@diamonddupree Your post is such an appropriate post for what I was considering doing, that is get an amp with more power at 2 Ohms, the CODA #8 v1, v2, or v3 (600 - 1600 watts depending on version). I actually got some extra cash today for year end and would have been all over a new amp except for the results that happened yesterday. I no longer need a new amp. I was reading a book on how to fix my issue. I ended up contacting the books author to remotely solve my acoustic issues. Take a look at my post here and to see what was done. Follow the links to see the graphs. This solution used a ROON Convolution file, microphone measurements of my room, and both REW and Audiolense software. Some very advanced stuff which I outsourced the to an expert. He has a business to do this type of work. https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/thiel-owners-2/post?postid=2066167#2066167Send me a A'gon PM if you want to discuss any of this by email. |
@yyzsantabarbara very interesting and now I have a lot more reading to do! I just ordered a MiniDSP and I think next will be a mic that I can use to measure the speakers and room response. I think I'll probably still wind up with a new amp down the road but I'll have a much better idea of what to look for when I do. Thanks! |
@onhwy61 I downloaded a free SPL app, Decibel Meter, and holy cow, I guess I should be deaf by now! I'm averaging 100 db and occasionally hitting 105. And I'm still BELOW the level where I hear the soundstage issue I posted about. Maybe I should just listen at lower levels?!?! |
diamonddupree, the Loki Mini
tone control
is very different than the MiniDSP in that the Loki keeps the signal in the analog realm while the MiniDSP uses a 24/96 digital sampling of the signal. The DSP route essentially offers what the Loki Mini provides but DSP has the advantages of using a software solution to how the signal is processed. That is, the frequency response of your speakers and subwoofer can be fine-tuned to a greater extent than with the Loki. But you can also get caught up in fine-tuning and lose sight of what you're trying to achieve. The advantages of the Loki is that the signal remains in the analog realm; perhaps more "pure" and easier to use for diagnostics. With the Loki I get an instantaneous response to how changing the roll off frequency affects the sound in my stereo room. It might be interesting to buy both and compare. |
Be careful at 100db plus. That’s a pretty hefty spl. Mid eighties is typically the highest considered safe for extended listening. Not too shabby! |
@diamonddupree Get the miniDSP UMIK-1 microphone for $100. Then download on a Windows 10 computer REW software. I am not sure if it works on a MAC.
The free REW software will use the calibration file sent with the microphone and setup your mic. The nice thing about this combo is that the REW software has special integration with the miniDSP mic. A real breeze to get going and I had never done this before.
You also need a test signal (maybe called a sweep signal). I used ROON to play the LEFT and RIGHT sweeps, one at a time. Once the data is collected by REW you have a lot of reports available including the SPL report. There are things like mic positioning, where it is pointed, and other things to do. Just contact the guy I referenced in the links and he will have you sorted out very quickly. Idiot proof instructions. |
@yyzsantabarbara I plan on doing exactly that. I already use Roon but haven't done anything with the filters yet so this should be fun. |
One thing about the MiniDSP that I wonder about (if @yyzsantabarbara @erik_squires @tketcham or anyone else knows) is whether it will limit the upsampling available in Roon. I typically upsample to DSD 256, but from what I've been reading on the MiniDSP, it has a sample rate up to 192kHz, at least the USB input does. (Not sure if Toslink would be higher.) Anyone know if the MiniDSP limits upsampling and if there's a way to bypass it? |
I do not know the answer to your upsampling question but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night and learned something interesting.
1) I received a new Matrix Mini-i-3 Pro DAC yesterday ($899 MSRP)
2) Hooked it up and tried to get ROON via RJ45. Did not work since the ROON Certification is still a few days away.
3) I then used a very bad connection. Toslink from my very noisy computer to the Matrix using the TIDAL and Amazon clients.
4) Played a few songs and I am thinking this is rather good. I get to the 1976 song StarGazer from Rainbow and I am wowed by the sound. The percussion is hitting harder with better decay and it seems like the drummer is in the room. Awesome sound.
