People need to be aware that the Sugden class A amps have higher output impedance /lower damping factor than most SS amps.They are medium for these traits wheraes most SS amps have low output impedance and high damping.So electrically they operate more like a push pull tube amp.To sound their best they need to be matched with speakers that do not dip too low in impedance-genuine 8 ohm speakers rather than 4 ohm.They are an especially good match with classic BBC and Tannoy speakers that tend to be higher impedance and which can sound overdamped by most SS amps.So when some people say they sound really good and others not so good that is probably just a reflection of speaker matching variables.Given the right speakers they can sound fantastic.
Oh I don't know, just the inventor of the first Class A circuit design. If it weren't for Sugden, it's more like WHO IS PASS?
Some of the folks in this thread or clearly dropping in to be post what they are fan-boys of which is fine assuming you know what the hell you are talking about. Not having heard Sugden, or looking at pictures to make judgements on how something sounds @georgehifiis ridiculous.
Can you really go so wrong with either one? I've owned several Sugden pieces, still have some. I like the way they sound for my ear. Period. Very quick with immediacy that is difficult to match or beat. Decent sound stage. Voices sparkle. No rumbling bottom end. But they are not the only game in town and 25wpc is just that, not enormous and if you need more well you need more.
Sugden gear always bothered me due to the lack of air and the slightly veiled sound they produce. A good friend of mine runs the Saphire pre & power combo with a pair of B&W 802Ds. Heard the A21 amplifier in different iterations as well. Never really liked their sound, for me it just sounds not natural. It’s like having the flaws of class A without the benefits…
@snapoli2Good for you.While I've never owned a INT-25, the lower wattage amp is nice too, and unless you like to turn it up loud, I'd prefer the lower watt integrated for regular listening levels most of the time anyhow. Yep, speaker pairing well, matters. I'm more of an all tube system kinda enthusiast any more, yet always enjoy reading about others who've been able to find a new path to enjoy solid state in a similar 3D way. That's really great!
@decooney So I initially said Sugden... And I think Sugden makes a wonderful machine. But curiosity got the best of me and I went and purchased an INT-25... It's sublime. It really is a fantastic listening experience at moderate listening levels. Im currently running it with a pair of CainTuck Betsy's - sounds very VERY 3D. And the human voice is just front and center. Guitar reverb is other-worldly. I had it hooked up to a pair of Heresy 4 and it was just as good - bass was a bit stronger. It's not cheap, neither is this hobby, in fact it's debilitating sometimes, but it's machines like the INT-25 that make it all worth it. But the caveat it does indeed need to be paired with sensitive speakers. And it does sound a bit strained when you REALLY crank it. But at moderate listening levels, Herb Reichert was bang on, I have never seen so fully into the recording. And the sibilance is just spectacular. K's and S's are perfect. Uncanny projection.
@snapoli2...I’ve owned both, multiple pieces. I like Pass Labs allot but ultimately preferred the Sugden iA4 Masterclass - which I did not think would be the case.
Nice. Trust your ears with your speakers as you found out first hand. What sounds best for you? Try it if you can swing it. I like that Sugden Masterclass series too, had an eye on them myself a while back.. Growing up twenty minutes from Pass/Coda a’philes around me, and many found later there can be other options too. Sugden is a very cool throwback style design and parts inside.
In this case however, I’d likely pick the manufacturer or service-dealer closer to me when considering dealing with repairs, bias tune-ups, shipping heavy amps...bouncing around inside of shipping trucks. Had a few buddies getting stuff damaged in shipping lately. Another consideration in the decision making process, fwiw.
I’ve owned both, multiple pieces. I like Pass Labs allot but ultimately preferred the Sugden iA4 Masterclass - which I did not think would be the case. It’s insanely good. Addictive. I’ve owned allot of gear and I think the Sugden is great gear with no compromises. I would recommend some good horn speakers, maybe even tannoy Cheviots (not horns but wow). I currently have it hooked up to a pair of JBL 4349’s and the soundstage is solid and 3-dimensional. Just insanely tangible. I got the Sugden iA4 as a holdover for a Line Magnetic 845-Premium (Stellar unit), I already have one at another house and liked it so much that I wanted one for my Chicago office. There’s a long wait so I got the Sugden, once again as a holdover... Well it didn’t take long for me to cancel the order for the LM 845-Premium, which is a MAGICAL piece, and decide that the Sugden was easily just as good. I wouldn’t say it bested the LM 845-Premium but I’d say it was equally as enjoyable. Pass is great... but both Sugden iA4 Masterclass and Line Magnetic 845-premium where better. Ive had Mcintosh mc462 with a c2700, Pass Labs INT-250, Primaluna evo 400 separates, Bel Canto, Luxman 590axII, AR GSi75, hegel, golden note... a decent amount of gear. In conclusion it is the Sugden iA4 and LM 845-Premium that are gonna stay.
