AFAIK, nobody integrates subs the way Vandersteen does it. Even the REL, which takes a speaker-level feed from the amp, doesn't offer a HP filter for the mains. Every other sub I am aware of, if they offer speaker level inputs, it is to run the entire signal through the crossover within the sub's plate amp. And the quality of those crossovers can vary widely. That's why most prefer to use line level connections for the subwoofer and do the HP filter elsewhere (preamp/processor, external crossover, etc.). Vandersteen is the only sub that takes the signal from the main amplifier without taking any power from it, and leaves the HP filtered signal alone once it is run through the Vandersteen resistor or M5-HP crossovers.
Vandersteen Sub woofers v Rythmik Subs
I really love the idea of the Vandersteen Subs where they are connected with the mains via extra speaker cable off right and left channels off the main amplifier, which is supposed to provide better bass transition from the mains while keeping the signature from the main amplifier. My question is with Vandersteen coming out with the SUB THREE and the price going significantly higher, I was wondering if there are other subs for less that you could integrate in the same way. (Most subs seem to rely on the line level input which is just a sub-woofer RCA going from the pre-amp to the amp on the sub). Can this same Vandersteen set-up be achieved with other subs?
I picked Rythmik since they are known (in the home theater community anyway) for being one of the best bang for the buck subs and the most "musical" of the bunch. (between Hsu, SVS, PSA).
And could I possibly achieve even greater sub-woofer nirvana since I could get an 18" for around $1500? Vandies only have 3 eight inchers.
I am a Vandersteen fanboy and I would like to support RV whenever I can, but don’t know much about my other sub-woofer options so looking for some feedback. Doesn’t even have to be related to Rythmik necessarily. If you know of other subs that can integrate the same way I want to know about it!
Thanks
I picked Rythmik since they are known (in the home theater community anyway) for being one of the best bang for the buck subs and the most "musical" of the bunch. (between Hsu, SVS, PSA).
And could I possibly achieve even greater sub-woofer nirvana since I could get an 18" for around $1500? Vandies only have 3 eight inchers.
I am a Vandersteen fanboy and I would like to support RV whenever I can, but don’t know much about my other sub-woofer options so looking for some feedback. Doesn’t even have to be related to Rythmik necessarily. If you know of other subs that can integrate the same way I want to know about it!
Thanks
Showing 19 responses by bondmanp
@tyray - When my system was working properly (until last September), I would often crank it. Having a basement Man Cave and a solid old house means I can crank it whenever I want. The 2Wqs work the way a good sub should - they are invisible, and unintrusive, just making it seem like your mains are putting out gobs of deep, clean bass when there is bass in the music. Take some Bjork tracks, crank the volume up, and sit there with a silly grin on your face as the bass pressurizes the room (this is with a pair of 2Wqs, btw). Yes, you will have to batten down anything that can rattle in your room, as light fixtures and other small items will vibrate when there are loud bass notes in the signal. Even with all that output, they never muddy up the upper bass, mid or treble. To me, the 2Wqs are the Goldilocks of subwoofers under $2K apiece. That’s why I am trying so desperately to get everything working again rather than scrapping the 2Wqs for more conventional subs. |
@gdnrbob - https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/vandersteen-2wq-subwoofers-with-m5-hp-crossovers-help-needed I think you posted on that thread, btw. I am still working on resolving this. I suspect the amp is the problem, but I am far from certain. The new amp internals are surely burned in by now, and I am less than thrilled with it when run full range into my Ohm Walsh 2000s, which I know can produce pretty good, deep bass in my room without a subwoofer. I may have a 64 lb. paperweight on my hands. Worse, I don’t really have the money for a new amp (at least not one I would want to own long term). I have tried another amp, but it was vintage, and I could not find the input impedance. I am working with Johnny Rutan at Audio Connection to figure all this out. He has offered to stop by my house with an amplifier and see what happens, so I am waiting for him to have an evening when he has some free time. But it has been a very frustrating 6 months. I miss my rig. :-( |
@enginedr1960 - So, if I read your last post correctly, you compensate for roll-off below 50Hz with the passive pre? Does it have enough gain for this purpose? I guess that is possible if it is a transformer based volume control, but I thought passive volune controls were mostly attenuators. Or, perhaps the DSPeaker is where you get your subwoofer signal gain from? Please ’splain it to me. |
