What is best turntable for listening to Rock from the sixties like Led Zeppelin?

how about an original general electric wildcat. that's probably what the records were originally played on. 

A REGA P3/24 or an older P3 would work very well with a Dyanavector 10X5 or the REGA Exact cartridges.

Matt M

Technics 1200 with Shure V-15 Type III cart.  This will give the non-revealing edgy unsophisticated crass sound you crave.  No, really.  Best of luck.

I love Led Zeppelin and listen to it through a Clear Audio concept wood. Sounds lush . Oh the cartridge is MC . All the best in your decision . 👍

Best for rock? The Rockport, of course.

I'd look for a decent direct drive ie the Technics as celtic66 has mentioned. 

TW Raven GT will sound wonderful with great detail,stage width,depth,imaging and great bass.

Thanks for all the suggestions. I was a "belt-drive. floating suspension" guy when I was young, but hearing Zeppelin on a Technics player (could have well been SL1200), Shure cart, McIntosh vintage solid-state pre, Crown amplifier, and JBLs, made me realize something was very right about this (celtic66 is right). If you are lucky to own a few TTs, occasionally listening to a very laid back and lush presentation can also be a lot of fun (so also agree with steve 1979).

Before I answer this question, can anyone recommend the best lined notebook for 8th grade pupil?

I'm miffed as to the premise of this question. Any table and cartridge combo that is honest to timbre and reproduction should do your recordings justice. If you find the recordings are compromised and require correction of some sort, I would suggest that you don't use your source as an EQ but rather buy an EQ or something that will give you the tonal correction you require.

Using a table as a narrow and specific tone control is not the way to go. It is a dead end path and will not serve you well in the long run.

"Using a table as a narrow and specific tone control is not the way to go. It is a dead end path and will not serve you well in the long run." +1

First of all, if you have good copies of their LPs some of the LZ albums sound amazing on a good system. You don't need to hide the detail of the recordings. You should hear dynamic full bodied drums, delicate acoustic guitar, throaty resonant vocals, etc. 
If you're listening to $1 garage sale beaters, getting a cartridge with stylus type that's good at slogging through those would yield some betterment of a bad situation, but that's all it is. Cheers,
Spencer

sbank, for cheap 80's reissues and pressings EQ is important.

Thanks Raymonda. I do have an FM Acoustics linearizer that is for this purpose that I should play around with more.

Rockport of course would do as would modified high-end Technics. But that's big money. For little money, by audiophile standards, you want Nottingham Spacedeck/Spacearm with motor controller. As for the cartridge, well, there are many that would work. The Goldring 1042 MM that I have does quite well with Mahavishnu Orchestra and it would with Led Zepplin.
Roksan would probably be a good choice too, but I am unfamiliar with it, just read something somewhere.

John---Since you mentioned the Decca cartridge, and as a follow-up to Geoff’s great pun, I recommend the Townshend Rock table. The Decca was actually a factor in the table’s design, and the two are known to be a synergistic match (the table’s damping trough tames the microphony and resonance found in Deccas). The Rock provides very tight bass, a good thing for all music, of course, but none more so than the 60’s Rock you mentioned. It also minimizes LP surface noise, helpful with old records.

Thanks bdp24. If I was starting from scratch I would optimize everything for the Decca, although I did get good results on a PT/RB300/Garrot-Decca and Linn Axis/Akito/Decca-Maroon in the past. I would have sub-tables to play my other carts course, but a Decca makes a bigger difference than turntables (so in my experience, Decca on a Linn Axis/Akito was more interesting than Pink PT or Micro Seiki BL91 with RB300/Ikeda tonearms playing more expensive MCs). When I say more interesting, I mean a sound you cannot get from CD (my Chord and CECs).

Agree 100 per cent John. Transducers differ in character more than other components imo, and the Decca/London most especially. So alive, so dynamic! Makes other cartridges sound so reserved, so polite. Ironic, the Decca being so iconically British and all.

