relevant how the output stage is constructed since it's not doing anything humans could hear. |
To me, in order to get guitars that sound like guitars then the DAC does not add or change anything when it reconstructs the waveform. DACs that are capable of doing this can be bought for a few hundred dollars. Some like DACs that deviate from this by playing with filters or adding and changing things that do not adhere to the sampling theorem and that's fine but don't claim they are transparent DACs or better because they can create a "sound. All dacs use filters of some sort, so your $200 dac has a filter. What your $200 dac doesn't have is a good power supply or a very good output stage. Most cheap dacs use an opamp output stage, which in my opinion compresses the sound. |
To me, in order to get guitars that sound like guitars then the DAC does not add or change anything when it reconstructs the waveform. DACs that are capable of doing this can be bought for a few hundred dollars. Some like DACs that deviate from this by playing with filters or adding and changing things that do not adhere to the sampling theorem and that's fine but don't claim they are transparent DACs or better because they can create a "sound". |
There are so many issues here. 1) measurement of x variables defines quality 2) exponentially increasing cost for marginally increasing perceived quality (the $200 version gives you 80% of the quality of the $2000 version" argument) 3) parts count and quality should represent some "fair" proportion of the final price of the product. I think issue #2 might explain a lot, as it's a basic feature of economics and of life. If you think like a measuring device for a moment, just about any cheap DAC will represent the sound in a "transparent" way. We all recognize what comes out of it as music that conforms to the basic amplitude and frequency response we might expect from the original recording, i.e., the 80%, the 95% even. Along several narrow axes, it might be 100%, perfect sound forever. And on many recordings of music, you might not hear any difference. On many styles of music, you might not notice the difference. Even on a particular recording of a particular style of music, you might not notice the difference _most_ of the time. The thing is, at this stage in my journey, what matters to me is the quality of sound I can get from the musical moments that matter. As it happens, those musical moments are a big part of what draws me to music, of what sounds and feels most like the sound of an acoustic instrument in a room, or the sound of the echo of voices in a church. I don't know what the variables are that help to reproduce those sounds. I know for sure that a $30 or even $300 can't get me there. In other words, that last marginal bit of quality, measured in moments of music, not S/N ratios or other measurements that are in some cases just hangovers from the testing of tape recorders and crappy amps from the 60s, are what matter to a lot of audiophiles. I hope that helps to resolve the first issue, although it's easy enough to challenge me to define a metric that will measure the quality of the DAC, if not distortion measurements. That's easy to concede; I don't have one. I know what a guitar and a voice sound like in a room. I know what they sound like in a studio. I know how much an engineer can and does manipulate the recording to sound a certain way. I still think, to get to the music that matters most to me, I need a better DAC. And I know that it will cost more and more to get that diminishing marginal improvement. On issue 3 I don't have much to say. Of course there are markups, marketing, labor, and distribution expenses that are many multiples the parts cost. That's just everyday business. Of course there is luxury branding for the ultra-high-end. As a consumer, do your homework, proceed incrementally and carefully, keep your ears on the music, and you'll be fine. In my particular case, there is an added sense of urgency. I know that hereditary hearing loss will claim a big chunk of my hearing within the next ten years. The willingness-to-pay variable has shot up for me, as I try to burn in memories of musical ecstasy before the lights go out, so to speak. So there we have it. Music is a meaning-making endeavour, from actually making it, to recording it, to hearing it back on your system alone and weeping, or cuddling with your significant other, or rabbit, or whatever. A device might measure clean for next to nothing, but does it help you to make meaning with music? If it does, then God bless. |
@jjss49 I started out with Schitt Vidar monoblocks and a Schitt Freya+ preamps with a Node 2I functioning as my DAC and streamer. Speakers are Magnepan 1.7i’s. I added the Audio Mirror DAC and continued to use the Node 2i with an coax cable as a streamer only. The difference was substantial and obvious. Way less harsh, bigger sound stage and things just seemed to open up. A lot more space to the music. I then added the LUMIN streamer and completely removed the Node from the chain. A difference but not as big as switching to an outboard DAC. |
@mvrooman1256 curious if you went from node 2i to lumin while you had your audio mirror dac already... if so: - any perceivable sq improvement in going bs --> lumin? - what connection used? - what speakers and amps in system? presuming you used node 2i bnc digital out... not its poor onboard dac many thanks |
Those that don’t want to spend the money justify having not done so. Those that have spent the money justify having done so. And so the wheel turns, and turns, and turns. To me it comes down to what camp your ears tell you your in. I went from a Bluesound Node 2i to a separate Audio Mirror DAC followed by replacing the Node completely with the addition of a LUMIN Streamer. Both phases of the transition were substantial but heavily weighted towards adding the separate DAC. No comparison. |
The complexity of the build ,the power supplies, are essential in the S/N and purity of signal, many aftermarket linear power supplies are over $1500 alone ,brand name , how fancy the case If a R2R multi ladder dac each resistor has be matched to possibly hundreds of resistors ,clock ovens all kinds of add o to empty your wallet DCS dacs with all maxed out power supplies ,and super clocks $90k combo, the best sounding digital on the planet that can rival the best of Anything out there, but Slightly out of my budget !! |
Mahgister,Not one of my attributed citation comes from Groucho.... He is more swift and humorous than i ever will be and i borrow his reputation to navigate with my own philosophical rambling flaws.... :) |
