Vandersteen 3A Sigs vs Klipsch Forte III

LOL...love that.  let us know (also text me, lol).  I loved those cork and sorb sheets.  Remember them well.

I salvaged some great cork / sorbothane horn damping sheet goods ( from the condo soundroom buildout) , more than enough to do a triple layer on the exterior horn bodys on the Cornwall,s

i will report back if the French horns move to the correct spot!!!!

pS Cleveland in the hey days had pretty good horns, I think I can remember what they sound like!!!!!

I'm totally on board with Tomic on this one.  I guess we all hear differently, but I also use some decent electronics that I match properly with my VAndersateen Quatro's..>I've owned plenty of speakers over the years as well and I get to audition many speakers of all price ranges and have an idea of what we are discussing here. 

The two contenders here sound nothing alike. My findings are similar to Phil’s. I was using VMPS models for 12 years. Very engaging planar mids with outstanding bass response. I picked up a set of Klipsch Quartets for cheap at an estate sale, for kicks really. I was immediately floored by the dynamic sound of live music. I heard no internet myths such as ’honk’ etc.
The top end was nice and resolving, not quite as extended and resolving as the VMPS excellent EMIT tweeter. Not harsh. I looked inside the horn and could see they had they upgraded titanium diaphragms. Also the same tractrix horns as the ForteIII.

With placement experimentation I got very good imaging by toeing them in to cross just in front of my listening spot. 16" off of the wall. Not quite as good as the VMPS, but with those you lose taht sweet spot it if you move from the narrow beam.

The VMPS are also very dynamic. The Quartets, more so. The first speaker I’ve had that sounds lively even at low volumes.

The VMPS has a very narrow sweet spot, being planars. The Quartets sound great anywhere in the room and the soundstage retains depth. With their controlled directivity there seems to be no reflection from walls.

The VMPS have deep solid bass into the the upper 20’s 3db +/-

Quartets-38db. Overall, the Quartets beat out the legendary VMPS. It totally surprised me.

Vandersteens have a nice, tonality and soundstage but sound polite in comparison. Weak dynamics. They do not sound like live music, but nothing offensive about them.

I suspect cheap, bright SS amps might sound rough with the Fortes.

Heardthat...

i think your Mc integrated is definitely up to the task of providing sufficient power to enjoy the possibility of the Vandies, and it’s most definitely up to providing that and more with the higher efficiency Klipsch.  For a brief time I had the latest McIntosh receiver - 6700? - which was 200 watts per into 4/8ohms along with sufficient current. 

However, methinks you are best suited to the Klipsch choice simply because you won’t find yourself chasing different amps/higher power to get the Vandies to sound “right”.  And that’s a good thing.  
For the past few years I’ve been guilty of chasing the audio dragon in that vein much in part to moving off the Klipsch.  Thiel, Dynaudio, Magnepan...all and each lower efficiency than any Klipsch. B.  A. T., Pass Labs amps...the list is surprisingly long for a man of my means, and rather embarrassing to a certain degree.  

Just for the absolute hell of it I picked up a 5 watt per channel DIY version of a Pass Labs SS amp.  I think I’m gonna find a used pair of Klipsch and see if returning could be fun!

I just have a subscription to Rolling Stone....

ha

not really, Seattle and Cleveland before that....

but it I think you have witnessed apples and Octopus writ large, could not get two more different approaches and speaker companies and designers.... and sounds...

The Lascala II has taken care of many of the weaknesses of the original. Thicker, less resonant cabinet ( especially noticeable with the doghouses ), upgraded crossover components, upgraded wire, etc. But, even the series II can be improved, but, it is my secret on how......sorry..........MrD.

Most won't believe it but the La Scala is the best imaging speaker on the planet, IMHO.  The depth that the speaker creates is just uncanny. Like a mini monitor, the speaker totally disappears.  But unlike a small monitor the scale is so big, dynamic with a very full bass range.  The secret to the La Scala's imaging mastery is the "doghouse".  The bass horn, which is coherent with the mid and high frequency horns (no separate driver effects here) launches a sound wave unique to my ears.  The three dimensionality of the sound is not exceeded by anything else.  And I speak from experience.  I have owned or heard all types of speakers from boxes to electrostatics to magnetic planars to omnis to line sources to other horns , etc. The sound is huge but instruments stay focused with proper sizing.  The Avantgarde horns, also excellent, do not sound as convincing as the Klipsch probably do to this "doghouse effect".  The AG's also do not have the coherence since the bass is self-amplified unlike the Klipsch where one amp drives the whole system.