5) I switch to my Benchmark DAC3B ($1700 MSRP) on the better input of my preamp. It is connected to ROON with a microRendu. My best setup.
6) The same tracks are not the same sounding, It sounds more mellow and boring in comparison.
7) Only difference I can tell is that I have UPSAMPLING to 192 turned on on ROON. I turn it off and now only have my Convolution filter enabled. Boom, the excitement factor in the music is turned on instantly. Sounds as good as the Matrix, better in fact because of the better connectivity I have used.
End result is that I am no longer upsampling on ROON. Maybe that upsampling is not very good or I just prefer no upsampling.
Just an FYI. |
@yyzsantabarbara In advance of the MiniDSP arrival, I now have Roon upsampling set to 176kHz/192kHz, the maximum power of 2 upsampling the MiniDSP will handle. Whether the Roon upsampling or the active crossover results in greater sonic improvement, time will tell. That's some Holiday Inn, BTW! I guess those commercials were right. |
diamonddupree,
I wasn't aware that MiniDSP now samples up to 24/192. This changes everything! Actually, I've been considering purchasing a DSP setup to compare against the Loki Mini but was waiting until they could sample at the higher rate.
I've been recording LPs with a digital recorder at 24/192 and after cleaning the recording up a bit and applying some judicious normalization the sound is excellent. I think DSP correction could work really well after hearing what a digital recording of a LP can sound like. |
@tketcham according to the MiniDSP manual: "Asynchronous XMOS USB input for streaming audio (up to 192 kHz)."
And for Toslink, it says, "Connect a single digital source to the optical (TOSLINK) connector. Thanks to its asynchronous sample rate converter (ASRC), all sample rates between 44.1 and 192 kHz are accepted."
What I'm wondering now is whether the sample rate limit is irrelevant if you're feeding the MiniDSP an analog signal. IOW, if I have the MiniDSP after my DAC in the signal chain, the DAC has already converted the digital file to analog, so wouldn't the DSP just pass along the analog signal to the amp that the DAC fed it? Or will it still downsample the file before passing it down to the amp? |
Here is how it goes....
If you have the money to spend, despite the diminishing returns, the more of something you have, the better it is.
So, having a 1000 w/ch amplifier is always better than a 500 w/channel amplifier, if you do not mind the cost.
It is kinda like the condom story. It is best to have it and not need it, than needing it and not having it :-)
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@cakyol hahaha! condoms! who needs those? ;) |
I'm still curious and learning about the Loki and DSP Mini. I just have a few concerns I was hoping someone could help me with.
As I understand them thus far from this thread discussion, the Loki operates in the analog domain and the DSP operates in the digital domain and uses digital upsampling. My1st concern is whether I'm correct about this?
My 2nd concern is whether either of these devices utilizes parametric equalization (PEQ)? If so, I think it's important to know that PEQ and room correction equalizing are great at attenuating specific frequency peaks in a room, since these reduce demands on a system's amp.
However, they're very limited in their ability to boost specific frequency dips in a room, since these can significantly increase demands on a system's amp, which has a finite amount of power. For example, correcting/boosting a single room frequency dip at 25Hz could require a doubling of wattage or more.
I think diamonddupree/DoubleD should be aware that a single device like the Loki or DSP Mini HD may be very useful but only a partial solution to his issue. A completely effective solution will likely still require a much more powerful amp, at least a pair of self-amplified subs or perhaps even both.
Best wishes,
Tim
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@noble100 thanks, I'm curious about much the same thing and will report back with results. According to @yyzsantabarbara the MiniDSP does have a robust parametric EQ capability that integrates with REW software. I won't be able to try that out until I pick up a mic, which I will most likely do after playing around with the unit for a bit.