Music style specific gear seems strange to me, but I'll bite. I have plenty of LPs from the 60s because I was there (old person alert), and I suggest listening to any of it with the best turntable you can afford. I also suggest the first Jeff Beck album ("Truth") as I think it's more interesting and I actually do still listen to that one. An early (for me anyway) band I was in opened for Zep once on part 2 of their first US tour (May 1969)…early live Zep were crazy dynamic (!) and actually really nice guys. They used our bass rig (2 Sunn 2000S amps, and one 200S…large and loud). You kids have no idea…*snort*…*cough*...

Wolf, I saw the Jeff Beck Group on their first U.S. tour, and they were great. Ron Wood playing bass (a Telecaster!), Mickey Waller drumming, Rod Stewart singing. Jeff was really fantastic.

Funkfirm, Rega, Technics SP10, Gararrd 301/401 Turntables all do terrific with Rock. They have to be in good condition and matched with the right tonearm and cart. You can also look at the reference Lenco by Jean Nantais. 

Get a nice Rega tonearm to go with any of these. Cartridge choices are many, based on your phono stage. 

This is one of the biggest myths in audio- that certain types of equipment might favor a certain kind of music. The fact is the equipment does not care and does not exercise any taste at all.

A good turntable will treat all kinds of music the same.

Pretty much any good quality one set up right.    Most Led Zep recordings are not very challenging on the grande scale of things.    But any good table set up right should be able to deliver what's there and make any Zep fan pretty happy.

 I have to agree with mapman..Ive listened to Zepplin on a nice VPI table as well as a cheap Philips ga212 and it sounds close IMO .I suggest getting sacd and give it a twirl..

Note that my turntable could not do well with the "unplugged" Norwegian Gypsy Death Metal Polka tribute to Myron Floren albums (there are four), but this could have been due to the fact that I took the "unplugged" part perhaps too literally.

I'm with Atmasphere on this as it comes up often, "What preamp should I use for modern jazz, solo oboe, and recordings of caterwauling chimpanzees in heat?"

Also, when I was 18 and playing in the aforementioned band, a local groupie told me she heard the Jeff Beck group and thought I should try to be like Rod Stewart. Yeah…I'll get right on that...For a kid in a 60s Honolulu blues band I, of course, was utterly unqualified to be anywhere. Luckily the rest of the band was pretty good, and after all these years I'm still unqualified to be anywhere, but it works for me.

Inna is right. Nottingham Analogue may be a bit obscure, but it is considerably underpriced, whatever your budget. I have been a happy customer for 18 years.

A bit of an odd-ball question but I am intrigued. There are many good responses here first of all. I'm not a vinyl nut but do own a turntable and do listen to Zep. I never though of "tuning" my TT to a specific genre of music but it is interesting. I would guess the cartridge would be the player here and there are many options. My set up is a newer Denon fully auto TT (laziness) mated with a Denon MC cartridge. I'm happy with the sound. The idea I think is extract as much as you can from the grooves, then you'll get the groove.

A floating turntable filled with Helium.

Ha ha ha ... My old girard into a kenwood ka 7002 and a pair of ar3's right after seeing them at the filmore east sometime in the late 60's!

First - the quality of the vinyl is key. If you have re-mastered discs - great. If not - then any reasonable turntable will be fine. No need to spend $1000's that's for sure. As mentioned by others the Denon is fine, Linn Sondek LP12, some of the Regas, etc. 

My first decent playback rig was a KLH Model 20 compact system (the one without the tuner). Built-in Gerrard table with a Pickering cart festooned with a little record brush sticking over the end…cool…really good sounding speakers for that time.

Wolf, I almost got that system, went for a Benjamin all-in-one unit instead that I could bring with me to college.  I think if you want to hear these sorts of albums the way you remember them from the 60s you really ought to get one of the Sony/Technics/Girard tables from back then with a Shure or Stanton cartridge and AR or inexpensive JBL speakers.  I do agree, though, that any good turntable will play these albums fine, my Basis does.  Just might not sound the same as they did in the 60s, for a variety of reasons, some not necessarily audio-related.

This is one of the biggest myths in audio- that certain types of equipment might favor a certain kind of music. The fact is the equipment does not care and does not exercise any taste at all.

