I have a dual HT/2.2 system running eARC from a Sony Bravia OLED to a Marantz SR8015 AVR, Parasound P5 preamp, B&K Sonata amp (mains) and Adcom GFA6000 for the center and rear Energy surround speakers (Rythmik F12G main sub up front and small M&K K-10 in an opposite corner). Quick thoughts:
1. I recently went BACK to a center channel after using phantom mode for a couple years. The center speaker definitely makes a difference for HT applications and I've determined that I like it much better. Dialog is definitely sharper.
2. Yes, matching the center speaker to your mains is clearly preferable, but not entirely necessary. IMO, one of the most important things is to NOT buy a two-way center speaker with the standard MTM (midrange/tweeter/midrange) configuration. Find a decent 3-way speaker. I stumbled onto a low-cost Elac 3-way center channel speaker that matches very, very well with my Magnepan MMG mains and was very inexpensive. In fact, I like the sound of it better than the Magnepan MMG-C center speaker I used to have (and sold....).
3. HT bypass on a preamp/integrated for a system that is 80% HT is pretty much a "must have". Make life easier for yourself and make sure your new component has it.
FWIW.
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@kaizen28 I just deleted a lengthy post to share two thoughts, maybe three (Edit: or four).
1. You should purchase a new AV receiver, and it doesn’t have to have a preout, which will save you a lot of money. Use the Naim RCA sub/preouts as an AUX input to the AV receiver . . . if you also
2. Make sure your new receiver has the equivalent of Sony’s ‘Pure Direct’ mode that can be easily switched on/off (Sony puts a button on the remote). The Pure Direct feature and its imitators (or Sony imitated others, I’m not sure) allows the original signal through without any additional processing, stereo is stereo, not multichannel stereo. On my system it really cleans up the signal; output to the center, satellite, and subwoofer speakers are dropped completely out.
3. Add one or more subs, driven by the AV receiver. At least one manufacturer makes speakers that accept both the speaker output of an amp passively, and the sub-out signal into an integral plate amp actively. This would save you from having to add additional boxes to get Low Frequency Effects (LFE) for life-like movie sound. You could hold off on this development if . . .
4. You find you prefer how your speakers sound as driven by the Naim, in which case my suggestion won’t work for you. My suggestion depends on preference for the speakers driven by the AV receiver. In my case, the much newer, much cheaper, Sony AV receiver bettered my older McIntosh stereo amps configured as monoblocks, even when driven by a top-of-line Rogue tube preamp, but only in Pure Direct mode. Not what I expected, but I’m learning to trust my ears. Your mileage may vary.
Note: Using the Naim as a preamp would mean having two volume controls in series. I have found, in this situation, it is best to ‘fix’ the first volume control at maximum (100%) and control the speakers only with the last volume control in the chain, in this case, the AV receiver.
As stated at the top, there are many ways to skin this cat (AV receiver + 2 channel sound), and many, if not most, of the posters to this thread have far more experience and knowledge than I do. I’m simply sharing a strategy and its components that have worked for me.
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SOIX - don't worry about my existing setup. I'm evaluating where I need to go. This is line of thinking was started when I started to investigate 2-box solutions (like those from Primare) or a 3-box solution (NAD pre and amp paired with a Marantz).
Actually, this really started with the wife and I struggling with dialogue in Netflix, Amazon, etc. and wondering if a center channel would help.
Erik_Squires - This is hugely helpful. Thank you.
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Hi OP,
Sorry for just now jumping in here. I think there’s at least a small part here I can help you with:
- How much of a difference does a center channel make for video?
My first real jobs were centered around motion picture sound systems, and I recently built my second center channel speaker.
If all you are asking is whether you should go from 2.0 to 3.0 I’d say no, with some caveats. Originally center speakers in theaters were needed because of the wide variety of listening positions. Customers could be very close to the screen but at extreme left or right angles. Among the goals of Dolby Surround (later called ProLogic and then again Dolby Surround for homes) was making sure the dialogue and center effects stayed in the center, in addition to adding surround effects tracks.