My greater concern is the digital/analog processing of the MiniDSP. It ultimately may not be worth it for me if the unit bypasses the DAC functions of my Mytek Brooklyn DAC+. I'm hoping, by placing the MiniDSP after the DAC in the signal chain and using its analog inputs and outputs, it will preserve the analog signal coming from the Brooklyn DAC. Otherwise, it seems my nice DAC is being rendered useless by the MiniDSP. I'd rather have the Brooklyn converting digital streams to analog and not the MiniDSP. All I want the DSP to do is control the HP filter to my mains. I don't want to use it as a DAC. So we'll see.
As far as a higher-powered amp, it's still on my radar. And my sub is already self-amplified. My solution may wind up being the much more expensive JL Audio active crossover and a pair of monoblocks but I'm starting with the MiniDSP since it's relatively cheap. |
Sounds like you are going plenty loud off a pair of stand monitors so more power may be moot but more current may still be a ticket to better sound.
Two potential issues with trying to go louder:
1) the old heat/compression factor that could make it a moot point
2) the damage 100db + will cause to the ears over time if used regularly
In my case, I wanted my system to not be a limit to how loud I go practically and achieved that. But now as with any dangerous weapon (to your ears) one must be careful how they use it.
Also if phase/impedance curves for teh minis are available and show dips/issues at lower frequencies, setting up teh crossover to have teh powered sub address those and not the main amp should help alleviate any current bottlenecks. Remember that power requirements increase exponentially at lower frequency so as frequency goes lower the drain on teh amp increases not linearly but logarithmically ie a lot! AMps do most of their work producing bass. WHich is why getting bass under control in the gear first is so important. You always want your amp to not have to work any harder than it is designed to do and manufacturers will exaggerate that ability often for fear of limiting sales. No amount of room treatments can fix that issue if present.
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@mapman thanks. Learning a ton. So I ordered a MiniDSP active crossover and should have it tomorrow and I'm going to try what you suggested. It's relatively inexpensive so I figured why not? The software also offers a bunch of parametric EQ customization, which I may play around with once I eventually get a mic to measure the room response. But my first concern with the MiniDSP (I don't know if you read my post from above) is that it seems to act as a DAC when I don't really want it to. I'm currently using a Mytek Brooklyn DAC+. The MiniDSP would come after it in the signal chain. What I'm wondering is, since the MiniDSP is a DAC, will it take over for the Brooklyn DAC? I really don't want it to. If the Brooklyn is already converting digital to analog, would the MiniDSP need to convert it again? Would it convert it back to digital and then back to analog again? If I run the Brooklyn into the analog input on the MiniDSP, would that bypass the DAC conversion in the DSP since it's already receiving an analog signal? I'd much rather have the Brooklyn handle the conversion and just use the MiniDSP to handle the high pass filter to the mains. I know, lots of questions. Thanks again for your responses! |
@mapman oh, and yes, I've been listening way too loud! I shouldn't be doing that but sometimes I just can't stop myself! |
@diamonddupree I was referring to the MiniDSP UMIK-1 microphone and not any DAC. This mic is tightly integrated with the REW software.
@diamonddupree Get the miniDSP UMIK-1 microphone for $100. Then download on a Windows 10 computer REW software. I am not sure if it works on a MAC.
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My understanding from quick read is the minidsp device can function as an active crossover and it’s internal implementation is digital. Crossover goes between pre amp and amp, both analog. So the digital crossover must then first do Analog to digital conversion, then work its magic digitally then convert back to analog for output to amp. That is a different function in the system than the DAC. The DAC takes a separate digital source and converts to analog for an analog input into a pre amp.
So the digital part of the minidsp is really a black box. It all happens internally and being digital that enables many potentially marvelous things not possible with analog. How marvelous or not? The only way is to try and hear. It either will make things sound better or not depending how you use it. I would not get hung up on the extra conversions between digital and analog it does. That just an ingredient in the final results. It’s the final results that matter. Personally it sound like a very smart design and I may try it myself possibly someday unless I spot something that sounds even better by then. |
DBAs add complexity and would also likely take more time and effort to
get right initially as a result. If it were me I would solve one problem
at a time....resolve the problem at hand first with existing sub then
consider adding DBA after that is resolved, but only if worth it for
you.