The La Scala gets to about 45 Hz in my setup.  It can be listened to without a sub.  But bass is the foundation of the live orchestral sound so a sub crossed over at about 35Hz fills the bass that is lacking. You can get the growl that the low strings have at a live classical concert.

I am not familiar with the original La Scalas but the II version has zero grain, glare or brightness.  It is ultra smooth sounding. 

+1 Phil......When set up properly, the Lascalas can disappear, giving you that height, width and depth of a soundstage. But more importantly, it is that "effortless" quality you hear at a live performance. A buddy of mine owns some top of the line B & W speakers. I do not want this to be a hammering of the B&W or Vandys, Since owning horns for over 30 years ( with some other top brands and models ), nothing sounds " as live ", as said by Phil. Keep in mind, not everyone wants this or likes this, or has experienced this. This friend of mine comes over, and is always blown away. But, he goes home, happily, to his B&Ws. And I am sorry to say, the Fortes, even the series 3 ( I heard them briefly about a year ago at an audio meet in S. Florida ), are nothing to a pair of Lascalas. Lascalas can use good subs for that last octave, if you can find some that can keep up. MrD.

Phil, very interesting. I just saw a LaScalla II review, albeit by someone who sells them, and he commented that the II is much improved over previous. They are beasts and take a room that can accommodate. At least the top tweet and mid are removable from bottom cabinet for better handling. 
Phil, how do u assess their soundstage, imaging, depth, etc?

I have owned 2 Vandersteen speakers (3A and Quattro) and 2 Klipsch speakers ( RP-160M and La Scala II).  I am a subscriber to the philharmonic and use live classical music as my reference.  There is no comparison.  The La Scala hints at what the sound of live music sounds like.  It has a big dynamic sound similar to what I hear in the concert hall.  The Vandersteen is a pale and compressed imitation of the real thing.  It sounds OK but nothing like the live sound.  Even though I use classical music as my guide in evaluating audio gear, I do listen to all types of music as well.  Play Creedence's "Ramble Tamble" on both speakers.  The Vandersteen sounds flat and boring.  With the La Scala the band is in the room.

My pillow needs 100 hours of run in to form and sing properly.... LaScala can do it in 20 hours with Burnin by Bob Marley....

it helps if you are also burnin.....

the punk/ Rockabilly band I mixed sound for had a stacked set for a PA

no pillow required !!!!!!

MrD, crack me up. I would say it's never about me.....my wife would disagree !!  All good, banter is good and I'm picking up the morsels and digesting. 
Oblgny, thanks for checking on 3a's. Thot they were still making em. That's a good thing. Wonder if and when they would throw the carbon tweeter on it. But then they negate the Treo I guess because the 3a already has the woven mid cone like the Treo. 
Side note; as a kid, 8 years old, a bunch of years ago, I first heard LaScallas. The neighbor kids dad told us to stay away from them, righhhhht.....I was enthralled with them and the "big" sound they made. I remember laying in front of them and reaching in behind that cool "V" of wood to try and feel where that sound was coming from. After all, my dad's speakers had a big speaker (woofer) that I could see and touch. So, one day we went into the living room to check those treasure chests out and the kids dad had put pillows into the recesses of the bass chambers. I never knew what that was all about and till now, 50+ years later, have never asked anyone. So what gives?  Was he muffling the bass so as not to wake or disturb anyone? Or was it to artificially enhance or subdue an overbearing bass?  Maybe his wife was pissed at him for not mowing the lawn and stuck his pillows in there. 

Actually, I just dropped into the website and it appears that the 3A Sigs are still being manufactured. $4795 the pair. Lots of upgrade paths for owners of all the models, too.  

I assumed that treating the Klipsch tweeter with dampening material meant on the exterior of the horn. (although I once stuffed the horn with small wads of packing foam to tame them).  All that did was...obvious.