I have tried out a Sugden A21SE and a Pass Labs INT-25. I kept the Pass Labs. The Sugden is nice, and the Pass is nice. I felt the Pass was a better product, though more expensive so it should be. For me, sounded better and was built with a true heirloom quality. The Pass Labs INT-25 makes all of my music sound wonderful, some of it magical. Probably the most pleasing and satisfying integrated I have owned (coming from 30 years of experience with ARC, Cary, Ayon, McIntosh, Devialet, Line Magnetic, Luxman, PS Audio, Vinnie Rossi and many others). With all of that said the Sugden also brings up a similar sound in Class A but the Pass does so with a bit more expansiveness and detail. Bass on the INT25 is remarkable.
I have the Sugden A21se and I love this amplifier, so much grunt it defies the power expectations of most, I’m using it with KEF R3’s and it’s a very nice pairing, the Sugden is just very musical and clean.
Before I went toward tubes, I looked hard at both but didn't audition. So I cannot give you the experience answer you're looking for. However, one audio dealer which a lot of people respect is Gig Harbor audio and they're very nice people who carry Sugden. If you called or wrote them to ask why they deal in Sugden, they might add some data to your inquiry. Yes, they're a dealer so they'll be biased toward what they carry, but sometimes these conversations yield nuggets. https://www.gigharboraudio.com/
As a former speaker manufacturer, I have listened to many, many amps and I have always liked the Sudgen sound. Clean, pure, sweet, natural. For that matter, I like Class A amps. The FPA4, discontinued in 2019, was based on the A21, so you have some very good DNA there. But is is not the same as the A21SE. The XA25 is unlike other Pass amps, so you need to hear it to appreciate what it is. It has its own sound and is close to a single ended tube sound. It is actually the one Pass amp that I like the best. Read Teajays's and the others review. I have 4 favorite ss amps and the XA25 is one, which I also own. It comes down to your ears and what is in the rest of your system. But there is something special and just right about the XA25. I hope you can find some way to compare them side by side.
I'm using a Sugden A25B on my Altec 620 and it's quite a good little amp. Musical and warm sounding but not the final word in definition and clarity... I didn't listen to the Sugden you mentionned but it's most certainly good... I've heard other Sugden products and they all sounded good... Is it as good as the Pass Lab ? I can't tell since I never had the chance to listen to one... Sugden products are not known in the US but many audiophiles are using it in Canada...
Looking at the parts only inside viewpoint, the Pass25 has got the nod over the Sugden.
Bigger trany More supply capacitance Multiple smaller PS caps for lower esr More heatsink fin area, which makes me question the Sugden’s amount of Class-A.
I heard a Sugden a few years ago driving a pair of Harbeths 30.1 and it was a match made in heaven. I have heard the Pass 30.8 but not the xa25. The 30.8 is tough to beat if you have the rack room, a strong back and need a large space heater. The Pass xa25 solves all the negatives I have listed with the .8 series and Teajay's review is more and favorible. Btw I am in the market for a low power amp and the xa25 and the Linear Tube Audio ZOTL40 are my top 2 choices.
I have heard amplifiers from Sugden on many occasions and just reviewed the XA25 for hometheaterreview.com.
The Sugden amplifiers are quite good in their performance and might compare rather favorably to Pass Labs XA.5 series of amplifiers. However, the XA25, which does not even use the same circuit design as the XA.8 series is on a much higher level of performance then the Sugden amplifier. For my tastes the XA25 replaced my XA-60.8 mono blocks in my reference system. I don't think the Sugden even is on the level of performance of the XA.8 series, therefore it's not even close in my opinion. For details on the XA25's performance take a look at my review.
kosst_amojan I have no doubt that PASS LAB has fantastic amplifiers. I understand your opinion, and thanks about it. My intention was to know the preference of the audiophiles who have listened Sugden and Pass.
You are welcome. Not sure what speakers you are using, but I heard the Sugden FBA 800 with the Wilson Benesch Vector speaker and it was a fantastic match. Also great with my ProAc Response D-40r
I have heard Pass and Sugden. A friend of mine owns both and prefers the Sugden, unless more power is required. I think they both sound very good, with the Sugden having a bit more clarity and the Pass more bass drive.
Looks like most comments here are from those who have looked pictures of the Sugden amps. Not a great way to determine how they sound IMHO.
Almost bought a Sugden power amp, but decided I needed more power and ended up with an Aesthetix Atlas to match my Calypso preamp.
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