Actually in practice a DBA is easier to set up than a single sub, since you don't have to work so hard getting the bass right at the listening chair! When I installed my setup, I already had speakers that made deep bass (flat to 20Hz) so I only added two subs. I only placed them once. Only hooked them up once (IOW didn't play with phase). I used cheap speaker cable. I didn't mess with the amplifier crossover settings more than once. It worked perfectly the first time. By comparison I have a single sub in my bedroom, and moving that thing around so I finally got bass where I wanted it (and not all the bass is there, its a bit of a compromise) was a bit of a pain, plus the sub is sitting in an obvious space, but where it would be convenient doesn't work- no bass in that location. Well its 45 amps per monoblock X 2 = 90 amps total.....nothing to sneeze at especially with a most efficient Class D design.
Uh- can we do a bit of math here? If 45 Amps, giving the amplifier the benefit of the doubt, so driving a 1 ohm load. The power formula is Power = Isquared x R where power is in watts I is amps (in this case 45) and squared R is the resistance of the speaker This means that if the amp makes 45 amps it also is capable of 2025 watts. If we are talking 4 ohms, then the output power is 8,100 watts. Clearly this isn't happening. A speaker that only dips to 4 ohms isn't going to need that sort of current in any event. The OP simply has no worries in this regard. The fact that the amp is class D is irrelevant in this regard and will behave as an ideal voltage source driving this speaker. |
Yes but the topic was total amps not power so # amps per channel x 2.
Class D amps are most efficient by a large margin. That’s their biggest claim to fame. So they are inherently better at delivering more power and current than others. Just like more efficient speakers are better at going louder with less.
You will have to take that argument up with bel canto and their published specs for PEAK amps and power onto both 8 and 4 ohms. That power double couldn’t happen without the hefty # amps to enable it. If more than enough, then better safe than sorry. Right now the OP still sounds sorry so maybe better to be safe. |
Proper installation of your MiniDSP would be between your preamp and amps. IOW you would connect the left and right outputs from your preamp to inputs 1 and 2 of the MiniDSP. You would then send two of the four MiniDSP outputs to the inputs of your Musical Fidelity amp and one of the remaining MiniDSP outputs to your sub. Technically you could send both of the remaining two outputs of the MiniDSP to the your sub as long as the sub has both a left and a right input but I doubt if you would notice any difference. |
@atmasphere the JL sub that I have makes it very easy to set up with auto room correction. It comes with a mic that you place at the listening position, run a test sequence and the sub's internal DSP corrects for the room modes. I've never had a problem setting up the sub anywhere I've placed it. In corners, against wall, midwall. Once I run the room correction software, from the listening the position, there are no nulls, peaks or modes as far as I can tell.
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Thanks @ https://forum.audiogon.com/users/audiorusty. My DAC is my preamp. The Brooklyn DAC+ is both a DAC and a preamp. But most everything else you said applies. I'll take the analog outputs from the Brooklyn and connect them to the analog inputs on the MiniDSP, then the analog outputs from the DSP to the MF amp. Only thing is, I run XLR cables to my sub because when I've run RCA, there's a low-level hum from the sub that completely goes away when I use XLR cables. And the MiniDSP doesn't have XLR outputs. So I'll have to stick with the XLRs going from the Brooklyn to the sub (L & R). |
I really like the room correction in the JL Audio, doesn't it have a high pass output as well? I'd go that route before adding more gear.
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@erik_squires no, the JL only has a low pass filter. They make an active crossover that does high and low but it's not cheap. I have a feeling I'm going to try the MiniDSP just to see what rolling off the mains at around 80hz sounds like and I'll probably take it right out. I like my DAC and I'm not crazy about the DSP ding its own conversion after the Brooklyn. |
audiorusty:"
Proper installation of your MiniDSP would be between your preamp and amps. IOW you would connect the left and right outputs from your preamp to inputs 1 and 2 of the MiniDSP. You would then send two of the four MiniDSP outputs to the inputs of your Musical Fidelity amp and one of the remaining MiniDSP outputs to your sub. Technically you could send both of the remaining two outputs of the MiniDSP to the your sub as long as the sub has both a left and a right input but I doubt if you would notice any difference.