When I opened my EPIC CF-3’s once I was surprised to discover that all the internal wiring was run-of-the-mill speaker wire, perhaps 14 gauge. 

The native efficiency of Klipsch does offer a degree of practicality in terms of finding a suitable amplifier - meaning that one doesn’t necessarily need “gobs” of power on tap to make them show their stuff.  I used a Cayin A35T integrated amp with mine for a while and that was a “mere” 35 watts in triode, 16 watts ultralinear - which I preferred to use 90% of the time. 

Now, along with tube amplification, class D offers considerable price/value sonics for any brand of speaker out there.  

@heardthat, I do apologize......this thread should be about you, but, I am sure you are enjoying the readings. Always, MrD.

@tomic601 

No math required. In my particular experience, it's very easy to hear. I'm not saying wide baffles are inherently better at imaging. I'm sure the opposite is often true, but my experience tells me it's not a universal rule. Some of the best speakers I've heard, regardless of price, have massive baffles. Anyway, I agree that in the case of Klipsch Heritage speakers, great imaging isn't exactly their forte. 

Someone mentioned somewhere, that they put a dampening substance inside the horn throat to reduce coloration or resonance. I highly recommend against that. It should all be from the exterior of the horn. 

tomic601"Since the spatial info is encoded in the signal, somebody walk me thru the physics of how a big baffle improves the image ?
you do get the bounce off the panel and the back wall is 100% distortion...."

No it is not 100% distortion because recordings are made, mixed and mastered to be played over a loudspeaker in some kind of room except lousy recordings that are made to be played in a car although I am not sure that is common practice in the industry today.

Since the spatial info is encoded in the signal, somebody walk me thru the physics of how a big baffle improves the image ?
you do get the bounce off the panel and the back wall is 100% distortion....
but have at it, math gets extra credit
the same applies to focusing energy with a horn, ain’t nothing free.....
remember, I own horns, listen to them every day, I can assure you depth of image is not on my list of things they do well....

i will I’ll accept the homework assignment to go in and put a constrained layer damping treatment on the horn body, 

Have you or roxy even heard the Forte III

Yes I owned them for 4 mts got them cheap, as they were a good turnaround to make money on. A friend owned the older version, bass wasn’t as good/low on them.

Cheers George

Heardthat...

I had a pair of Vandy 2-somethings a pretty good while ago so I was relatively sure these would be at least as good.  The Bluebook average is around $2200 and I paid $1500 for these - a good deal overall.  They’re replacing my Maggie 1.7i’s which I absolutely love, but once again the sheer physicality of these great speakers proves bothersome to me. 

The price and local pickup clinched the deal for me. Original owner, all the good stuff buyers look for on this site. I emailed Vandersteen to see if I could replace the socks and within a day I got a response.  I know they can still service them if need be, but I think they ceased production a while ago. 

I read with interest here the comment about deadening the tweeters on the Klipsch with damping material, but I wasn’t as into the audiophilia thing then as deep as I am now. Had I known...I might have kept the Epics. 

As my fave speaker brands may tell you, Thiel, Maggie, Klipsch, I prefer mid and treble resolution above bass.  My finickynesa with bass is BAD bass, too many speakers new and old are colored and false which sucks the life out of the music imho.  

I have fairly large baffle, monkey coffin speakers and to my ears, they absolutely trounce most of the narrow baffle towers I've owned/auditioned. They also image better than the Maggie's I had for a time.

I have owned all of the Klipsch models mentioned. I just recently sold, locally, a pair of self modified ( I modify everything ) Epic CF2s ( the best out of the 4 Epic models, imo ), but, just like the 2 pair of Heresys I still own, I was not listening to them, as I have multiple systems set up. The Epic series was a different animal for Klipsch, and were a good design. Roy Delgado ( Epic designer ) is still with Klipsch, as far as I know ). Parts for them are hard to come by if needed. My Lascala system is the one that brings me my " joy of listening ". The biggest upgrade you can make to a Klipsch speaker ( any model ), is to heavily dampen the horn, using a material such dynamat. However, any upgrade takes them further. And yes, I am saying it ( as I have said elsewhere ) that all Klipsch were manufactured with a specified price point, and that all can be taken to a much higher level with upgrades and mods. My favorite Klipsch models have always been the Khorn, Belle, and Lascala. As a semi retired, single ( divorced ) man, I have free reign of any room. Any Klipsch lover should go to the Klipsch forums. Enough of my gab. Enjoy all. MrD.