Along the same lines of thinking, I recommend a center as important when you have a variety of seating positions (which I do) and your screen is particularly large / speakers are very far apart relative to the screen.
I watch a lot of Netflix as well as Amazon prime and DVD/BD movies. One weird artifact of switching among these services is I discovered that my Anthem MRX 540 absolutely will NOT use the center channel for 2.0 Dolby Digital signals, and there are a lot of Netflix foreign series encoded like this. It DOES use the center for 2.0 PCM / non DD however, which most other streaming services have. Anyway, point is, despite my best efforts as I switch around from Netflix and Amazon sometimes the center is working and sometimes it is not and I can’t really hear a difference unless I’m off axis.
In your case, without an integrated capable of HT bypass I’d say absolutely not worth it.
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The one bit that I’m chewing on is that the AV Receiver is heavily underutilized if it’s only driving the center speaker. So, I looked at monoblocks but that just adds so many pieces to the solution.
You need the AVR both to do the processing for the L/C/R channels and to amplify the center speaker. If using a monoblock amp you’d still need an A/V processor so would require two additional boxes (and added expense). Your simplest/easiest solution is to just add an AVR if you want to use a center speaker. You never mentioned what model Naim amp you have or if it has a HT bypass — does it?
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First of all @kaizen28 I will say you can truly have the best of both worlds and anyone that says otherwise is stuck in the dark ages. HT Bypass is a game changer for sure. ignore the noise in here and pay close attention to the list @tony1954 posted above. BUT having reread your initial thread 2.0 vs. 3.0 is kind of a nominal move. In that case I would buy a well used AVR for a few hundred bucks (keep in mind it needs pre outs) and pair it with anything from the list above. And yes to answer one of your earlier questions that AVR would only power the center, but would feed your new HT Bypass amp bypassing the preamp section. I run 5.1 with a nearly 20 year old AVR along with a very modern integrated.
With regard to your last question yes my initial shopping/upgrade plan was to get the best AVR possible. Once I realized the gains that could be had from pairing the two boxes, I had no qualms about making a bit of extra space. I built a rack to move to monoblocks if needed, but don't think it's remotely necessary. Take a look at my system for reference.
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Having done a bit more digging.... how many "boxes" are you all typically using? This looks like a 2-box solution with an integrated amp and going up to insanity from there.
The one bit that I'm chewing on is that the AV Receiver is heavily underutilized if it's only driving the center speaker. So, I looked at monoblocks but that just adds so many pieces to the solution.
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Connect the AV front L&R outputs to your stereo bypass inputs. Check for consistant phase between the stereo and AV outputs. This can be done by connecting only one channel through the stereo preamp and the other through the AV amplifier and making sure you have a strong central image. If you don't you need to reverse the terminals of the front left and right speaker connections.
Once everything is hooked up correctly with the proper phase you then adjust the levels of the front speaker for consistent output volume with the rest of the AV system.
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If I had to guess, it was an asertion that being forced to manually rebalance the volume level of a front-ch amp every time you change the volume of a multichannel processor is no big deal
@cundare2 Once again, this is simply false and very misleading. Why can’t you get this? Changing the volume of an AVP or AVR absolutely does not necessitate continually changing the volume on the stereo amp, period, and that would be absurd if that was the case. As I mentioned in my previous post that you clearly don’t comprehend, once the reference volume level is set on the stereo amp (and to be ultra clear, the reference volume level is set once on initial calibration and does not change so is always the same volume level on the stereo amp) it just stays there and the AVR’s volume can be changed freely without affecting the overall balance and without having to touch the stereo amp’s volume again at all. Saying the stereo amp’s volume needs to be adjusted every time you change the volume on the AVR is just flat-out wrong information! Again, as someone who actually worked without a HT bypass, which you obviously have not, you clearly don’t understand how this works and as a result are in ignorance misrepresenting that this is difficult or at all cumbersome — it absolutely is not, and even my non-technical wife had no problem with this setup. I’m not looking to get the last word here, but I won’t let misleading information potentially affect someone else’s decision just because you can’t comprehend it. I feel like I’ve now explained this clearly several times so it’s apparent you either can’t or won’t ever get this, so my hope is that others do get it, which I’m sure they will, and that your cognitive limitations don’t affect them unnecessarily. Maybe someone else here who actually understands this and may have a bigger sledgehammer can finally penetrate the thick brick wall we have here.
