Vandersteen Sub woofers v Rythmik Subs

Hi sonicjoy,

     Very good post with some good points.
    After over 40 yrs of building systems and listening to music in different homes and rooms, I definitely agree with you that every room is different, especially in bass response. 
    When installing a system,  I've recently come to the conclusion that it's best to view a sound reproduction system as 2 separate systems: a bass system and a mid-range treble/sound stage illusion system.  I think having a separate bass system as 4 subs can actually be more useful for achieving best integration and sound if you have the room space.
    The bass is the hardest to get right because the sound waves are so long that they continue to bounce/reflect off all room barriers until they run out of energy.  These sound waves eventually either crash into each other causing standing waves and typically a lack of bass at those points or they piggy-back on another reflected sound wave and cause bass reinforcement and typically exaggerated or boomy bass at these points.  
     Acoustic engineers are able to predict where sound waves will intersect based on the room dimensions, sound wave frequency, barrier material and speaker/sub location(s).
     The beauty of a properly set up distributed bass  array system of 4 or more subs is its ability to eliminate the vast majority of intersecting bass sound waves, and therefore the vast majority of bass peaks and nulls, in any given room.  This not only makes the bass sound more accurate and smoother, the bass response is this good throughout the majority of the room. 
     As you're all too aware, having a small and non-symmetrical  room only makes good bass response more difficult to attain.  I understand you have space and waf issues but I still believe a Swarm distributed bass array system is your best option for achieving state-of-the-art bass response in your room.  
      This system is not as intrusive as some may initially think.  Each sub weighs about 44 lbs., has a 1 sqft. footprint and is 28 inches tall.  Each sub is positioned with the driver facing, and about 1 inch away from, the wall.  The visible portions of each sub(sides, top and back) are made of your choice of high quality wood and actually look quite good and stylish.   Have your wife choose the wood.
      Hiding the speaker wires may be the most difficult issue if you can't run them below the floor or in the walls.

 Just my thoughts-good luck,
      Tim

I know that Richard V. recommends corner placement of the 2wq's and I have had one room that corner placement worked well in. However in my current listening room (and the previous one) the bass is not good in the corners. Every room is different and in my "particular" room there is way to much low frequency reinforcement from the corners. It over loads the room with energy. Again dealing with smaller  (and odd shaped non symmetrical) rooms is challenging. Adding to the challenge is limited placement options for multiple large boxes with wires that need to be routed somehow.  WAF comes into play here (again). The current location inboard of the 3a sig's is the best location that I have come up with so far and sounds quite good for the moment but I'm not done experimenting yet. Those new Sub 3's have my attention though. Will be keeping an eye on them.

It's all a balancing act for sure. In an ideal situation we would all have large rectangular symmetrical rooms with high ceilings, constructed of musically good sounding material (because all rooms and all material have a "sound") That would minimize the problems we encounter. We could even design room acoustic treatment into the room. Again in an ideal situation we would have  purpose designed rooms. But most of us have to live with what we have and make the best of it with our limited resources, including time. For me this is a journey and I am still heading down the road and having fun with it.
 Another thought is from a manufactures point of view. Trying to design speakers that work well in all the wide variety of rooms that their designs will be asked to sound good in must be a daunting challenge.

Have a great day!

Hi audioconnection,

     I'm a bit confused by your last post.  You state: " What you guys need to consider is the thinking outside the box.
The Sub 3 nips your particular room overload in the bud with 11 band analog room compensation No DSP processers here.
 With its unique high pass or reliving the heavy lifting of your main amp allows your whole system to improve its articulation, dramatically improving transparency and clarity.". 
     From your description, the new Sub 3 seems like a very nice powered sub  that is a worthy replacement for the now discontinued  2Qw sub. However, I'm failing to grasp why you consider the use of the new Sub 3 as an example of 'thinking outside the box'.since it seems to be a very capable sub that nevertheless would likely be classified by most knowledgeable reviewers as a conventional sub. 
      I would think you would consider, as I do, that the use of a distributed bass array system like the Swarm is a more suitable example of 'thinking outside the box' than the seemingly much more conventional Vandersteen Sub 3. 
     Could you please clarify your statement about 'thinking outside the box' and specifically to which members your comment was directed toward?

