Vandersteen Sub woofers v Rythmik Subs
Steve - M12 is a feature laden beast for sure, my eyes glazed over by page 12. short answer is yes, use high pass built into M12 . I don’t have any insight into how phase correct so steeper slope’s probably better. Key will be experimenting and listening. I would download vandertones ( free test tones on Vandy website ) . That will help you pinpoint room modes and ameliorate w placement, tweaked to crossover freq and as I mentioned in prior post partial swarm w purposefully choosing overlap. jim |
@500homeruns aka Steve : I slogged thru the M12 manual and didn’t see a high pass filter, settings for it and IMO a phase accurate filter ( after all you did buy a time and phase accurate speaker in the Treo - congrats btw, you should consider joing tge vandersteen owners forum on the Vandy site. Not everyone there owns Vandy subs. There are more than a few Treo owners w other subs…well integrated… ) First the Treo in most rooms are flat to 40 hz. You can implement the low pass filter in the M12 if desired. Having the sub play higher than 40 hz will create some swarm effect and smooth in room response. Obviously the sub three has 11 bands of EQ below 120 hz and is not powered by a garden variety plate amp. I wouldn’t discount 3 x 8” and a power factor corrected feed forward optimized amp…but hey the do cost $ for a made in USA sub/amp. You may want to borrow a M5 high pass filter and see what that sounds like at a range of settings. Mid bass slam and midrange clarity are typical improvement as load comes off the main amp. You can then either buy a set of filters OR implement them inside your Rogue power amps. Have fun, let me know if i can help. Jim |
great bass is amazing, so is state of the art imaging ! a 40 HZ filter is certainly low....not a ton of music down there... what are you listening to with content down that low ? i love The Organ Loft FM show...and of course the organ/ organist at our church...cool dude he sits in all over Europe when an organist goes on leave... |
one issue is bass is directional above 150 HZ so subs that have much output above 150 HZ , especially those behind you ( in the corners, typically four corners..mess up spatial phase information so you can trade away that for smoother bass... for those with digital room correction, IF you rerun do the settings change ? IF so, why ? averaging algorithms? sample weighting, sample stack ? ambient noise ? for grins, run the RTA w no music on and see what is happening in the room...AC cycling, freezer, trash truck out front.....you will be amazed.... Apogee stages, very fine CT but I guess you and I have shared that story before... |
Ok math and physics read the measurements in the reviews and understand that relative to most dynamic loudspeakers Vandersteen presents a rather benign load... is it a perfect lab resistor? no since we have established no tube amp transformer can drive any variable load, appears roughly half of the Industry and music zealots will need to take up bowling.. i worked in advanced technology business to 30 years - cool stuff based on math and science - satellites, rockets, missiles, helicopter, people haulers, ... lots and lots of armchair engineers claiming we got it wrong... over those 30 years a few, scant few did have a better idea, some actually quite disruptive to technology and the industry ( think stealth and the math behind it ) but without the stones or capital or common sense to get it to market ( making $ even harder ) so so who knows, perhaps .... but it since I am interested in better sound, I earnestly await ?????? |
@noble100 tim - it looks like you missed a few decades of Vandersteen innovation since your speaker shopping experience with now long discontinued model 4 yes Vandersteen has always been about frugal value many of the products ( which you can still buy in upgraded version today ) have risen less than inflation ( Model 1ci data available on a recent thread ) perhaps you have run a business and did better that inflation... I can say having run a $1b a year operation it can be tough and requires constant improvement i would say including Dick Hardesty that Vandersteen entered the ranks of the very best of high end with the model 5 which includes a magical push pull aluminum cone driver with patented honeycomb bracing - lots of crappy non pustonic drivers might even out frequency response but out of phase junk is distortion. the 7 which you seem to malign ( have ya heard it ? ) as Uber expensive is with exceptions of Magnepan probably the best value in SOTA speakers count me as biased, I own a pair and the monoblocks look at peer group prices at Munich show and perhaps learn that $62k might be good value did you by any chance take time to understand the carbon fiber and constrained layer cabinet in the 9 sub ? finally Vandersteen are ruthless about driving advanced features and technology down the line to improve Sound in less expensive models i get you love swarm, you are happy enjoy the music !!!! |
Certainly the load the main amp sees can influence the sound jn a properly designed system such as Vandersteen the transfer function of the main amp is preserved, the sub amp is optimized and power factor corrected to properly drive the sub and present a fairly benign load to the main amp most people think the sonic virtues outweigh any small math issues.... |
bstat....my first sentence got cut... it was : 9 was developed to use with primarily 7, perhaps quattro for very large room, higher spl needs....the 7 in particular with the aluminum cone push pull built in sub is capable of amazing bass...the 9 is literally a below 20-60 hz machine where a large driver is needed or best suited for the duty cycle, etc..... i will say ( again ) you might want to look for a pair of 5a...... Jim Sole Survivor Proprietor- Dusk to Dawn Audio, Ltd |
