ref1000s do not have custom input stage for best tube amp results nor beefed up power supply.....stock icepower. So may not be best still for a 4 ohm load or use with tube pre-amp if needed, ....even though 500 w/ch. You need somewhat pricier ref1000m for that. ref1000m is what I have been using for a number of years now and still sound very good. Drives every speaker I have thrown at it to the max (Ohm, Dynaudio, KEF) and never breaks a sweat. |
Excess anything by definition is not needed. It’s excess. The question with amps is always at what point is it excess?
Another way to look at excess headroom is your insurance policy against clipping. Avoiding clipping should be high on the list of things to tend to for any audiophile. |
Sounds like things are going well and as they should.
Your main amp is not working anywhere near as hard covering only down to 90hz. It’s like putting the same size engine in a much smaller car.
Also the sub is better cut out to handle the lowest bass and that’s all it has to do. Perfect!
You still need a DAC and yours is still doing the same thing it was before. It either sounds better now or not. That’s all that matters. If you notice some thing not there that was before you could always try something other than miniDSP to do the same thing. Or even just an analog active crossover. Many ways to skin the cat. But I have only heard good things about mini DSP to date.
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Yes but the topic was total amps not power so # amps per channel x 2.
Class D amps are most efficient by a large margin. That’s their biggest claim to fame. So they are inherently better at delivering more power and current than others. Just like more efficient speakers are better at going louder with less.
You will have to take that argument up with bel canto and their published specs for PEAK amps and power onto both 8 and 4 ohms. That power double couldn’t happen without the hefty # amps to enable it. If more than enough, then better safe than sorry. Right now the OP still sounds sorry so maybe better to be safe. |
My understanding from quick read is the minidsp device can function as an active crossover and it’s internal implementation is digital. Crossover goes between pre amp and amp, both analog. So the digital crossover must then first do Analog to digital conversion, then work its magic digitally then convert back to analog for output to amp. That is a different function in the system than the DAC. The DAC takes a separate digital source and converts to analog for an analog input into a pre amp.
So the digital part of the minidsp is really a black box. It all happens internally and being digital that enables many potentially marvelous things not possible with analog. How marvelous or not? The only way is to try and hear. It either will make things sound better or not depending how you use it. I would not get hung up on the extra conversions between digital and analog it does. That just an ingredient in the final results. It’s the final results that matter. Personally it sound like a very smart design and I may try it myself possibly someday unless I spot something that sounds even better by then. |
Sounds like you are going plenty loud off a pair of stand monitors so more power may be moot but more current may still be a ticket to better sound.
Two potential issues with trying to go louder:
1) the old heat/compression factor that could make it a moot point
2) the damage 100db + will cause to the ears over time if used regularly
In my case, I wanted my system to not be a limit to how loud I go practically and achieved that. But now as with any dangerous weapon (to your ears) one must be careful how they use it.
Also if phase/impedance curves for teh minis are available and show dips/issues at lower frequencies, setting up teh crossover to have teh powered sub address those and not the main amp should help alleviate any current bottlenecks. Remember that power requirements increase exponentially at lower frequency so as frequency goes lower the drain on teh amp increases not linearly but logarithmically ie a lot! AMps do most of their work producing bass. WHich is why getting bass under control in the gear first is so important. You always want your amp to not have to work any harder than it is designed to do and manufacturers will exaggerate that ability often for fear of limiting sales. No amount of room treatments can fix that issue if present.
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Be careful at 100db plus. That’s a pretty hefty spl. Mid eighties is typically the highest considered safe for extended listening. Not too shabby! |
That’s good, but there is still not much to bank on with the MF amp regarding how it handles even 6 ohms nominal even with dips below that. So that still leaves things open perhaps to a significant extent. 6 ohms nominal may be a harder load than 8 ohms nominal with some dips...it all depends. You would have to try them with an amp known to be stable into 4 ohms which in most cases mean an amp spec’ed and preferably measured for 8 ohms that also doubles power as much as possible into 4. The MF might do that pretty well but there is nothing concrete to bank on that it would so far. If it could, you would think MF would document it and make the amp more appealing for more cases. Also the bass control offered by the very efficient Class D amps could still deliver a big difference alone. OR even a Class a/b with good documented performance into 4 ohms. Could even be Class A but that could get very big bulky and expensive to deliver the watts needed for headroom with less efficient speakers going louder.
On the other note, I have considered a miniDSP for use with my KEF ls50s and Klipsch sw308 sub and liked it very much so very interested in how that works out.
If we weren't such sound anal audio buffs we wouldn't even care about these details. We'd just say hey we have a good enough system and call it a day. Off course, no self respecting audio kook would EVER do that right? |
Well its 45 amps per monoblock X 2 = 90 amps total.....nothing to sneeze at especially with a most efficient Class D design.