Thanks,
  Tim

Looks just like 2wq. with more power and a new eq. Can't wait for some reviews. Thanks for posting that.

Noble100 (Tim), indeed I also have Floyd Toole's Sound Reproduction and keep coming back to it for his research with multiple subs. A piece of work with learnings that take time to sink in - at least for me. 

I also agree there are multiple ways to get low bass right and we are probably overloading the OP with info about multiple subs when he's considering 1 or 2. For such a case I would seriously look into a DSPeaker unit to complement the sub/s, and go with 2 subs if budget allows, but still one well integrated sub is generally better than no sub (of course depends on the speakers at play, the sub, the patience, the willingness to learn, etc).

Hi enginedr1960,

     I'm glad you responded on this thread.  And thanks for reminding me that you're the other user on this forum, that I couldn't recall the user ID of, who also uses a distributed bass array system with 4 subs.Your bass system details, experiences and opinions are all valuable contributions to this discussion.

     Your custom distributed bass array system, using the DSPeaker antimode 2.0  to electronically control crossover and room correction, is a bit more complex and sophisticated than my all in one Swarm system that utilizes the sub amp's built in crossover (with my panel mains running full frequency) and precise sub positioning instead of any DSP or room correction.

     I think it's important that readers of this thread realize that very good in room bass response is attainable using either method.  Having no experience using the DSPeaker or room correction of any kind, I know I'm not qualified to declare that either method is superior.  It seems like we both have achieved excellent perceived bass responses in our individual rooms using different methods, with the only common denominator being 4 subs.  

Hi lewnskiH01,

      It's very appropriate that you mentioned Earl Gettes and his advocacy of multiple subs for achieving very good in room bass response in virtually any room.  His research and published white papers on the subject, along with the research and results of Floyd O'Toole and Todd Welti, formed the basis of my understanding and the actual performance potential of deploying multiple subs in a specific positioning method to achieve optimum bass response in any given room.  All of this supporting scientific research was crucial in my decision to buy and use the Swarm bass system in my home music and ht system. 

     However, I have the impression that the OP of this thread, bstatman, may prefer to use a more standard approach to attaining better bass response in his system such as 1 or 2 Vandersteen or Rhythmic subs.  
     If this is the case, I'd just like to say to him that I know it's still possible to achieve good bass response utilizing 1 or 2 conventional subs in his room provided he's satisfied with the good bass response being constrained to a single 'sweet spot'.  I'm certain of this because I've achieved good bass response at a specific listening position using both 1 and 2 good subs in my own and friends' systems.  

     Again, I would caution to use the positioning method I described in my second post on this thread:

1. Hookup your sub and place it at your desired listening position.
2. Play music that has good and repetitive bass.
3. Walk around your room in a systematic manner listening for an exact spot where the bass sounds the best to you.
4. Once this spot is located, reposition your sub to this exact spot.
5. To test results, sit at your designated listening position and repay the same music.
     As you would expect, bass response will be improved as additional subs are added to the room. 2 subs, properly positioned, will give better results than 1.

     In my experience, the Swarm 4 sub distributed bass array system will definitely perform better than either a 1 or 2 sub system. I perceived the 4 smaller sub Swarm system as sounding more accurate, natural, effortless and life-like for music while providing more weight, authority, impact and a bottomless quality to the bass on both music and ht.  These great bass qualities are also now perceived at all 6 seating positions in my room, not just at my single preferred listening 'sweet spot'.

      In retrospect, I believe the Swarm system has been the most significant and unmistakable upgrade I've ever made in my system.  I'll conclude my excessive praise of the distributed array concept and Swarm product by just sincerely claiming I don't think I can overstate how well they both perform.

Tim


      

Richard Vandersteen recommends corner placement for 2Wq sub.

@mr_m - yup.  That seems to support my recollection that the 2Wq was designed to sit in a corner.  It's actually not that surprising at all.

I also placed my 2Wq in the corner. No boominess to the sound. I actually tried to set the sub a bit more up front near the main speakers. Surprisingly the bass got more boomy and ill defined. Back to the corner it went.