hz is in the music they will reproduce it well. my understanding is the 9 is for larger rooms, more spl and tge driver is optimized for a very narrow range like 60 hz and down, hence the choice of driver..... every now and then, often near the end of a listening session with the 7’s and most likely a nice bottle of Red, i imagine them in the corners.......how could my wife notice them ??????????? |
M7 high pass filter in cast box, with carbon fiber cover, guts are different, especially the battery config for DBS they are around $2k at retail i got them when I had 5a and went from a SE power amp to a balanced Ayre, so I cannot comment on sonic change with only the filter as a variable. i do however trust that RV would not put out a dolled up sonic equivalent... the change to Ayre and M7 was staggering... i sold the M7 filters here on agon a few months ago, astute buyer...$1300, they have WEL pigtails.... bstat the blender can be thought of as a diffuser of sorts i guess hope you get some quiet time download the sub manuals and you can read all the cautions on grounds and hots... |
without digging around much on your specific power amp, you are likey to find the unbalanced input sounds better......there are extra parts ( phase inverter, etc) in the balanced path and we can pretty much assume your amp is not a balanced topology internally..... but listen to both and decide...... you do need to be careful to not fry your sub amp......grounds and hots hyper critical..... the fixed Vandy filters pale sonically to the M5 or the even better M7 street price xlr and se about the same, but imo xlr much more rare as people usually move in that direction....but not always...... |
i would be inclined to run single ended get converters out of tge way.. Conrad Johnson and many, many others do magical things with SE there are two versions of the 5 filter with different DIP switch, I believe 6-8 or 8-10 positions more DIP positions indicate a more recent filter but a quick call to Hanford, or competent dealer would tell ya, both are perfectly good the AQ Fire cables are very good, SKY is better but we are talking small stuff here and that assumes you have Sky level cables elsewhere..... |
easy the jumpers are actually DIP switches, just know with certainty the input impedence of your amp ! failing that you can use Vandertones and a Multi-meter to get it right ! m5 in single ended do come up used and Randy at Optimal Enchantment in Santa Monica always seems to have an extra used set, as will many Vandersteen dealers try to get batteries with some years left and Audioquest Sky pigtails :) |
Great bass everywhere in the room would not be prime Vandersteen design objective great bass and the rest at a very optimal listening position is. hence lots of out of the box ideas implemented over the many years by RV ... out of the box which is a metaphor for innovation, not more boxes = out of the box.... anyway just a few that work together as a system to create the stereo illusion... power factor corrected amp optimized for drivers in sub transfer function of the main amplifier preserved - very important to preserving lower midrange phase integrity high pass filter adjustable for amp time and phase coherent minimum baffle eq bands not at fractional octaves to address common room nodes ( that one if ya pay attention is way out of equalizer box theory.... push pull aluminum cone sub in the 5 etc carbon fiber cabinet inside a cabinet.. the list goes on |
Interesting ......RV might be the only designer who cares about phase.... the 11 EQ frequency were picked for probable room nodes, not 1/3 octave or every 10 HZ for those with M5-HP: the 7 filters while not inexpensive do offer an upgrade path yes in theory a DIP switch has a sonic thumbprint, the M7 amplifiers eliminates that and a host of other issues, I can attest, the combo is sublime.... |
“RV is hard on the wallet”... omg that is funny, I will let the frugal Dutchman know.... funny ( pucker story ) when our 7’s were being delivered the truck driver had to surf the pallet jack with brake down a short but steep section of the street. As we looked down the hill, the driver asked me “ new speakers, huh ? Expensive? I said all the stuff on that single pallet is about a new Corvette... driver grinned and said He$$ yes I can do it !!!! they arrived safely have fun |
Accused fanboy but IF you are running Vandersteen mains, the whole shooting match of Sub and Main have been developed to work together especially impulse FFT in the Anechoic chamber.... RV ( on the way to Munich ) would probably emphasize the analog nature of the approach, not a big fan of digital the new sub 3 comes with 11 band analog EQ iF you run AMROC ( or other tools on your room ), there will be many, many nodes. DSP algorithms tend ( note my careful choice of word ) to goal seek ultra flat, which ends up lifeless. you might also not a Vandersteen bias in EQ ranges ( cut vs boost ), there is thinking, logic, physics behind that ) preserving the transfer function by running thru the main amp is important, but it is understandable why other steep slope manufacturers don’t care as they hacked the transfer function out the window :-) jim T got it too, but he is unfortunately dead swarm has a ton of theoretical and practical merit, with obvious WAF issues, you can get similar some would say better results with two subs because there is a narrow sweetspot anyway ( see Jim Smith book ) have fun in your search !!!!!! |