One of the reasons I switched to the Treo's is the Sound Anchors on the 3a sigs made them so hard to position in my crowded room. If they kept the same footprint as the speaker, instead of extending backward, things would have been less complicated.
In any case, it was a good move. The Treo's are a much advanced speaker, and they look much nicer.

TDK was my favorite. 
I still have my splicing kit with the splice tape and all. Have TEAC reel to reel still, in a box though. 

Yes, while not completely fossilized, I remember the cassette advertisement- although with a Tandberg ( off topic but a Dragon killer ) I would never use Memorex.....

ya sound anchors will rock solid couple to floor and make micrometer ( near) tilt adjustment possible....

The Vandie’s are more musically correct, the Klipsch Forte III are the best musical speaker Klipsch made, not as good as the Vandie’s, but the Forte III can be powered almost by rubbing two sticks together.

George,

Have you or roxy even heard the Forte III, or are you going on memory about the earlier versions? Different animals to be sure......

Oz

(((what is it with Sound Anchors?  I have not had the advantages of the dynamics of stands explained to me. "Is it real, or Memorex?")))

 The Sound Anchors when properly snugged up and tilted as in instructions manual which I highly suggest you read will take the speaker to another level by keeping the speaker from moving,.
 improving total performance solidity and clarity.
 Best JohnnyR 

Hi George,
I hear what you're saying, but with the Forte comes the complications of being a 3 way, as well as a much smaller mid horn. In actual use, I don't hear the lower mid colorations that you mention, but the coherence of the mids and treble being produced by one 2 inch horn loaded dome is on full display, and I think it is the speakers greatest strength.
Have you actually heard the CF-4? (version1)
John  

Trouble with the CF-4 is it’s double 12" two way, that horn has to handle both mids and highs more colouration’s and the 12" bass units are crossed over at 1500hz to the horn which is well into the mids, not good for 2 x 12" to handle mids also more colouration’s again. The CF-1 would be the go 2 x 6.5" to the same horn, it would be far less coloured in the lower mids, still has the problem with mids to highs though with that single horn.

The Forte was thought out better in regards to colouration’s.

Cheers George

Tomic, so what is it with Sound Anchors?  I have not had the advantages of the dynamics of stands explained to me. "Is it real, or Memorex?" (U old enough for that one?) The anchor must push it out at least 8-12" yes?

Roxy, was not familiar with the CF-4 Klipsch. Seems there's a 1,2,or 3 edition. So even within a production model there can be variations of sound and preferences. This also appears to be the case with Vandys as upgrades are made but no real differentiation made within a model name. Technology marches on so I get it, but I wish we could better track advances to stay as current as we can with the latest and greatest. 

georgehifi,
The Forte is certainly a good speaker, but I will have to argue that the Epic CF-4 has it beat.

Well you can achieve image depth and plenty of it less than 3’ out
the 3a is not a deep speaker at all but the significant and imo crucial soundanchor stand does project back a bit. The will sound good with the anchor almost touching the wall and you will get a ton of bass. Out another 6-12” will tame that.
the physics and hearing say to minimize time smear you want something like 5’
but with 6 dB slopes and a low diffraction design you are already ahead, finally treating ( but not overtreating ) the back wall can help.
my Brother has my old 3asig, 120 wpc PS Audio amp, ARC tube pre, anticables....
they rock
but go listen, we are so blessed to have much to choose from
the Forte were in black ash - they looked lovely :-)

Georgehifi, Classic.....we could do beers together!!

Vandersteen 3A Sigs vs Klipsch Forte III

The Vandie’s are more musically correct, the Klipsch Forte III are the best musical speaker Klipsch made, not as good as the Vandie’s, but the Forte III can be powered almost by rubbing two sticks together.