@sonicjoy - IIRC, RV designed the 2Wq to sit in the corner.  That's where I placed them, and I have never had any boominess from them.  Boy I miss what I had going on until last September! 

What you guys need to consider is the thinking outside the box.
The Sub 3 nips your particular room overload in the bud with 11 band analog room compensation No DSP processers here.
 With its unique high pass or reliving the heavy lifting of your main amp allows your whole system to improve its articulation, dramatically improving transparency and clarity. 

"Vandersteen Powered Bass with Room EQ Just Got Affordable!
The SUB THREE approaches ... the 2Wq is now Discontinued
The venerable 2Wq, in continuous production since the 1980s and arguably the most popular high-end subwoofer of all time, is finally giving way. The 2Wq is now officially discontinued, and it's time to get ready to meet its amazing new replacement, the SUB THREE. The SUB THREE will be available to customers in June of 2018 and is available for dealer order NOW. SRP is $2,490 each. There are a LOT of 2W and 2wq owners who are going to want to hear all about this tremendous new upgrade opportunity!The SUB THREE employs Vandersteen's signature powered-bass technique, which places a passive high-pass filter at the input of the main amplifier. This method makes the SUB THREE a great addition to speaker systems of any brand, compact or floor standing, and is crucial to achieving the "unbeatable powered bass" performance fans and reviewers alike have lauded in Vandersteen's powered-bass systems for decades. "High-passing" the main amplifier is the only way to get flat frequency response at the crossover point between the main speakers and the powered subwoofer, and also improves midrange and treble performance dramatically. When the main amplifier is relieved of deep bass duty, intermodulation distortion is reduced and the midrange and treble take flight and float freely in the room. This is the most musically righteous way of integrating a subwoofer into a speaker system, period.The SUB THREE also incorporates one of Vandersteen's most innovative and enduring technologies- 11-band room EQ for perfect bass in virtually any room. This technology originated with Vandersteen's Model 5, and today is employed in the flagship Model Seven Mk II ($62k/pr.) and reference SUB NINE powered subwoofers ($18,900/pr.). Over time this crucial technology has been employed in Vandersteen's Model 5A and Model 5A Carbon ($31,300/pr.), but prior to the SUB THREE the least expensive path to Vandersteen room EQ was the Quatro Wood CT at $14,600/pr. Vandersteen's legendary powered-bass with room EQ is now more accessible than ever!

SUB THREE Specs
325-watt Bridged Power Amp with Regulated Switching Power Supply11-Band Room EQ for Perfect Bass in Virtually Any Room
3 x 8” Cast-Aluminum Basket Cellulose-Fiber Woofer Cones with Ultra Long-Throw Motor Assembly Price: $2490 ea.About Vandersteen AudioVandersteen Audio designs and manufactures time- and phase-correct loudspeakers and superb electronics. Every Vandersteen loudspeaker is designed to be as true and accurate to the signal received from the amplifier as possible, but with unsurpassed natural musicality and “Dimensional Purity.” All Vandersteen products are proudly designed and manufactured in the USA, in Hanford, CA.
Contact: Audio Connection 615 Bloomfield AveVerona NJ 07044 973239 1799www.audioconnect.com
JohnnyR"

Absolutely right! Low bass is the hardest and most important thing to get right. Especially in smaller rooms with dimensions less than the wavelength of the lower frequency's. Until you solve the room issues in the low bass it will be very hard to get the rest of the spectrum to sound good. Standing waves will muddy up the mids and highs. I am still working on that myself as I have just moved and in a new room with (interesting) new issues.  

Some subs have controls to allow for phase correction. My Rel had some adjustability in this regard, and the Rythmiks offers plenty. Of course one needs to be able to measure and adjust and have plenty of patience to get right, but well worth it in my opinion.

Audio always entails tradeoffs. The best speaker design also includes tradeoffs. The trick is to wisely pick which tradeoffs are ok to let go. In my experience the sonic signature of a connector is orders of magnitude less important than getting room acoustics right, and getting sub 80Hz right is key to good room acoustics.