Hello audiorusty,
Very useful info but I'm still trying to completely understand how the DSP Mini operates. So in diamonddupree's system with his combination Mytek preamp/dac, he would just use a pair of standard/analog rca cables to connect the main left and right outputs of his preamp to the MiniDSP's inputs 1 and 2. Then he would use another pair of rca cables to connect 2 of the 4 outputs on the MiniDSP to his amp.
Questions:
He can use any 2 of the 4 outputs on the MiniDSP?
How does the user know which output is the left channel and which is the right ch to ensure proper connections to the amp's l+r inputs?
Assuming these 2 connections are somehow accurately l+r connected to the amp.
Questions:
Could the remaining 2 of the 4 outputs on the MiniDSP each be utilized as summed l+r ch mono bass outputs, with a single cable going to each of a pair of self-amplified subs?
Is there a method to configure the internal functioning of the MiniDSP for things such as assigning l+r ch outputs and the low-pass/subs and high-pass/main speakers crossover frequency settings?
Thanks,
Tim |
To the OP, and everyone. I am here to not play devils advocate, but here it goes. 1st, lots of good information shared above. Steve Guttenberg, the Audiophiliac, came out with a video on his channel a few weeks ago, asking " Is your system perfectly matched to your music ? ". I think it should go beyond that. Is your system matched to your listening " habits "? What I am finding here is, by the OP, trying to get sound pressure levels ( 100 - 105 db ) out of a mini monitor ( with 7 inch woofers ) is not very realistic, no matter the quality, or power. I listen loud, and my peak levels approach these levels often, but with a pair of modified and tweaked Klipsch Lascala. They do everything I want them to do, with all types of music ( they run full range, and I do have subs to extend the much needed bottom end ). I hear compression with most low efficiency dynamic speakers ( panels too ), and specifically, mini monitors. One of the reasons to listen to music with an audiophile type system to begin with, is to experience the full scale of dynamics and shadings, of the musicianship, of the players and the composers, of our favorite music. Raising the level does not always get you there, unless you have the right system, " for you ". I take nothing away from those using eqs, crossovers, dsp, or whatever else. However, I find it all to be band aids ( ime, and to my ears / brain ), with the added complexity of electronics and cables added to the system, it ultimately hinders the details of what I want to hear, from my recordings. ymmv. Enjoy, be well and stay safe. Always, MrD. |
Hello mrD,
I really don't disagree with anything you stated. I would just add that high efficiency speakers are not a requirement if you enjoy your music at hearing health threatening levels. I know you didn't state otherwise but I thought some might mistakenly assume this. I personally listen to music at about 70-90 dbs but on occasions I will go over 100 dbs when I get the urge.
But I understand my speakers can safely handle very high volumes as long as the power is clean; it's normally high distortion and clipping that damage speakers. My system is capable of playing at volumes well above levels I care to ever listen at but I like knowing my system's capable, consider it a sign of quality and view it much like a high quality car that's luxurious, a great cruiser on the highways, very powerful and fast when you feel the need but also gets good mileage when I take it easy.
I have fairly inefficient Magnepan 3.7i main speakers driven by 1,200 watt @ 4 ohm class D monoblocks that have very low distortion. I run them full range but also supplement the bass between about 20-40 Hz with 4 subs powered by a separate class AB 1K watt amp.
I built my system based on the concept of combining 2 systems: a very powerful and dynamic bass system, that's also textured, tonally accurate and detailed, to establish a solid foundation for any genre of music along with a high quality pair of main speakers layed on top that provides very good midrange, treble and stereo imaging performance.