Cheers George

Gdnrbob, nuts is right !!!  Those are the ones. Damn be it all. I coulda been a contender....should a pulled the trigger. And they were clean newer ones. There'll be more

Oh nuts, looks like the sale is off or sold.
B

@OP, I think you can get a pair of 3a sigs for around $2k plus shipping, unless they are very recent iterations- Mr. V. constantly upgrades, so a more recent pair should command a higher price.
Though I have no experience with Tekton or Klipsch, I think you will not be disappointed by Vandersteen should buy them without audition, they simply sound 'right'.
(BTW- I owned the 3a sigs, but move up to the Treo's- a definite upgrade.
If you can spring the bucks, there is a pair of Treo CT's for sale for $5K-check out HifiShark, which I think is a super deal).
B

Oblgny, congrats on the Vandy 3A's. Were they on your radar for a while? And had you auditioned before you bought?  I have to go back to their website cause I thought 3a Sigs were still being made. Saw a pair for $2600+300 shipping so it seems high?  I like the concept of bi-wiring, which they have. Not an option on Tekton DI or spatials I don't think.  All your comments are relevant for me about Klipsch. "Bright" is a recurring theme. But....those Forte III's, like Tomic said, sounded good. 
Oddiofyl, went for a more up front sound with the Heresy III ? Tired of laid back sound?  I get that as your tastes can change. Mine can change day to day, like I said, based on mood. There is no "perfect" speaker, is there?  Tekton is sending all other speakers into obsolescence (humor intended 😂).  
Another complete system would be ideal to satisfy moods. $$$$
I do have a room issue in that I can't, er., not allowed to, be further out from back wall by more than 12". Rear passives and rear ported and Spatials all want to be out around 2-3 ft or more. 
Oblgny, how far out are your 3a's?  I cant imagine that depth in soundstage can be appreciated unless speakers are 2,3, or more ft out.  True?

Im going to ripped for this but I've owned many speakers that on paper were "reference", hell some even wore the " Reference" moniker but I was looking for a change and listened to some Heresys, Fortes, Cornwalls......  they were the first speakers I've auditioned that all had one thing in common.... they sounded like live music.   Perhaps owning polite , laid back , "accurate" speakers was growing old, or maybe im getting old...  I don't know but I really love the Heritage lines'  ability to rock and be dynamic and bold.   Forget what you hear from people referencing older Klipsch or people that have never even heard Heritage series, they are not one bit harsh with quality electronics.   I listened to a bunch of other speakers that day but they all sounded small and lifeless compared to the Heresy III That I brought home.   I would have purchased the Forte but they need to be a few feet away from the wall which was a deal breaker for me, and honestly the Heresy were the right choice for me as they are the perfect size for my room.

Good luck 

heardthat

ya I was suprised also but brick & mortar continues to consolidate here in San Diego as elsewhere in the country. Stereo Design a venerable dealer went out with owners retirement and Bruce picked up Magneplaner, Mcintosh and I believe Klipsch as they exited...
have to say you should visit...almost dizzying array of loudspeakers : Klipsch, Vandersteen, Magneplaner, PSB, Goldenear, Dynaudio, Totem, Sonus Faber, .....stuff I don’t recognize in corners, etc...

i should add the Forte III driven by KT-120 quite listenable.....

i love visiting even if I dented the wallet with $250 worth of Vinyl.....ha

Wow - this is a difficult comparison!

I just purchased a pair of Vandie 3A Sigs from a fellow member here a couple of weeks ago.  While I have not heard the Cornwalls nor any other Klipsch model in quite some time, I have to assume that their design philosophy and engineering have not gone into any sort of radical departure since I owned a pair of Epic CF-3’s and a pair of KG4’s.  Highly efficient, horn loaded compression tweeters...

The Cornwalls have an efficiency rating of 102db, the Vandies are 87db.  The Vandies go down to 26hz, the Klipsch 34hz. You could pretty much drive the Cornwalls with a table radio, the Vandies...need a little more power on tap. Your amp @100 watts per channel is sufficient for either methinks, but will probably be less stressed with the Cornwalls if you listen at high levels.  I don’t.  While my choice of amps has usually been around 150 watts for the past few years, that’s more because I found them affordable at a particular moment in time as opposed to me needing more power to drive a particular pair of speakers. 

Anyway...