Interesting ......RV might be the only designer who cares about phase....

the 11 EQ frequency were picked for probable room nodes, not 1/3 octave or every 10 HZ

for those with M5-HP: the 7 filters while not inexpensive do offer an upgrade path

yes in theory a DIP switch has a sonic thumbprint, the M7 amplifiers eliminates that and a host of other issues, I can attest, the combo is sublime....

I have used the 2W quite successfully to fill in what smaller monitor main speakers lack in the low bass - still own one, though not currently in any of my systems.

I don't need a sub for my main system (20Hz capability) but nonetheless added a couple of Hsu VTF-15H Mk 2 to that system for bass reinforcement in video use ad I have been impressed with them for both clean bass and adjustability.

I've thought about putting the 2W in the Martin Logan CLS system, but it is a challenging thing to get a sub that augments an electrostatic panel and is fast enough to match them.  One of these days.....

The sub farm is an interesting concept, but I suspect phase coherence may leave a lot to be desired.

Phase coherence will determine the quality of the bass. The farm concept will definitely smooth out the level or quantity, but at the expense of phase or quality. DSP would be mandatory.

Vandersteen makes excellent products, but some of the sub parameter choices seem odd.

First rolling the bass off before sending to the sub requires additional EQ in the sub and EQ means more phase shift.

Since there is no phase control, physical positioning is critical. IMO, both a phase control AND a phase invert are mandatory.

The XO is limited in frequency selection and will have a rather large range. eg, a 55k input will xo @ 132Hz and a 100k input will xo @ 73Hz, almost an octave! IMO, step size should be about 10Hz for subs.

A bunch of dip switches in the circuit are a very bad idea. NO connector is inaudible.

It appears the filters are 1st order which sum in theory, but may not so well in practice.

For a saga on sub integration see http://www.ielogical.com/Audio/SubTerrBlues.php/ and http://www.ielogical.com/Audio/#SmallestThings for my passive XO design. C = 1 / ( 2 * π * f * R )

The Audiokinesis Swarm review by The Absolute Sound refers to Geddes.  Earl Geddes published his approach:  https://mehlau.net/audio/multisub_geddes/

For the brief time I had the Rythmik and Rel together I tried his approach and got close to what he described. He calls for summing up sub frequencies and all subs playing the same mono signal, and also some location guidelines and says 3 subs should suffice. My listening area is in my living room so aesthetics are an important consideration and Geddes location guidelines didn't fit into the aesthetics (in my room). Since I can't maximize the potential from 3 subs in mono I'm hoping 4 subs in stereo will be enough to achieve similar results. Worst case I could go to 6 subs! 😨

BTW, note Geddes says he needs little output from the third sub. So a much smaller sub would work, making it easier to conceal in the decor.

Another implication of Geddes approach: if you allow you main speakers and subs to play the low bass in parallel you effectively have 2 additional sources of bass (the main speakers) so it would help achieve those goals. Whether your system sounds better like this vs relieving the mains and amp from reproducing low bass is for each to decide.

Cheers!

bondmanp- Yes no filter in the signal path would be ideal but as you say the M5hp is very transparent. So much that I can not tell the difference. All I know is that the whole system sounds much better with the subs and filters than without. In fact I just tried a comparison with and without a week ago and its a dramatic improvment in the upper bass and midrange clarity. It removed a bit of boxiness in the 3a sig's upper bass. I can certainly live with the filters in place.
 Also I really like the adjustable q on the subs. It really helps with taming the room response. I also position the subs next to the mains well away from the walls and corners. I have found that I don't like subs in corners. It just makes them boomy.  I feel I get better time blending with mains as well with the subs in or even forward of the plane of the loudspeakers. These speakers and subs are time and phase correct top to bottom. Makes for great imaging. Very holographic.

lewinskih01- Funny you should mention elevating the subs as I have just begun experimenting with that concept. Trying to come up with something put under them. Tried milk crates about 10 inches high. Did seem to slighly reduce a bit of boominess in my room. I do want to keep trying different positions. I will also try raising just one.

Would be interesting to try the swarm idea with the Vandersteen subs and crossover implementation. All the subs would maintain the sonic signature of the main amp that way.

I guess I'm on my way to a distributed bass system.