The most difficult part, in my experience, is getting the bass sounding right and seamlessly integrated with the main speakers. My opinion is that at least a pair of good quality subs are a requirement for optimum results.
I've found getting the midrange, treble and stereo imaging sounding right is the easier part, especially if high quality and well matched amps and speakers are utilized and the speakers are precisely positioned in the room and in relation to the designated listening seat. Lastly, strategically placed acoustic room treatments work wonders.
Overall, I believe diamonddupree has all the necessary component system parts to build a similarly very good system, possibly even better.
Tim
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You may want to go even cheaper than a miniDSP. :) Get a capacitor of around 0.04uF and put it in line with your amp inputs. https://www.partsconnexion.com/JAM-82668.htmlBTW, I have a miniDSP and I love it, but I only use it in my sub path way for the reasons you are concerned with. Of course, if only audiophiles could give up these damn separates and go with an Anthem streamer/preamp or similar with built in room correction and bass management. :) Best, Erik |
@erik_squires the day I try to install that is the last day my amp would ever work.
MiniDSP comes tomorrow. I have no idea what to expect. Should be interesting. |
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HI,
So the caps I was suggesting is the same exact idea.
You'd just have to build your own RCA cable. :)
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I originally drove a pair of Acoustat 1100's with a Sumo Andromeda II A power amp... 240 into 8, 400 into 4 and 750 into 2. They are a combination woofer module and a tall electrostatic element. The panels dip as far down as 2 ohms at 10K and over frequencies. I thought that was plenty of power until I decided to bi-amp and use a second matching stereo amp. Woofer modules are fed with one channel of each amp and the panels get a channel of each amp. Bass was tighter and better controlled immediately, transients such as snare drum and all percussion was much better, instantly.
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All of you are above my knowledge, but would extra power provide less distortion as a result of not having to push thing so hard to achieve a certain volume level. I would also think matching efficient speakers could also help. What about adding a pair of REL Subwoofer. Reason why I mention REL is I like their high level connection because this enables them to act more like woofers to extend the bass seamlessly. Since they are powered this is an efficient way to reproduce bass. Wish I had the knowledge of this group. I'd be curious to know how many of you are dealers because you are certainly technical. I learn a great deal from all of you. |
I run XLR cables to my sub because when I've run RCA, there's a low-level hum from the sub that completely goes away when I use XLR cables. DBX makes a DSP unit that has XLR outputs. https://dbxpro.com/en/products/driverack-pa2 If you shop around I think you can find one around the same price point as a MIniDSP. Inline RCA active crossover? They make high pass filters for 70hz and 100hz. Any reason why these wouldn’t work? These would work provided the crossover point the you need is either 70 or 100 Hz and they give you the proper slope. A DSP unit will give you many more crossover point options and should offer several different slopes. @noble100 Hi Tim, I do not have any actual experience with the MiniDSP. My experience is with DBX and XTA and both of those allow you to configure the outputs in any manner that you desire, From what I have read and heard, I'm assuming that the MiniDSP works the same way. |
@diamonddupree Here is a post that is related to your original question. https://www.whatsbestforum.com/threads/coda-no-16-amplifier.31078/page-2 (post #22). I am interested in the same amp as this guy. It looks like this guy will have 2 amps to compare side-by-side in January. Here is what he is referring to on V1 and V3. V1: 150 Watts x 2 into 8 Ohms 300 Watts x 2 into 4 Ohms 600 Watts x 2 into 2 Ohms
Class A ~18 Watts V2: 250 Watts x 2 into 8 Ohms 500 Watts x 2 into 4 Ohms 1000 Watts x 2 into 2 Ohms
Class A ~12 Watts V3: 400 Watts x 2 into 8 Ohms 800 Watts x 2 into 4 Ohms 1600 Watts x 2 into 2 Ohms
Class A ~8 Watts |
Thanks @audiorusty, there seems to be no shortage of RCA crossovers and XLR crossovers but not many that have both. The only ones I've found are by JL Audio and SPL and both are fairly pricey. The DBX seems to be XLR only unless there's one I'm missing.