A good turntable will treat all kinds of music the same.

I agree, Ralph. 

At the end of the day, if you optimize (to the extent possible) for a particular genre of music, you will ultimately lose, and shut down your musical choices.  Today, you're into Led Zepplen, tomorrow, it might be Liszt. It's all about expanding your musical choice.

Having said that, and knowing that no audio product is perfect, the strengths and weaknesses of a particular design can either be masked or hyperbolized by different musical genres. 

Cheers,
Thom @ Galibier Design

Well, of course good table should be able to play anything reasonably well but still one could try to choose based on music preferences and preferred presentation. For example, I know that I will not be into opera, rap or even Zeppelin, though the latter is closer to my taste.
As for the Nottingham, it is very popular in Britain, I have no idea why it is, yes, somewhat obscure here. It is also very unintimidating table, a little on the warm dark and deep side.

There are surely components that "do" bass better than others, noise floor, or any other parameter you can dream of and you can certainly "optimize" around those parameters if you choose (note the quotes around optimize). 

Let's use the Zeppelin example.  Might there be two or more different attributes that two different individuals consider to be the essence of Zep - say for example one person considers John Paul Jones' bass playing to be the key while another might argue for Robert Plant's vocals or Jimmy Page's guitar?  They might prefer two different turntables based on this strategy.  How would I recommend a Zep optimized system to someone?

I think the safest path (even if you're limiting your musical genres) is to still audition a wide variety of music, including music you don't (think) you like.  Linn had a lot of propaganda back in the 80's that was just that, but one of their recommendations that I subscribe to is the above auditioning strategy.

Let's put it this way.  Have you ever been to a live performance where you heard a group, and only then did you consider buying recordings of their music?  What's that about, and why can't this be the case with your home system (that it introduces you to new music and new genres)?

I have a thought exercise I'd like you to run in the background as you select music to play.  How many times have you selected a recording (we're talking physical media), pulled it out of the shelf, and then pushed it back in?

What's that about? 

Surely there are times when you're plainly not in the mood, and you pulled the recording out only because it caught your attention when you were browsing. 

I would argue that for many systems, in a large percentage of the time, pushing the recording back in the shelf is because you triggered a memory of the recording not sounding that good. 

What percentage of your recordings don't "sound that good"?

Clearly, we all have clunkers in our collection, but I contend that we're unintentionally shutting down our musical appreciation by many of our equipment choices.

Cheers,
Thom @ Galibier

I agree with you bdp24.  I read Ralph's comments as more of a warning to listen to a variety of music when making an equipment decision.  Perhaps I misread that, but this has been my recommendation to people.

For a period of time, I was enamored of full range drivers.  They reproduced intimate music bluegrass, string quartet etc. nicely, but they fell flat on their face with massed choirs & large orchestral music.  Over time, I stopped listening to big, dense music, but I'm better now ;-)

This is where that thought exercise I proposed stemmed from.

Cheers,
Thom @ Galibier Design

Ralph's (Atmasphere) contention that components being music-sensitive is a myth is not one I can agree with. One example of that argument being mistaken is in the obvious case of the original Quad loudspeaker. I have and love the speaker, and listen to Bach through them, but would not dare play AC/DC at 110dB on them!

Quads do very well with AC/DC and Bach; in both cases they won't be playing at 110db! Quads also do well with all types of electronic music as well as jazz and blues- so long as you play the speaker within its dynamic range.

By this measure, the best speaker for anything ever is the one that can play that loudest. So maybe my Classic Audio Loudspeakers are the best for Bach, AC/DC, Led Zeppelin and solo flute. I've measured them in my room at 110 db (although I had to wear earplugs to do it).

Obviously that argument is flawed! To put this in perspective, we have a question about how are particular bit of the system can favor a certain rock band, which is nearly the same question as what speaker is best for a certain period of 80's pop music (that question is actually a thread somewhere on this site). At some point, you have to get that the equipment simply does as well as it does, and that won't favor a certain band or genre of music in any way at all.