I started with a single REL Storm sub and really enjoyed it.
Later I built two very heavy cabs for a couple Rythmik 12" kits connected at speaker level and it was a significant improvement over the Rel. I experimented several locations and setups also using measurent help and ended using them in stereo taking line in from my pre. While the xo wasn't 100% transparent it relieved my tube amp and speakers from attempting to reproduce up to 80Hz which was worth the tradeoff. This was another significant step up in sound.

Later I experimented with a multiway DAC and created digital xo to drive the subs and main amp directly from the DAC. Now my system is fully active with digital linear phase xo and room correction. No going back!

And I'm considering adding a couple additional Rythmiks. Rythmik kits allow for custom cabinets that make it easier to disguise or integrate into the decor.

FWIW, in his approach Geddes recommends one of the subs to be elevated from the floor so not all subs are exciting vertical modes from the same position (the floor). For this either a small sub or a custom installation is ideal (no way to raise my 50kg subs 2 meters off the floor!!).

Glad to see this approach discussed here.

bondmanp . The sub signal  from the amps is attenuated by a Axiom audio passive pre amp then the signal is sent to the DSPeaker the DSP is driving the sub amps . I rum my subs in stereo . The only ADA conversion happens below 50 hz the rest of my signal is all analog . if you are in Manhattan and want to hear the system PM me .

@sonicjoy - Yup, that was kind of a given as far as I was concerned.  Note only is it helpful for the main speakers, but lowers the burden on the amplifiers significantly.  All good reasons for a HPF for the mains.  That alone might steer me away from REL and Rythmic and towards Vandersteen.  That said, no crossover is 100% transparent.  The M5-HP is very good, but not as good as no crossover at all.  You have to way the pros and cons of adding another dividing network to your system.  For me, it is more than worth it for the incredible bass the 2Wqs put out.

One thing I have not seen mentioned yet is that the Vandersteen 2wq/M5hp system actually improves the sound of the main speakers by relieving them of the job of producing deep bass. The rest of the spectrum is cleaner sounding. It really makes a big difference. I run the Vandersteen 3a signature's with two (stereo) 2wq's and it is a very satisfying full range experience. 

@enginedr1960 - So, if I read your last post correctly, you compensate for roll-off below 50Hz with the passive pre? Does it have enough gain for this purpose? I guess that is possible if it is a transformer based volume control, but I thought passive volune controls were mostly attenuators. Or, perhaps the DSPeaker is where you get your subwoofer signal gain from? Please ’splain it to me.

I am the other distributed bass user that Noble mentioned . I use 4 REL Q201e subs in my room . The front subs are under the main speakers a set of Ohm Walsh 2.2000 sat. I use a high pass cap in my tube mono blocks to pass 50 hz and up . I take the sub signal from the amps and send them to a passive volume control to set the gain structure to my DSPeaker antimode 2.0. From the DSP witch functions as a crossover and room correction device  the DSP has 4 outs 2 XLR and 2 single ended . the front subs run passive and use a crown XLS 2502 amp  .The rear subs use the internal plate amps set to LFE witch bypasses the subs crossover network . With this setup I have full control of the bass volume and crossover through the DSPeaker while  using the high level signal .     

With the Vandersteen method the high pass filter goes between the preamp and amp so the signal from the speaker terminals is already filtered.  Whether you run the Rythmik's from the preamp's outputs or the speaker terminals the signal is passing to the mains full range and you use the crossover in the subs to limit the signal it sees.  You can buy aftermarket in-line filters to mimic the Vandersteen effect if you choose. Harrison Labs FMOD's are the most common.  Never tried it that way so can't tell you how it would sound.  In both of my systems I am running the mains full range and crossing in the Rythmik subs at the bottom limits of their frequency range.  

I guess I am confused about the differences in the way you configure the Rythmik via the speaker binding posts compared with the way the Vandy does it. I know you have to put in an analog high pass filter between the amp and the preamp in order for the bass to be correct once it gets to the vandy. Can you do this with the Rythmiks, as well? Or do you just send the full signal in? if you do send the full signal in is it proceeded digitally in the on-board amp? I guess I am still fuzzy on the filtering/signal processing options and what the pluses and minus’s are for the different types.

I have tried it both ways and in the end I prefer the speaker level inputs like I was used to with the Vandersteens but in the end it is what you prefer.  