I'm so glad I posted this thread because I've learned a ton. (You're not the only one @larry5729! Thank you @erik_squires @mapman @onhwy61 @mrdecibel @noble100 @yyzsantabarbara and everyone else!)
I have about an hour of listening with the MiniDSP. The setup was straightforward enough. I set the high pass filter for the mains at 90hz and the sub low pass at the same. The sub has its own LPF. The HPF I had to set using the MiniDSP software installed on my Mac. Once I had the software synced with the unit, which took about five seconds, I was able to set the high pass. Couldn't have been easier. I'll have to play around with the crossover point but a few observations so far.
The amp is obviously not working as hard as before. I can reach the same SPL at a lower volume on the DAC (which doubles as my preamp). With the JL sub going up to 90hz, the bass is tighter and more finely detailed. I've been listening to an album called Wood by Brian Bromberg. He plays a 300-year old double bass with a lot of slapping, sliding and plucking techniques, which gives you a good taste of transient detail and the excellent character of the 18th century bass. There's a lot of it with the JL going up to 90hz and with the Magico Minis rolling off earlier. And there was a lot of detail already there before. But now, it's even more three-dimensional. It's the same thing with a Charlie Haden/Jim Hall album that's been on heavy rotation, where the bass articulation just jumps out of the soundstage.
I'm not sure if it's the mains not having to extend down to 40hz or the extra headroom from the amp not having to drive the mains that low, or maybe a combination of the two, but the DSP makes both the sub and the mains sound better, and the whole system more resolving. Brad Mehldau's piano from a 1990 Art of the Trio live recording sounds slightly smaller than another Art of the Trio recording from 1997, and both pianos sound smaller than Chick Corea's on Trilogy 2. I've listened to all three albums many times and never noticed the difference in the apparent size of the piano. Quite an upgrade for just a $200 piece of gear.
I guess I should just be happy at that but of course, I have reservations about the conversion going on inside the MiniDSP, which seems to make my DAC an afterthought. I'm really curious how an analog crossover would work but for now, I'm going to enjoy the improvements this inexpensive little upgrade has given me. Thanks again to everyone who took the time to respond and share their expertise.
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@yyzsantabarbara this goes back to my original question which is why does Floyd Toole, who obviously knows a few things, discount the value of headroom? It seems to help in so many scenarios but unfortunately, he doesn’t elaborate on it. LMK how the amp works out. I’m curious to know. |
Actually @audiorusty, I think the DBX would work. I could run XLRs from the DAC to the XLR inputs and run all XLRs out to my amp and sub. Thanks, this may be a better analog option instead of the DSP. |
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Sounds like things are going well and as they should.
Your main amp is not working anywhere near as hard covering only down to 90hz. It’s like putting the same size engine in a much smaller car.
Also the sub is better cut out to handle the lowest bass and that’s all it has to do. Perfect!
You still need a DAC and yours is still doing the same thing it was before. It either sounds better now or not. That’s all that matters. If you notice some thing not there that was before you could always try something other than miniDSP to do the same thing. Or even just an analog active crossover. Many ways to skin the cat. But I have only heard good things about mini DSP to date.