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OP, for those new here, @soix has a history of trolling those who bruise his ego and, when backed into a corner, tends to retreat with "my time is too valuable to waste explaining things to my inferiors." Case in point. Sorry to pollute your thread, but this one time, I just couldn’t let it lie.
In this case, with postings that are simply getting louder, not smarter, it was hard to even identify soix’s specific point of disagreement. If I had to guess, it was an asertion that being forced to manually rebalance the volume level of a front-ch amp every time you change the volume of a multichannel processor is no big deal.
Well, that may be true for some people. But my point was that you can’t blindly make that assertion across-the-board. For most audiophiles, it’s important to take the time to correctly -- even "perfectly" -- balance front/center/surround levels every time you adjust the AV receiver volume. And, worse, for non-audiophile family members who just want to watch a movie, an extra step that likely requires an additional remote can be a dealbreaker. I can just imagine my husband’s reaction if I told that he’d have to continually rebalance front-channel volume levels unless he was willing to always watch Netflix at a single "reference" volume.
Soix, if you still feel an urgency to argue, focus on that issue. Generalized ranting about how "nothing is correct" in my explanation gets you nowhere if you don’t even try to point out and "correct" a specific statement in my message. But an even better resolution would be to just rest on what’s already been said. I know that not getting the last word may be a proglem, but I sense that this argument has started to grate on other members.
This is apparently, as those in the legal profession are fond of saying, "an issue upon which reasonable minds can differ." The grown-ups in the room should be able to agree on that.
Bottom line: OP, maybe you can live without HT Bypass. Maybe not. But I wanted to at least give you the opportunity to make an informed decision by more objectively describing the problem that HTB was designed to solve. When you cut through the noise, I hope I was at least a little bit helpful.
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Folks... decorum, please. This is a beautiful hobby that should bring enjoyment.
You have all provided me with a shedload of information about which I had no idea. For that, thank you! 🤩
Now it's off for the next phase... more research and listening!
Again, thank you all for your guidance and your feedback.
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Without HT bypass, the two go out of sync every time you change either one. This gets even more complicated when the FL/FR receiver/speaker combination responds differently to numeric volume-dial changes than do the other channels. That is, you usually can’t simply turn up the integrated’s volume by 5 clicks in order to compensate for increasing the receiver volume by 5. Even setting default start-up volume levels on both components does not resolve this issue.
@cundare2 Virtually nothing you said here is correct as to how this actually works in practice and shows you continue to not understand the concept at all. I’m not going to explain why you’re so off base any further because, frankly, I don’t care that you don’t get it as long as the OP gets it if he even needs it. Sharp as a bowling ball you are.
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So you’re basically confirming what I said and arguing with things I didn’t say.
Typical for @soix in trolling mode. Someone more interested in arguing than in actually reading other people's postings.
To quote a great man who doesn’t know his own limitations, "What are you even doing here?"
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Respectfully disagree. Maybe you got lucky, maybe you’re just BS’ing. But either way, I hope the OP doesn’t fall into a booby trap.
@cundare2 You can respectfully disagree all you want but you’re wrong, and the only booby trap is the one you set in your own brain. All that needs to be done is to properly set the channel balance for all speakers with the AVR (as you’d normally do) at a known fixed reference point on the integrated’s volume control and you’re done. So to switch from stereo to HT you just switch to the correct input (as you would with a HT bypass) and set the integrated’s volume to the predetermined reference point and that’s it. Done. There is no need to continually have to reset multiple volume levels as you said, and the only additional step versus having a HT bypass is having to have the integrated’s volume at the reference level for HT and everything remains in balance unless the channel balance is again changed on the AVR. Very simple.