I happen to own them both and neither one obliterates the other. They are different paths to the same goal.

How do you implement the Rythmik sub? Do you use the line level in from the preamp/receiver subwoofer output?

I happen to own them both and neither one obliterates the other.  They are different paths to the same goal. 

@invictus005 - I am not disputing what you say, but I am curious as to how you arrived at your conclusion.  I love my 2Wqs, but the Rythmik clearly has some fans here.  Have you compared the two?

Vandersteen sub will annihilate anything from Rythmik. It's musical and tuneful and integrates well with many speakers and rooms. It's as good as the best out there. It's not even fair to compare the two.

KLH 17 is a very good speaker !

Vandersteen has a five year warranty on their speakers and subs as long as you send in the special warranty card within the allotted time after purchase.

Rythmik Audio warranty:
5 years warranty on driver and 2 (or is it 3?) years on electronics.
30 day satisfaction guarantee.
Customers pay for returns.

Rythmik Audio dealer(s):
As far as I can tell, only 1
ASCEND ACOUSTICS, INC.
1062 Calle Negocio Suite G
San Clemente, CA 92673

Vandersteen warranty:
1 year warranty, however Vandersteen subwoofers are known to last for decades without any problems.
For returns see below.

Vandersteen dealers:
Are all over the US

I have no doubt that the AudioKinesis Swarm Subwoofer System sounds just as glorious as Tim describes, but for me and just me I don’t have the realestate (Tim you lucky guy!) nor do I like speakers with sharp edges as my bare feet, toes, shins, calves and when I may have little ones over, somehow are drawn to sharp edges like a magnet!

I stand corrected - as far as having dealers or 1 place for manufacturing the subs for also being the place to send for repairs, Vandersteen has dealers spread out over the US. Hence you can throw your subs in your vehicle and drive to the dealer for any repair work and save a heck of a lot of shipping cost and worry from shipping! You also can audition those SUB THREE subs before purchasing too! To me, Vandersteen wins again, hands down.

@bondmanp ,
What is wrong with your system?
bob

Take some Bjork tracks, crank the volume up, and sit there with a silly grin on your face as the bass pressurizes the room (this is with a pair of 2Wqs, btw).

When I crank just my 2C's I already get the silly grin. I imagine if I hooked up a pair of 2wqs, the grin might turn into a permanent deformity :0

@tyray - When my system was working properly (until last September), I would often crank it. Having a basement Man Cave and a solid old house means I can crank it whenever I want. The 2Wqs work the way a good sub should - they are invisible, and unintrusive, just making it seem like your mains are putting out gobs of deep, clean bass when there is bass in the music. Take some Bjork tracks, crank the volume up, and sit there with a silly grin on your face as the bass pressurizes the room (this is with a pair of 2Wqs, btw). Yes, you will have to batten down anything that can rattle in your room, as light fixtures and other small items will vibrate when there are loud bass notes in the signal. Even with all that output, they never muddy up the upper bass, mid or treble. To me, the 2Wqs are the Goldilocks of subwoofers under $2K apiece. That’s why I am trying so desperately to get everything working again rather than scrapping the 2Wqs for more conventional subs.

Hi again good folks here, can you all expand on the type of headroom the Vandy’s have? How do they sound when everyone is away, you’re the only one there in the house and you really crank them up playing the best recorded music stuff you have? I was very intrigued after chatting with you folks here and checking out the Vandy website...Thanks

gdnrbob stated:
" The Audiokinesis swarm makes sense, but then if you could put 4 or more subs of any brand in your room, you would probably get the same result. The whole idea is to balance room aberrations."

Hi Bob,

Correct, a distributed bass array system can be constructed using virtually any 4 subs. The concept is based on the proven theory that multiple generation points of bass sound waves (subs) in any given room significantly reduces the number of bass standing waves existing in the room. This results in more accurate and smoother bass response throughout the majority of the entire room with fewer points in the room that have peaks (exaggerated bass) and nulls (lack of bass).
It’s a choice the user must make: do they want to go all out using 4 of the best subs or a more reasonably priced set of 4 very good but smaller subs that are specifically designed for use in a distributed bass array configuration.
I’ve never heard an ultimate array system using 4 large hi-end subs but would certainly like to.
      After using the Swarm system for the past 2 years, I tend to doubt an ultimate bass array system would sound more accurate, natural or life-like but I do believe it would likely produce more bass. I know I don’t desire more bass either for music or ht in my current system.