@sonicjoy - Yup, that was kind of a given as far as I was concerned. Note only is it helpful for the main speakers, but lowers the burden on the amplifiers significantly. All good reasons for a HPF for the mains. That alone might steer me away from REL and Rythmic and towards Vandersteen. That said, no crossover is 100% transparent. The M5-HP is very good, but not as good as no crossover at all. You have to way the pros and cons of adding another dividing network to your system. For me, it is more than worth it for the incredible bass the 2Wqs put out. |
@bstatmeister - You are 100% on the same page as I was when I started to look for a sub. I did exactly what you did, picking up one 2Wq, then several months later a second one, placing each in the front corner outside the mains. And, when the material calls for it, these two subs can shake and pressurize the room quite well, IME. One thing I would also plan on, is eventually upgrading to the M5-HP crossovers. Not cheap, but worth every penny, IMHO. |
The M5-HP is a battery biased active crossover designed for use with either Vandersteen speakers featuring built-in powered subs or Vandersteen 2W series subs. They have internal jumpers that must be set to match the input impedance of your main amplifier(s). They can be ordered either in balanced or single-ended versions. As long as you don't switch from balanced to single-ended or vice-versa, these should work with almost any amp you might use now or in the future. Note that the 9-volt battery must be soldered in, and if you use lithium 9-volt batteries, expect to do this about once every 10 years. |
A word of caution - I cannot really understand what is being attempted here, but Vandersteen does caution against using XLR-single-ended converters with the M5-HP. There are different types of converters. The ones made by the Digital Amplifier Company are pricey, but there is more to them than I can easily undertand or explain. They ain't cheap, either. @tomic601 - M7??? I wasn't even aware there was such a thing. Prolly more than I can afford anyway. My M5-HPs are in Hanford being inspected/repaired. Yes, I miss them, but they were behaving badly. |
@mr_m - My first sub was (and is) a def Tech PF15. A boomy mess until I got a Behringer FBD Pro parametric EQ. The whole thing was a beast to set up, but the results were, um, okay. But I noticed, once I had flattened out the response a bit, the plate amp was getting really hot to the touch, especially with movies. That kind of scared me. The Behringer is gone, and the Def Tech is for LFE duty only, equalized by the DSP in my AVR. Then I got first one, then another 2Wq, and later the M5-HP crossovers. No comparison. And my set-up story mirrors yours exactly. Easy as pipe. @bstatmeister - I happened to be at Audio Connection in Verona, NJ, last night. He has the Nines, but they are not hooked up yet. Yes, they look like beasts, although, size-wise, the 7's are large, but not huge. Still, I was surprised to see one 13" driver rather than multiple smaller drivers. I am sure it won't matter with RV as the designer, and perhaps he is feeling the pressure from the competition who usually use one massive driver rather than multiple small ones. I did get treated to a nice demo of the Quatros, though. Johnny Rutan of Audio Connection really knows how to set up a system. |
IMHO, the biggest, and unique, advantage of the Vandy subs is that they feed off the same speaker taps as the main speakers. This preserves the phase and Sonic characteristics of the main amp, making a seamless blend with the main speakers much easier. Also, few other subs are designed for corner placement, which is where many people place their subwoofers. And having adjustable Q is also a rare, and maybe unique, feature as well. |
@lewinskih01 Thanks. I had no idea. So, the Rythmic subs also have a fixed crossover of ?Hz? Remember, the Vandy doesn't pass the amplified signal through it's own crossover, but requires both main speakers and Vandy sub speaker wires be connected to the speaker taps simultaneously. If that is also the case with the Rythmic subs, I stand corrected. All I can say is that I plopped my 2Wq subs in the front corners of my room, made a few adjustments to the Q and level controls, and got seamlessly integrated, deep, powerful and tuneful bass. And that's with both my old Vandy 1Cs and my current Ohm Walsh 2000s. |
So I did look at some of the Rythmic models on their website, and appears that the speaker level inputs are standard speaker level inputs. This is completely different than the Vandy design. The plate amp on the Vandy sub has a very high resistance rating, so it draws no power from the amp. But the Vandy sub amp has a built in first order roll up beginning at 80 Hz. The crossover you insert between the preamp and the main amp has a corresponding roll off, first order. So, while you could set up a Rythmic sub to mimic this feature, you are not connecting the mains and the speaker level inputs to the same main amp tap like with the Vandy sub. IMHO, that's where the magic happens. |