Stereo equipment can't express taste! It can only deal with the media and signals put through it. Some say that a certain speaker plays bass in a certain way that is better, but if you look at the genre its supposed to favor, the recordings in that genre are all over the place in terms of how bass is presented in the recording. In fact that speaker playing bass in a certain way will favor all types of music that might have the bass recorded in a certain way. Its ***not*** favoring a genre!!

For some reason this myth continues to persist. The fact of the matter is that once you understand that it is indeed a myth and nothing more, the sooner you can start to build a better sounding system as you will avoid trying to introduce colorations into your system (and that will save you flushing dollars down the loo).

The flaw in the Music Specific Gear argument is simply not understanding music reproduction's basic facts, among these the "low level detail" content myths…if you think Zep and AC/DC recordings lack anything sonically relative to classical oboe concertos or harpsicords, you may not be paying attention. Also, if your hifi rig can do one, it can certainly do the other. (Harpsicords are somewhat monodynamic in output, like a bad Rock and Roll recording), but a case can be made (easily) that electric guitar tone details, acoustic drum and cymbal sounds, and vocal tone are all as rich in tonal content as the Philly, just different music. All speakers have their output limits and pretty much any home drivers (not including my Italian driver Guido who is outside polishing the Bentley as we speak) will pop instantly if given a micro second of concert level uncompressed sound, unlike pro speakers which can take the hit (generally). I use the same gear for live shows with the Baltimore Consort and electric version Julian Lage (with drums and bass), and it all works perfectly with either genre (and the mains weirdly also have Italian drivers). You can own a reticent little system in your home that can't handle harpsichords, and I can imagine that it doesn't handle Bon Scott either.

I might re-word the OP's question as follows:  "Which turntable/front end has weaknesses which are best masked when listening to music like that of Led Zeppelin?"

This is still flawed thinking IMHO, but it at least creates an awareness of the problem. 

I'm a firm believer that your hi-fi system should surprise you - especially by introducing you to musical genres you thought you'd never appreciate and in this sense, optimizing around a musical genre points you 180 degrees away from the target. 

Cheers,
Thom @ Galibier Design

In rock, and on some rock records, too much definition can be a distraction.

It is possible to 'tune' (or voice) a turntable to compliment one genre of music or another.  With sixties and seventies rock it might be advisable to select a cartridge and stylus profile that would not be too terribly revealing of guitar amp fuzz and distortion.(the intentional stuff).  Perhaps conical or, at most, an elliptical stylus profile would omit some of the definition of the distortion. We don't want to highlight guitar amp fuzz. Better to extract less of it while still reporting the overall content within the groove.  A cartridge/arm pairing known for producing gobs of bass energy and a muscular midrange.....and a little bit rolled off in the highs could be nice.  Try to imagine a certain 'warmth' within the higher frequencies.  That might help screaming, screaching guitar solos sound more stellar...and cleaner.  To some ears anyway.

Arm and cartridge are certainly key players.  For that matter the signal chain going into the phono stage.  If LOMC, then step up trannies play a role in determining part of the sonic character of the cartridge in use.  Tune for punchy and clean. A DL-103R sounds more aggressive with a 30:1 turns ratio than it does at 10:1..  We want aggressive for rock...and just about everything else for that cartridge. 

The motor unit itself.  (turntable less tonearm).  many possibilities.  But we want a TT that will not at all be affected by stylus drag as the highly modulated passages are read.  I'm thinking idler territory but also direct drive.  Belt drive...?  some belt drive turntables rock out better than others. Those least affected by stylus drag are the ones that will produce the visceral wollop, muscular drive and the drums that leap out of the speakers in front of you.

This is why I keep more than one turntable ready for work.  One in particular for rock.  It is more of a blunt instrument. A sledge hammer that over time has been voiced (by me) for groups like Led Zeppelin.  But the other turntable is more revealing, far more capable of extracting detail, micro and macro and retrieving the gentle nuances as well as the astounding feel it in yer guts wollop of the bass drum in Stravinsky's Firebird so much so that it resounds througout the listening room and is felt in the listener's bones.  The full range of what the symphonic orchestra can produce.  that is a player tuned to a sharper degree. We want that for classical. 