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@soix Respectfully disagree. Maybe you got lucky, maybe you’re just BS’ing. But either way, I hope the OP doesn’t fall into a booby trap.
And yumpin yeezus, nobody’s talking about "understanding HTB." My first point described how a dual-purpose system would have to be operated when configured WITHOUT bypass. Maybe you can explain how a double-duty non-HTB amp would work without having to tweak volume levels as I describe.
D
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using an integrated that doesn’t have HT bypass is far from a "simple" inconvenience. It means that whenever you adjust the volume level of the MC receiver, you also have to manually match the level of the integrated. Without HT bypass, the two go out of sync every time you change either one.
@cundare2 Uh, yeah it really is very simple unless you don’t understand it, which you apparently do not because what you described is not at all what happens without a HT bypass unless it’s not set up properly from the outset. It is very simple, and I know because I did it this way for a year without a HT bypass before I got a dedicated listening room.
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@soix : "You can do this with or without a HT bypass, but it’s a little easier with it. And to answer your question, yes the AVR handles the multichannel processing and powering the center channel speaker. All you need is an AVR that has front L/R preamp outputs that you plug into the HT bypass or any other unused input on the amp. Switching between HT and stereo is as simple as changing the input on the amp, and the beautiful thing is the AVR is completely out of the signal path for critical stereo listening and only your Naim will be operational. If you don’t have a HT bypass this still works well and just requires one additional step I can elaborate on if needed."
Uh, no, there’s more to it than that. I’m not suggesting that this is a bad goal -- I described exactly such a configuration in a recent thread when setting up my own T+A-integrated / Marantz-AVR system. And it’s worked out well. But let’s be careful not to put a happy face on the caveats. It took quite a bit of planning to get everything right.
- using an integrated that doesn’t have HT bypass is far from a "simple" inconvenience. It means that whenever you adjust the volume level of the MC receiver, you also have to manually match the level of the integrated. Without HT bypass, the two go out of sync every time you change either one. This gets even more complicated when the FL/FR receiver/speaker combination responds differently to numeric volume-dial changes than do the other channels. That is, you usually can’t simply turn up the integrated’s volume by 5 clicks in order to compensate for increasing the receiver volume by 5. Even setting default start-up volume levels on both components does not resolve this issue. You can get used to anything, but a lot of people, including me (not to mention my family members!), would find such a configuration burdensome.
- I don’t know if you have, or may someday add, an active subwoofer (this is a "home theater", after all!), but if you do, there are more constraints. Reproducing subwoofer bass when listening to stereo would mean connecting the sub directly to the integrated, using the sub’s internal crossover. But when listening to multichannel, you’d want to connect the receiver’s LFE channel to the sub, without using the sub's internal crossover. (LFE channels generally have integrated crossover frequencies much higher than what you'd want in a typical audiophile setup.) So this will only work with a sub that has at least two sets of inputs: an LFE input for the receiver and a crossover-enabled line-level in for the integrated. My MartinLogan sub does have the capability to automatically switch between two such inputs, but many subs do not.
- Finally, many of the best integrateds can’t be configured for such a setup. You’ll need a pre-out or sub-out if you have a subwoofer, in addition to the ability to configure the input connected to your receiver’s FL/FR line-level output, as an HT bypass.
What soix and others suggest is technically workable, but don’t take their advice blindly. Understand your topology and confirm that each component’s connectivity is correct for your use case before simply diving in.
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I had absolutely zero idea bout HT Bypass. Does the AVR power the center channel?
That’s why along with what speakers I asked what specific amp you’re using. You can do this with or without a HT bypass, but it’s a little easier with it. And to answer your question, yes the AVR handles the multichannel processing and powering the center channel speaker. All you need is an AVR that has front L/R preamp outputs that you plug into the HT bypass or any other unused input on the amp. Switching between HT and stereo is as simple as changing the input on the amp, and the beautiful thing is the AVR is completely out of the signal path for critical stereo listening and only your Naim will be operational. If you don’t have a HT bypass this still works well and just requires one additional step I can elaborate on if needed.