Tim

My main speakers are in front and to the sides of a gas fireplace that protrudes nearly 2 feet into the room (Klipsch Heresy III horn speakers so the fireplace has zero effect on the tone, and they’re 7 feet apart). The corner made by the fireplace behind the left one has the smaller REL Q108II downward firing sub. That little corner is GREAT for that sub...a fake plant sits on top of it (I care). The larger sub is to the right near a corner, but I have vinyl "spikes" and long enough cables on it that I can move it around...put it in the window for outdoor subbing, move it closer to my listening spot, more toward the corner...this works as all recordings are a little different and the possibility of tripping over it exists. However, having the 2 subs on the same page (not in stereo) makes for great sound in my room, which is maybe 20X30 feet with a very tall sloped ceiling.

“RV is hard on the wallet”...

omg that is funny, I will let the frugal Dutchman know....

funny ( pucker story ) when our 7’s were being delivered the truck driver had to surf the pallet jack with brake down a short but steep section of the street. As we looked down the hill, the driver asked me “ new speakers, huh ? Expensive? I said all the stuff on that single pallet is about a new Corvette... driver grinned and said He$$ yes I can do it !!!!
they arrived safely

have fun

Hi Tim,
I have a vintage $30 Scott AM FM Stereo 355R receiver and a $50 KLH Model 17 pair of speakers that I purchased at the ’antique shop’ years ago that has been sitting in my ’Hi-Fi storage closet’ that I had planned to restore but never got around to. They were to be for my garage setup. You know, so I can get rid of the ole ’boom box’ I use when working on projects out there. When I saw the SVS PB12 Plus/2 sub for sale on ebay I had a ’flashback’ of the time I had owned one before and sold it and wished I hadn’t after the fact later. Not to mention it had the rare dual down firing 12.3 woofers too! Yep, it was a pure impulse buy, but I knew it would work with my Scott receiver. So there won’t be any ’sub crawling’ going on in the garage. I’ll put it in a corner and fine tune it there.

@bstatmeister, On my main rig I have dual Power Sound Audio (vented) V1801’s. I ended up buying them because they:

1) Were used and at a good price for the both which came to a total of $300 off the list price, if new.
2) I got the full as if new 5 year warranty.
3) Free shipping.
4) 60 day trial period with shipping paid by PSA upon return in the 60 day time frame.
5) American made which I’ve found is much easier to deal with if something goes wrong with your sub (or any other audio item) you can ship it directly back to the manufacturer where the only thing they do is build subs for PSA, instead of sending it to a dealer cause Rythmik (or any other sub manufacturer) subs are built in China, and you hope and pray that ’Johnny tech’ has the requisite experience and parts to work on your Rythmik sub.
6) PSA has a trade in and trade up policy which helps PSA in keeping your business.
7) Customer service is second to none.
8) PSA has a ton of information and free software on how to fine tune a sub and sub placement on their AVS Forum for PSA subs.

I don’t know of any other sub manufacturer that has such generous purchasing and warranty policies.

I did some digging into the Vandersteen subs and I seems they are built to last a long long time! Which is very rare indeed and also are American made. I think you’ve made the right decision. Check and see ALL of what policies RV has, you will never know until you ask. Also ask if there is a history of certain times of the year RV may have sales on his subs. You might get a good price on that Sub Three you want after all, especially if you want to buy 2.

I hope this helps.

tyray

"Wow, thanks Tim, I had no idea a product like this was out there and at a comparatively low price to boot. Here are the things I would worry about: the WAF (yep the WAF strikes again for this one)
Integration with the mains - Does it do it the way the Vandersteens do with an external cross-over that lowers the output 6db? Also the Vandersteens keep the signal in the analog realm. Is my understanding of the AudioKenesis that a DSP would be involved to manage the bass? If so, I think that would turn me off. I want that signal as analog as possible.