Musical Fidelity is a stereo amp so most likely the peak is 140A total.
Again, specs never tell all the story, but in lieu of similar measured specs into 4 ohms, 140 amps peak alone is more grey. It’s not uncommon for amps to cite high peak current delivery but without measurements or specs indicating what that means into 4 and even 2 ohms, its harder to make a valid comparison. Not to mention one being very efficient Class D and the other less so Class a/b.
Measurements from an independent source is best. Bel Canto amps regularly get the full review and measurement treatment from Stereophile to add clarity.
Meanwhile every Class D amp I have heard matched properly to pre-amp delivers a vice like grip on the bass that might sound relatively lean to some. WHen I first turned on my ref1000ms, I thought the bass was totally gone. No exaggeration. THen once my ears adjusted I heard it all.....extended, detailed controlled and articulate, not as fat flabby and one note as before.
Meanwhile newer BEl Canto Class D amps claim stability into 3 if not two ohms. That’s pretty good! DO Minis imdepance go lower than 3-4 ohms at any frequency? How about phase? DOn’t know offhand but that would tell even more about how difficult a load they might be or not. |
Sounds like a plan. I am very interested to hear how much different or not the BCs sound from your current amps and how that pans out for you.
I'll go out on a limb based on my prior MF->BC Class D change which is similar but different and say the difference will be clear and noticeable, FBOFW. |
If it were me that owned the Magico Mini’s like any very good speaker, I would do anything I could ie throw the kitchen sink at it as needed to allow it to perform at its best before adding anything else.
That’s what I did with my big Ohm 5s and it payed off 100%. No subs!!
I never felt a need to add a sub even with the Dynaudio Contour monitors, though for some more extended recordings it would certainly have helped.
I do use a sub with my kef ls50s. Those are the smallest monitors I have run regularly but wonderful within their limits and with a sub they are top notch, up to a certain SPL level that is more than satisfactory in the small room they are in. THe kefs + sub cannot compete with the much larger Ohm 5s in a much larger room with no sub in terms of going loud and clear.
The Ohm 5’s with the 500 w/ch Class D Bel Cantos are the bomb. You turn up the volume and they keep going louder and clear until you reach those very high SPL levels that eventually get uncomfortable and can even cause damage to to the ear no matter what. THing is you never realize how loud the things are actually playing until you try to talk to someone and hear. That’s always a good sign from a distortion perspective! I know Ralph would agree with that. Compression is not an issue.
My goal was to be able to do that. It took the 500 w/ch Class D BEl Cantos to do that. The previous 120 w/ch Musical Fidelity was no match. Nor the 330 w/ch Carver amp prior to that (voiced like a tube amp, limited current delivery into 4 ohms). The Carver did very well with the Magnepans I had prior to the big Ohms though.
Magico Minis.....those are very good standmount speakers.....larger than many if not most. I would not expect them to compete with larger speakers of similar quality in terms of ability to go loud, but would expect them to be more than capable alone in a small to modest sized room driven to their max. Again, would be nice if other Magico mini owners would chirp in with their actual experiences trying to crank up the minis. |
A DBA has its own benefits regarding good bass throughout the room but only 1 sub is needed to offload work and reduce risk of compression initially although a DBA might introduce some unique connection requirements that would have to be addressed sooner or later so best to consider that up front.
DBAs add complexity and would also likely take more time and effort to get right initially as a result. If it were me I would solve one problem at a time....resolve the problem at hand first with existing sub then consider adding DBA after that is resolved, but only if worth it for you.
OR try those Bel Canto Class D amps as well if you can with no financial risk. That would keep things simplest and might make a big difference. How much will depend on the Magico’s ability to go loud without significant compression and how well the current amps truly can stand up. Other Magico mini owners would probably be best ones to provide information on how well they go loud and dynamic. Compression is real but may or may not be a significant issue case by case. Smaller speakers certainly up the risk. Sometimes you never know until you try. It’s nice to only have to add subs to extend the bass, not as part of a solution to fix it. Unless you are a "bass hound", I would expect the Minis driven to their max to be all the speaker most would need in most rooms, at least if room is not too large. |
I may have blurred the two above somewhat but just to be clear current delivery is more about tonal quality as well as articulate and detailed bass with difficult loads. Power is more about headroom and clipping with less efficient speakers. Two different kinds of distortion. Most good quality smaller yet bass extended speakers like Magico Mini are necessarily both less efficient and a difficult load. |
Dynamic headroom means having more power than you need.
If you don’t the amp may clip during dynamic peaks.