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For HT the center channel does 80% of the work, it is extremely important.
Most higher end HT receivers will let you do zones, you can setup a HT setup, then have a 2ch on the other zone.
Mine is a 7.2.4 setup, all matching speakers. Movies are sometimes better than going to the theater. But it's always lacking in music. Unless it is put into "all channel stereo" But it becomes fatiguing pretty quickly, and best for making noise through the entire house.
Since I listen to music 80% of the time, my living room was turned into a 2ch room with vintage analog setup, and the family room has the all digital setup. They are both incredible at what they do.
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I had absolutely zero idea bout HT Bypass. Does the AVR power the center channel?
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I had the same problem and there is only one proper solution, but like me it may require you to purchase new equipment (AVR and integrated amp) that have the required inputs.
The AVR will need to be able to "pre-out" the front channels separately and the integrated (or preamp) must have a "home theatre bypass".
Once setup this will allow the AVR to use the integrated to power the front channels, while still allowing you to use the speakers in a two channel setup.
In my setup the only connection between the "home theatre" and my two channel setup is one interconnect cable.
If you need to find an amp with HT bypass, this site will help.
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If 2 channel is your priority, as it is for most people here, then just set up your 2 channel as you want it. You'll need an extra Preamp In connection on your amp or preamp. I have a second pre-in on my amp.
Buy a nice AV amp with as many channels as you want. I recommend the Marantz cinema 50 but you may want something nicer or less nice. Run the preamp out for the front 2 channels to the extra input on your 2 channel system. Switch to that input and adjust the volume. presto.
Jerry
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+1 That you need a centre channel....for video, it is the single most important channel...almost all dialog is routed through the centre.
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@kaizen28
Pynkfloydd, yup, I'm using ARC into the NAIM today and that's my preferred choice moving forward. It's why the Prisma caught my eye. As for speakers, yes, we're open to upgrading them in time. Blade 2s are very, very pretty. 😏
I've had great results with a pair of Scansonic MB3.5s connected to a PS Audio BHK 250 into a Yamaha RX-A8. The Scansonics have a nice low end thump and the ribbon tweeters do really well with a couch (instead of listening chair).
If I were building a hybrid system again, I'd suggest speakers that have a solid low end and do well with wide listening positions. Lots of surprising options out there and I've even had good results with a pair of small Dali towers when I lived in a small NYC studio where I couldn't build a full home theater system nor use a near-field setup. Something to consider is that the bigger AV brands also support wireless speakers, so you can add rear channels without having to run wires.
I've tried a lot of top end receivers from Marantz, Sony, Yamaha, etc. and would still recommend an external amp to get the most out of your speakers. I would say that adding in the BHK 250 was a much more noticeable difference than receiver upgrades. The top Yamaha and Marantz models weren't bad on their own, but I was a bit floored when I connected the amp and realized I had missed a lot of potential from the speakers.
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I would never go with an older processor you may have issues with hdmi compatibility, and bugfixes and software updates for older products can be problematic,
you must match a center channel with the mains if the op has kef blades a kef reference or r series center is the correct choice.
Dave and troy
Audio intellect NJ
home theater and music specialists
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Hi.. i am using a douk switch to go between the NAD M10V2 for music and the Marantz SR8015 for home theater. I have a 7.1.4 set up with my fronts being the B&W 702 S3 and the HTM71 S3 Center. I have 4 B&W ceiling and B&W M1’s for both surround and back surround. I have the fronts connected to the Douk Switch and the rest to the Marantz.. Hope that helps.
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The center channel is the most important speaker in any surround sound setup. Yes you need one, the phantom center is a terrible idea.
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Yes. The AV/2Ch set up can be excellent.
If you need a great AV processor, I'd look into a gently used Classe SSP-800 on EBay. They go for around $1.5k-$2k and they cannot be beat. I have one!
For a center speaker, see if you can find a used JM Lab/Focal Mini Utopia.
Good luck!