It’s an educated guess on my part that the Cornwalls will definitely sound “brighter” than the Vandies simply due to the tweeters. Methinks they will also be “punchier” throughout. Having moved through Thiel and Magnepan models over the last few years - both reputed by many to be “bright” speakers - I can offer that the Vandies definitely are more reserved in the highs.  

The Vandies do require bi-wiring and have smaller than the current standard size spade connects on the rear. I use anti-cables for them, which has an option spade to fit the 3A Sigs perfectly.  They’re not too expensive, either. There’s also a dial attenuator on the rear to tweak the treble response up or down if you find the flat setting too little or too much.  Also they come with very substantial, HEAVY metal stands. You can adjust their tilt ever so slightly as well once they’re attached. The stands are spiked so be careful of your flooring - assembled these puppies weigh about 90 pounds apiece. 

Pricewise, unless the inter-web is misleading me, has the Cornwall III’s around $2200 apiece new. The averaged price for the 3A Sigs, used, is around that for a pair according to the A’gon Bluebook. I picked my pair up for appreciably less than that somewhat locally, requiring an enjoyable four hour round trip to get ‘em. They’re no longer manufactured but can still be serviced by Vandersteen should the need arise.  I’m replacing the socks on mine which cost about $150.  The folks at Vandersteen replied to my inquiry about doing so quickly and eagerly, even thanking me for purchasing them used. Imagine that. 

I continue to think that Klipsch makes excellent speakers.  My reason for moving away was what I perceived to be the harsh treble response. Very recently I was thinking about returning to a lower power amp along with more efficient loudspeakers. I researched the Epic CF-3’s that I had around 22 years ago and found a pair advertised for $800 - the same price that I wound up selling them for around 15 years ago. 

Klipsch, Thiel, and Maggie fans are a rather unique collection of people accustomed to hearing widely varying opinions on everything about them.  I’m digging the Vandies because I found my Maggie 1.7i’s to prove bothersome simply due to their physicality. I had to rearrange too much to get them comfortable in my living room.  Love ‘em, BUT...

Tomic, right on !! I thought your man Bruce at S Unlimited didn't have Klipsch. Great u auditioned them. Appreciate your taking your homework seriously. I'm just not ready to pull the trigger on them for a $300 audition based on my reading from folks like yourself. Came upon some Vandy Treo CT's for sale and by the time I did my homework they were gone. Snooze u lose if the price is right. Reading about Tekton DI and Spatial Triode M3. Trying to figure if they're flavor of the month or real deal. Vandy 3A Sigs appear to be real deal. 

homework assignment was to go fairly evaluate the series III Forte as i had not heard the latest revision......a fair criticism...
so I went and did that today at Stereo Unlimited in San Diego....
system: Rogue Cronus Magnum w KT-120, Marantz CD, BlueSound Node with DBS Audioquest silver cables, speaker cables were Nordost
listened to Steely Dan - Everything Must Go, Sol Gabetta - Prayer and a variety of Tidal streamed content ....ran the Magneplaner.7 and the Vandersteen Model 1c ( not the current 1ci )

the Forte III is much improved in the lack of glare dimension but alas remains a nice two dimensional rocker....i will say ( as one ) electric  bass players will like this speaker !!!!!!
midrange is recessed, soundstage depth minimal
they will kill ya with the KT-120 !!!!!!

your results may vary.....

MrD, if I get hold of Eric Alexander I will make it brief and to the point. I can't go very deep into a conversation with him anyways because I don't qualify as an audiophile, I'm an audio enthusiast and I know it. I can't believe he answers the phone. Too much. 
I have the L1230's and won't sell them. I watched a cool series of YouTube videos today by Paul at PS Audio?  He said vintage speakers should probably have a crossover rebuild, caps etc.  The tweeters won't go bad, and the surrounds and cones are pristine. But they're 38 years old. 
Never thought you were "all that".  I always appreciate someone who knows their stuff and doesn't sugar coat the knowledge with bs. The delivery is important and if it's edgy, well, so be it. Not gonna hurt my feelings. And I still might learn something. Thanks for well wishes and ditto. 

BTW....I was very familiar with the L 2030 models, and, wish I had a pair of those right now ( for a 2nd system ). Might need a crossover rebuild.

Sorry for sounding " all that ". Audio has been my life. @heardthat....I wish you the best.