If you can listen and distinguish clearly these 5 brass instruments intermingled with one another in a totally gleaming space, encompassing your room and exceeding the speakers in all direction even the extreme left and extreme right... Your system is good... Empire brass ensemble "Gabrieli" https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=olIrf-uioD8 If you can listen to this piano music of Chopin, Nocturnes by Ivan Moravec, and if the piano is in front of you low chord at your right, higher chords at your left, and completey out of the speakers.... Your system is good... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5BaLVjoLUAQ The last one is difficult to have it right... This is my favorite therapeutic music... Very powerful...Goldman "Holy Harmony" But you must listen very subtle chimes on top of very precise pulsating tuning forks frequencies encompassing the room and in front of you a Mantra by superposed female and male voices... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJRpoUk-mpU&t=344s Try to buy the cd if you like them on youtube.... |
Mahgister, Always been a big Groucho fan. You’re quotes reminded me to do some binging on old "You Bet Your Life" episodes available on Tubi. Still waiting for some of those deep philosophical quotes, but the quick wit is on full display, especially when any attractive young lady from 1955 shows up as a contestant. :^) You wouldn’t be able to say some of those things on network TV these days. Where do I go to buy a beautiful 1955 Desoto with push button drive these days? The other day we saw a live chicken in front of a local fried chicken joint. Why she crossed the road I’ll never know........ #:^/ |
Rubbish! Brightness is first and foremost a function of the engineering of the recording.Brightness and harshness are IMPRESSIONS.... They come from the recording yes sometimes....And this is what i wrote: " Files or cd VARY in relative brightness"... Please try to read a post before trashing it.... Anyway bright recording are unlistenable on some BAD system, way less so on a good balanced one.....That was my point...But you can take a bad audio too warm system and listen with it too bright files for sure, but 2 bad dont do a good one.... And your "first and foremost" forget the way many bad audio systems, already bright and harsh by themselves, worsen the situation with a bright recording...There exist way more unbalanced bright audio system than too much bright files or cd in a collection....I own 10,000 files and cd by the way.... Then your suggestion is wrong because these IMPRESSIONS of brightness may come from one or another or the 2, the recording and the audio system....But a balanced audio system make anything more listenable and that was my point.... Rubbish yourself then.... :) «Logic is a two way sword, dont cut yourself with the sword» -Groucho Marx |
Rubbish! Brightness is first and foremost a function of the engineering of the recording. To some extent the venue and other "external" factors, but primarily the ADC used by the recording engineer, plus any post-recording processing. The early DDD recordings made by Deutsche Grammophon (DGG) were often excruciatingly bright. |
Brightness on any cd or files is not a files or cd defect so much than the sign of an imperfect dac....Lacking completely sometimes of 3-d holography soundstage is another sign... Files or cd VARY in relative brightness, and in their capacity to deliver holographic soundstage, but this variation is NEVER an absence or a complete lacking with a good dac, nevermind the files or cd... I know i own one... Wit a good dac music exist first all time, not the dac or the files first.... |
Whether it's a DAC or speakers, when comparing two good alternatives, I doubt most of a big price difference is in the parts. Many high-end products are built more or less to order in small numbers, for affluent customers willing to pay a big premium even for relatively small differences in SQ. The company may not be over-charging for its product. It really does cost more to make, deliver, and support it. But not (primarily) because they use vastly more expensive parts. Recently I looked at Devore speakers. $8400 for the O/93, $12K for the O/96. Plenty of decent, 2 way bass reflex boxes are available for far less. Devore uses veneered plywood baffles, not MDF. Sure, veneered plywood is more expensive, but not THAT much more. |
@jjss49 Thanks for the short course! Your information is helpful! A) Clocking and jitter have been teased out fairly frequently, in my looking about. I know you can buy external re-clockers and spend thousands doing so. B) Schiit claims in their rendition of Multibit, or True Multibit, a "time-and frequency-domain optimized digital filter," but I couldn't begin to make sense of it... C) This notion of output being "ported" out of the DAC chip is fascinating. Perhaps there are a variety of ways of achieving this, perhaps with some Mundorf opulence? I jest, but it also intrigues. . . D) The Allo DAC I mentioned made it clear that management of power is a big thing. I wonder how they pull it off with smaller DACs, like the Schiit Modi. I have the Modi, presently, and I'm curious about a higher end piece, but I'm struck by how well it fits into my system, not infrequently producing 3-D images from good recordings, and accurate tones in most places, perhaps a bit bright here and there, perhaps a lil under-developed here and there, but perchance this is also partly the fault of the recordings... |
as to what matters in a dac, let’s make this simple, even though it isn’t... a) the digital (bitstream) input signal needs to be received and timed correctly for d-to-a conversion, so clock circuit and jitter reduction is key, this is done by electrical isolation, reclocking as needed b) then the actual d to a conversion / filtering needs to happen with low distortion both in freq response and in timing (phase response) - this is done by the internal dac chip/circuit or discrete ladder network, depending on design c) then the analog output (post conversion) needs to be prepared for output to the receiving device... this is done by internal amplifiers, or transformers, or some other method... very rarely is the output ported straight out of the dac chip (there can be impedance mismatches with preamps/amps/whatever device is to receive the signal to amplify to drive speakers/headphones you listen to) d) all the above needs to fed clean and strong power so they do what they do without added noise, so internal power supply design and quality (and power supply isolation of the analog from the digital sections) is key so when knowledgeable people correctly say, "it isn’t just the dac chip (akm, burrbrown, ess sabre, wolfson...) or the ladder chip (philips tda, etc etc) or fpga (custom circuit) that makes a difference, it is the IMPLEMENTATION of it", that means ALL THE ABOVE designed and working in concert to produce good analog sound, as a holistic system ’what goes into a dac to make it good’ class 101 now in recess hope this helps |