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Hey Diamond, Here is a link to a DBX analog crossover. https://dbxpro.com/en-US/products/223xsThe biggest difference between this and the MiniDSP and the PA2 other than the one being analog and the others digital is that the MiniDSP and the PA2 can do everything the 223xs can plus much more, such as time alignment between your sub and mains, equalization, different style crossover slopes, driver protection and I believe user created preset memories so you can tune your system for different genres if you so desired. The 223xs can only perform crossover functions and its slope is predetermined and not changeable. Though that slope is the most widely used slope, at least amongst active crossovers. In full disclosure I have not actually used a MiniDSP and I am assuming it's capabilities are similar to the DBX. I have reservations about the conversion going on inside the MiniDSP, which seems to make my DAC an afterthought. I think I understand what you are saying here, but the MiniDSP or any type of crossover cannot replace your DAC. They have completely different jobs. |
Hello diamonddupree and all, I was searching for more info on anything Toole has stated about amp headroom but couldn't find much. But I came across an older AVS Forum post along the way that I thought you and others on this thread may get a kick out of reading, It's from about 2003 and it describes his own home system at that time which is interesting. And he even talks about a type of loudness wars in movie soundtrack mixing he noticed back then, in which the soundtracks were mixed for everything to be loud, the cinema operators would turn down the master volume in the theaters and, as a result, some of the dialogue on scenes was not loud enough. It reminded me of engineers raising the overall loudness of cds and crushing the dynamics in the process. He used Revel Salon 2 mains positioned upside down, other Revel surround speakers and 4 subs in his system at that time. Here's the link: https://www.avsforum.com/threads/revel-owners-thread.710918/page-482#post-52485977Tim |
If you "like", the sound of the Mini-DSP? You will love this. The K-231. And, I have no affiliation with these guys other than using this crossover and being extremely happy with it https://sublimeacoustic.com/products/k231-stereo-3-way-active-crossover Because "I" could not bear the mini's change in the soundstage in any rig I tried it in, "3". Plus a few other issue's..... I found this little company three years ago and keep a couple of the "K-231's," around. "I have needed to cascade two of them a couple of times for a 5-way". VERY, "Well designed and with a clean, high quality build American made still too! You can still call these guy's and they "will", call you back. But these seem to be catching on so they are busy..... I have been bugging them for a unit with an ext. case that is at least a, "Half-rack" space. "Instead of the little box. So it will have the room for both, RCA and also XLR, In/Out And those are supposed to be coming. But haven't heard about that for a bit. The K-231 has had both balanced and unbalanced in/out but the balanced side utilizes (1/4 "-TRS ), currently. "Instead of the XLR.'s". The last two they made for me have nice quality "IEC sockets" also. But that, "May" still be an optional, "Mod".. As Mine were. I thought at first the freq. "Modules" would be a pain but as it turned out, I really like them. They made me a bit more "serious", about where the x-over points on a few projects really, "needed" to be. But now I have a box full of them. Ha ha, Looking back? Collecting the frequency modules? It felt akin to collecting, "Baseball" cards.....! Wow, I sound like a sales rep. "Shudders"..... So,
And, I have no affiliation with these guys other than using this crossover and being extremely happy with it It is, "Nifty".
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Hi OP,
Glad you are enjoying your new set up.
I still agree with Toole, in general, that excess amplifier headroom does not seem to have a big benefit, as opposed to having drivers with excess headroom, or reducing the demand on mid-woofers.
The best explanation I have of why subwoofers seem to help speakers perform better in so many ways is not headroom, but Doppler distortion.
It also seems to be why 3-way systems may have a lot more clarity than 2 way systems.
By removing low frequency demand, you remove a great deal of Doppler distortion you'd have to deal with otherwise. The ability to EQ signals below the Shroeder frequency while you are at it is a big bonus.
Best,
Erik
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Thanks for all the crossover recommendations. I've bookmarked all of them. And thanks @noble100 for the Toole link. One thing I've noticed in reading his book and even in his posts is that his observations are for multi-seat listening. In the book, almost everything he has to say about low frequencies and subwoofer placement has to do with optimizing for multiple seating positions. I think this explains a lot about his own choices in home audio. I'm mainly concerned with single-seat listening. My home theater system is good enough for my purposes.
Next move for me is a mic to measure the response at my listening position. Then I can tinker with PEQ and see what that's all about before deciding if an analog crossover is worth a look. And then there's Butterworth vs. Bessel vs. Linkwitz-Riley filters. The force of the rabbit hole is strong. |
Excess anything by definition is not needed. It’s excess. The question with amps is always at what point is it excess?
Another way to look at excess headroom is your insurance policy against clipping. Avoiding clipping should be high on the list of things to tend to for any audiophile. |