If I ran the servers where I work without the dynamic headroom needed to handle peak workloads, they would crash and I be out of a job.
Same concept. Dynamic headroom is your insurance against clipping and yes you need more power and often current to get it with less efficient speakers.
More efficient speakers may still present a difficult load and require more current to sound their best so that alone is not a panacea.
Very large speakers are typically more efficient. Some are also easy loads, some less so.
If you want smaller but capable speakers like Magicos, the amp has to be able to up its game to deliver the goods.
Either way or anything in between can work out top notch. You just have to get the system matched and set up well to meet your needs.
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If you can try the Bel Cantos with no obligation that would be worthwhile I think. I am a big fan of Bel Canto and their products are typically highly regarded in reviews. I also have a c5i digital integrated (60 w 8 ohm/120 to 4) in my smaller family room 2 channel a/v system with my smaller Ohms.
Using a crossover to offload work from the monitors and have the sub pick up the slack is a very reasonable thing to try.
Can’t say what will sound best. Only you can tell. But those are both very reasonable and sound things to try.
Sounds like your MF amp can deliver twice the juice to 4 ohms at least for short peaks that require it. That’s not uncommon and still a good thing. How good? Would need some measurements to know and compare. |
Its not "impossible". Like everything it just has to be done right to get the most out of it. The system is only as good as the weakest link. Not just any amp is likely to cut it with the Magicos.
I heard the minis off a very pricey VAC tube amp and a 6 digit system overall at Sound By Singer in a smaller showroom. That combo was top notch, as good as anything, at least at modest volume in a modest size room. The VAC had plenty of juice for the speakers in that room at modest volume. Did not try to go concert level though its not unreasonable to want to be able to do that. I do. But it may well take larger speakers as well to do that. Most monitors can’t, but Magico Mini’s are not most monitors.
Also headroom is not useless. It’s your insurance policy against clipping. |
In my case, just for comparison, I moved from a Musical Fidelity A3CR stereo amp, 120w/ch 8 ohm, 210 into 4ohm spec amp to BEl Canto ref1000m monoblocks, Class D, 500 w/ch 8 ohm, 1000 into 4. The difference in bass control and articulation at all volumes was night and day....simply transformative. This was with both large Ohm 5 and smaller Dynaudio Contour 1.3 mkII monitors, both notorious power and current hungry products.
Class D amps have a reputation in general for vice like bass control, hence their popularity in powered subs. |
What atmasphere said about effects of heat on speaker dynamics is certainly true but different speakers address that differently with different levels of effectiveness using technologies like ferrofluid, etc. Ohm is a good example of a speaker that handles power and current very well! I can vouch for that! I would expect the same of the Magicos but can’t say for certain. These are Magico Mini IIs, correct? Though wonderful speakers ( I recall auditioning them well) they are stand mount monitors and were low in the Magico line in their day and could have output level limitations. Not uncommon for many very good monitor speakers.
I have read of claims from Musical Fidelity for that amp to be able to deliver over 100 amps of current which would be very good, but at the same time no measurements or even published specs I can see to verify that. That would be quite exceptional for a Class a/b integrated amp I would say. Too good to be true? Don’t know.
If the speakers are the limitation, adding a separate powered sub and active crossover to limit the low end extension of the Magicos would be a practical thing to try to offload much of the work from the monitors and make them not have to work so hard.
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Diamond,
That’s a function of the amp. I don’t see specs or even better test measurements like Stereophile typically does for your amp into 4 ohms? Generally the beefiest amps capable of driving the toughest loads and delivering current as needed will double power output from 8 to 4 ohms and largely again into 2 ohms. So hard to say exactly where your amp stands in that regard. In general, it is less common for integrated amps to be able to do that but some can. More common with Class D integrated amps than class a/b but the best class a/b integrated amps may still do that quite well. |
More power and headroom alone may help get bass right especially at high SPLs by avoiding clipping, but alone is most likely not a complete solution in most cases.
Current delivery and related damping factor of an amp also contributes. How much will vary but more difficult load speakers generally benefit from more current delivery capability to control the bass better, meaning a beefier amp than one perhaps of similar power but less current delivery capability. Power and current are not the same thing.
For example Magnepans are not very efficient and benefit from more power but not nearly as much from more current than many dynamic models. Smaller dynamic designs with more extended bass tend to be the least efficient and to also present a more challenging load, so more power and current is typically the key there.
OF course then room acoustics are a big factor for bass frequency response and all that goes with that as well, but that has nothing to do with the gear itself. Once you have an idea of approximately where the speakers will be located, its much easier to get the gear matching right first, then deal with the much harder room acoustics after. Having flexibility in final speaker location is a big help when it comes to bass and room acoustics in general. |