In rock,  and on some rock records in particular, too much definition can be a distraction..

m2c, ymmv, etc.
-Steve

Yeah…anybody who isn't clueless about actual music might have differing views. What nonsense…a clear weird bias against supposed "guitar amp fuzz" indicating a very limited understanding or appreciation of great Rock and Roll music renders the previous post hogwash. To have "Groups like Led Zeppelin" require a type of turntable with "less definition" implies somehow that tube guitar amps utilized in the studio by great payers, or recording technique like that from George Martin or Glynn Johns or many others with taste and skill somehow have less worthy fidelity. "Less affected by stylus drag"…man...

A lot of the rock recordings from the 1960s are really well recorded! The more resolution the better.

" Yeah…anybody who isn't clueless about actual music might have differing views. What nonsense…a clear weird bias against supposed "guitar amp fuzz" indicating a very limited understanding or appreciation of great Rock and Roll music renders the previous post hogwash. "

Getting excited are we?  Point was that a particular record player can be made to sound better playing back one musical genre over another.  Led Zep records are recorded fairly clean...if not perfectly.  Some of those albums sound like they were recorded in a 55 gallon drum. (LedZep II some masters more than others)  And the listener can decide whether it is preferable or not. 

Can any 'one' player reproduce a superior result in all  musical genre's ?  You'd expect it at some of the going rates.  Yet some players sound their best while reproducing music made with acoustic instruments and not a particular energetic rhythm component.  I can think of one or two expensive belt drivers that ended up being cast in that light.  But I won't mention those names.  Yes, it is possible to tune the player to the listener preferences. 

Reproducing rock music with a super energetic rhythm component, Santana for instance (1st album), does require a player that responds less to modulating stylus drag. than some of the other belt drivers out there.  A spinning platter with a higher moment of inertia at the rim is recipe for success here.  And it is clear that not all turntables are stellar in this one performance aspect.

Some phono cartridges sound a bit piercing in higher frequencies. And while playing rock loudly and the guitar solos are reaching for the moon it can over-cook the solo.  While other carts that have more warmth in the highs can reproduce the same solo to a more enjoyable effect.  And these are individual tastes as well as the difference between individual phono cartridges.

Yep, I stand by it.  Rock needs a slammy player that doesn't try to sort out the pepper from the fly-shit while playing through that groove.....and there are lots of record players out there that do not meet the definition of 'slammy'. 
Over here I set up different record players for different records.  One excels at rock, the other does Classical much nicer.

-Steve

If your table is set up properly, I think your cartridge would have more of an impact on timbre and tone control than other factors. So, maybe the OP should buy a tonearm with a removable head shell and mount it on his table. Then go out and buy a few cartridges to use as tone controls for his favorite rock group. That is logic I can understand......but setting up a whole table for one group is not wise.

God forbid if the group has a deep catalog and their albums were recording in different studio's using different engineers. Really, there is little to no continuity between albums with any group that put out more than three albums over a period of time. So, you be sheet out of luck trying that model, too. At least you can swap out cartridges and find one that sounds best with that specific album. 

In the end you might be just better off getting an EQ. They really make some nice digital ones these days that are not very expensive.

Can you imagine having a Beatles Turntable, a Rolling Stones Turntable, Kinks Table, Grateful Dead, James Taylor, Stevie Wonder, Miles Davis, Coletrain.........sheet, you'd might end up with 100 different tables.

Don't even get me going a different cables for different groups. 

 Point was that a particular record player can be made to sound better playing back one musical genre over another.

This is complete nonsense. Its like saying a turntable might be better at 80's down tempo rock but can't do Jimi Hendricks. Equipment does not exercise taste.

It is possible to tune MM cartridges to change their tonality. However the proper tuning which will then serve all genres is called 'critical damping'. This does not apply to LOMC cartridges.

If a turntable responds excessively to stylus drag its a problem for all genres of music, not just certain forms of rock.

Again, the idea that a turntable or cartridge (or other component) serves a certain genre of music better than some other is one of the biggest myths in audio.