Hi bstatmeister,

1. WAF- I think the waf, along with concerns about fitting 4 subs physically in their room, are the biggest obstacles most people think of when considering using a distributed bass array system.
I can just describe my experiences with my use of the Swarm and hope it helps you a bit.
I am fortunate in having an understanding wife who also enjoys listening to music and ht through my system. If your wife is less understanding, I’d suggest trying to get her involved with discussing your system and let her make some choices about the music you listen to and the ht you play.
The optimum position of my 4 subs in my 23 x16 foot living room turned out better than I expected, too. Two of my subs are located along my room’s front 16 ft. wall, each about a foot in from each 23 ft. side wall. Each sub is also mostly hidden from view by my l+r main speakers (6 ft. tall by 2 ft. wide Magnepan panels) that are positioned about 3 ft. in front of them.
My other two subs are located along each 23 ft. side wall about 3 ft. in from the 16 ft. rear wall, one on each side. One sub is mostly hidden from view behind an end table while the other is out in the open but my wife likes how it looks like a wooden art gallery pedestal and she usually has a vase full of fresh flowers on it.
2. Mains integration and DSP- The Swarm’s supplied 1K watt class AB amp only accepts l+r unbalanced rca signal inputs and cannot accept speaker level inputs as the Vandersteens can. I don’t view this as a negative, however, since the analog rca inputs result in a seamless integration with my main speakers
There is also no DSP, microphones, room analysis software or digital equalization involved with the Swarm bass system. The signal remains in the analog domain from input to output. But each sub does have its output lowered by 6db by design.

Hoped this helped a bit,
Tim

The Audiokinesis swarm makes sense, but then if you could put 4 or more subs of any brand in your room, you would probably get the same result. The whole idea is to balance room aberrations.
As I posted in other threads, the new Vandy sub is probably going to make the 2wq prices drop. So, you might be able to pick up a pair with less impact on your wallet.
FWIW, I still own a pair of 2w subs. They function as they should and that despite being more than 20 years old. I asked Johnny Rutan if I should send them in for a checkup. He said if they work, don't worry.
Mr. V. really builds his speakers to last.
Bob

Richard Vandersteen agrees "the more subs the merrier.....however, if only one....I'd Vandersteen it. 

Yeah, I figured I'd probably need to RV it to get what I want (and I also have the 2C's so would be a great match all the way around) I just thought I would put the feelers out in case there were any other musical subs that could get me the same type of sound/integration without having to spend so much. RV is hard on my wallet!

Richard Vandersteen agrees "the more subs the merrier.....however, if only one....I'd Vandersteen it.

Dr Tim
love the brain salad surgery!

Hi tyray,

     Sorry about detonating your gray matter, I hope it wasn't too painful.  I think, if you just stuff the blown out bits back in your cranium, you should be fine.
     Good bass response is harder to attain in most rooms than good mid-range and treble response.mainly because bass sound waves are extremely long (with deep bass sound waves often being longer than any dimension in your room) while mid-range and treble sound waves are much shorter and more directional.  
     Good mid-range and treble response can usually be attained at a specified listening position by properly positioning your main l+r main speakers and utilizing wall treatments at the first reflection points.  
     In my experience, a distributed bass array system is definitely the best method for optimizing bass response in a given room.  Butt I believe it's still possible for you to get good bass response results in your room by using your single SVS sub as long as you only want to optimize the bass response at a single listening position.
     This can be done using the following method:
1. Hookup your sub and place it at your desired listening position.
2. Play music that has good and repetitive bass.
3. Walk around your room in a systematic manner listening for an exact spot where the bass sounds the best to you.
4. Once this spot is located, reposition your sub to this exact spot.
5. To test results, sit at your designated listening position and repay the same music.
     As you would expect, bass response will be improved as additional subs are added to the room. Of course, there's a practical limit to the acceptable number of subs in a room.  Scientific experiments have consistently proven that  measured in-room bass response only improves marginally beyond the use of 4 subs in a room. 
     This is the reason the Audio Kinesis Swarm system consists of 4 subs.  You could start with your single SVS sub and add subs if you felt the need. I'd suggest following the positioning method I described above for each sub added.

Good luck,
 Tim