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we are a high end custom installer and high end two channel dealer
yes you need a center channel
yes you can have one system that does both
we sell primare, audio control and trinov and naim and kef
if music is really important you have a number of options
high end integrated with or without dac combined with a surround receiver or processor
a high end pre/pro and amplifier the Primare gear is superb
Dave and Troy
Audio intellect NJ
home theater and music specialists
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We went a different way. We replaced our rarely used 6.2 surround setup that used stereo bypass with a Sony HT A9 SW5 Dolby Atmos setup that's surprisingly good for music via Roon from the Nucleus. We installed a KEF LS60 with a pair of KC62 subs in our living room.
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We have however found that the mix is such that music significantly impairs the vocals.
I assume you mean that during movies the dialogue gets obscured? If that’s the case then a center speaker could probably help. If you’re looking at only a 3.0 system why are you looking at an 8-channel amplifier??? What specific speakers do you have, and does the Naim have a home theater bypass input?
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Soix, it's just the two of us so we're generally should be okay. We have however found that the mix is such that music significantly impairs the vocals. I take your point about the subwoofer but it may be a step too far for the aesthetics.
Pynkfloydd, yup, I'm using ARC into the NAIM today and that's my preferred choice moving forward. It's why the Prisma caught my eye. As for speakers, yes, we're open to upgrading them in time. Blade 2s are very, very pretty. 😏
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I've ran an Atmos A/V system for years prior to separating my 2ch setup from home theater recently. My A/V system is still very capable for music, but my needs have changed.
To answer your questions:
- Yes, you can put together a world-class system that does it all. Your restrictions are really only convenience, money, heat dissipation and space.
- Personally, I think adding rear channels or height channels for Atmos makes a bigger difference than 2ch versus 3ch. Some speakers are better for this than others. With full-range speakers, you can easily get away with 2ch.
Not sure if any if this is relevant for you, but a few observations:
- There are a few A/V Receivers that come with XLR inputs and outputs. The Yamaha RX-A8A is very solid and a great way to add a dedicated amp. You can also add a dedicated DAC to its XLR inputs, if desired.
- eARC implementations vary across manufacturers and bigger manufacturers will have better compatibility.
- If you're ok with a 2ch setup with HDMI inputs, there are a few options, but not many. NAD M66 comes to mind. There are likely much more that will come out as the Chinese DAC manufacturers have even started adding eARC inputs (which is another configuration option).
- If you're set on keeping your speakers, you'll likely achieve the biggest sound quality gain from adding in a good dedicated amplifier than spending more on a receiver/processor.
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combo systems can work well and are real world solutions for sure.
personally i have two separate system in 2 different rooms. a dedicated 2 channel room and separate home theater with Dolby Atmos 9.3.6 speaker configuration.
if you have questions about multi-channel speaker configuration here is the definitive guide for that from Trinnov, the experts.
https://drive.google.com/file/d/1qFpM5c9_n_0PU6EcW-J5qFvf4QDWqjg3/view
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If you can both sit close to the sweet spot you might get away without a center speaker, but if anyone will be off center a center speaker is pretty much mandatory. That aside, your biggest shortcoming for video/HT is not having a subwoofer, which will up the movie experience and involvement significantly.
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My my needs and my rig is both served well for 2.0, 5.1, & Dolby Atmos (5.4.4). My center channel is a Heresy IV. The L & R are Cornwall IV's. The surrounds are two stacked pairs of sealed box Bose 901's. In ceiling Speakers are two way 8" Klipsch's.
L & R Amplification is Black Ice Audio F100 Monoblock's fed from an Onkyo PR-SC5530 A'V Preamp (2.0 channel always Pure Direct via the XLR inputs).
Center & Surrounds powered by a custom "made by me" 3 channel Orchard Audio Ultra Amplifier. The height channels are powered by Emotiva BasX 4.0 Amp. DAC is PS Audio DirectStream Sr. DAC (MK1). Phono Preamp is PS Audio Stellar.
I always feel that one should follow the THX method regarding the CC Speaker. Either mounted vertically and the same model number as the L & R Speakers of least a bookshelf variant of the L & R Towers (if they aren't bookshelves anyways)
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