" Again, the idea that a turntable or cartridge (or other component) serves a certain genre of music better than some other is one of the biggest myths in audio. "

It is entirely possible to optimize the TT for one genre over another.  Much of that is merely cartridge /tonearm selection.  Though the selected cartridge/tonearm may be entirely fine in all other genre's, it has been voiced by its owner for one particular genre.

With regard to the motor unit, all genre's will benefit from a platter spin that doesn't change its pace, however minutely, in response to modulated stylus drag.  But it will be more apparent when reproducing rock.

I maintain, different turntables for different records.

-Steve

I’ve professionally mixed, recorded, and performed electric and acoustic music for decades, and if anybody thinks acoustic instruments are less dynamic than electric ones, they’re unaware of the of the basics of music sound and reproduction. And that’s OK…comments like "over cook the solo" demonstrate a sincere but utterly naive perception of sound not actually existing in reality. Steve is almost charming in his somewhat innocent weird little world, and Atmasphere is 100% correct.

"I’ve professionally mixed, recorded, and performed electric and acoustic music for decades, and if anybody thinks acoustic instruments are less dynamic than electric ones, they’re unaware of the of the basics of music sound and reproduction. And that’s OK…comments like "over cook the solo" demonstrate a sincere but utterly naive perception of sound not actually existing in reality. Steve is almost charming in his somewhat innocent weird little world, and Atmasphere is 100% correct."

Dynamic?  Each acoustic instrument has a dynamic range.  Yes some will get rather loud.  Thinking of a Steinway grand piano.  I've been around live music and musicians myself.  Studied and performed.  Then got a day job.  but I know the sounds of instruments.... particularly acoustic ones.

But still, amplified rock and roll takes 'loud' to another level.  Amplified electric guitar vs acoustic guitar. The electric guitar produces a less complex mixture of tones and texture than does the acoustic guitar which has a sound box made of selected woods, rather thin and carefully seasoned, that affects the plucked string with woody under and overtones.  there is a complex texture of all the vibrating elements within.  Even the very air that carries the sound. 

  Some phono cartridges will describe the texture and tones of an acoustic instrument better than others.  But will the same cartridge that so deliciously described the wood inside the soundbox of that Martin guitar also lend itself toward getting that over-cooked Jimmy Page electric guitar solo rendered so that the listener perceives its reality?   

Well, maybe the recording engineer is responsible for that slightly 'over-cooked' guitar solo because it was mic'd a tad hot and he chose not to use as much compression as do the other engineers in the trade. 

Will that same cartridge deliver the muscular thrust, intensity and speed of the rock performance as it did reproducing a string quartet?  I'm saying there is always a compromise.  And different cartridges have their own sets of strengths and weakness'.  The cartridge designer, when he voices his particular cartridge, will favor one genre of music over another.  Some have, anyway.  Where is the sweet spot in your low output moving coil cartridge?  They all have one.

Amplified rock and roll.  It can have its subtleties, but mainly it works best when you've pressurized the room.  The energy of the reproduction should deliver a compulsion to the listener that will cause him/her to involuntarily move  feet, tap toes, bob head and generally be body and soul immersed into the groove of it.  Some turntables will deliver this compulsion better than others.  All you have to do is hear this to know it.  And you evidently have not heard this.  Though you think you do.

Will that same turntable that rocked out so nicely get the subtleties of the acoustic mix in that string quartet?....  Only your ears will tell you this much.

I get the impression you guys are listening with your intellects rather than your heart.  If you believe a thing from the outset, your mind will allow you to process all sensory input you receive in a manner that supports your preconceived notions.  This even extends to recording engineers.  And especially opinionated ones.

-Steve

Atma-Sphere is wrong, once again. But if he wants to convince some of us he should try and prove what he says.
Next thing he might say is that amp is an amp, and if it's good it's equally good for everything. Then he will move to speakers. And after that to guitars. Martin guitar would not be best for flamenco or the kind of music that John McLaughlin used to play. John himself said it, I am just repeating it.
There is a lot of art in designing good equipment, not only "stupid" science. But a lot of science too.