Vandersteen 2CE Signature II: Is it worth the price of $2700? Why are so many for sale?
I have seen several ads on both AG and Ebay for a "variety" of Vandersteen 2CE's
Question: Is:the "latest version:"of the model worth its $2700 price tag considering the evolution of this design over the last 10 to 12 years
Vandersteen's website shares a few paragraphs about the upgrades made; but, has their really been notable or marked improvements in sound quality and overall performance?.
The amount of 2CE's for sale regardless of what version seems unusual,and even cautionary for buyers looking at a used pair ( taking into consideration age and condition)
Lastly, does this model compete with the performance of other speakers in its price range??
I promise you that the Sim gear will move any stage forward. That's part of what they do and why some who love the front row seats, like the Sim gear. It's a different taste deal.
That said, I've heard Sim separates on the Treo's that I used to own and the stage still started a bit behind them. I also felt that it extended very deep, but I was using a Basis TT with a Rhea phono stage. I didn't like the Sim with anything digital in my system and I was using an Ayre QX5 that I'm now selling. It's a great DAC and matched well with the Sim.
As for the Treo vs the 2's, I haven't heard both in the same system in the same room to be able to really say.
the quote you used from my post was about the 2CE Sigs, not the Treos. The Treo (non-CT) do indeed have a much more forward sound stage than the 2CE Sigs that I had. It may be heightened more by the SimAudio gear. I had a SimAudio integrated with my 2CE Sigs before moving to Rogue Audio tubes. The soundstage was further recessed with the Rogue tube gear.
I know that when I've head the Simaudio gear in a few dealers show rooms as well as at a buddy's house, they were forward. I've heard the whole Vandy line and forward isn't a description I would use as I've never heard them not have a fairly large soundstage with good imaging. My Treo's and Quatro CT's throw a realistic stage if it's fed that. I've had a lot of gear in teh house and I've heard the soundstage change with each different piece. That's just me.
As for the ET's, I"ve been hearing them since the 90's and have always heard them set up properly. As has been stated, you just need the right room. If you have that and you have very good amps with a lot of power, you will get very good sound. The only problem I've had with them is a bit of coherency issues integrating the bass with the panels. It can be done, but it can cost a bit. I like Vandy's as you can easily run them on good NAD, Rotel or Belles or many of the other nice sounding amps from 500 to whatever and keep getting better and better sound.
The 2C/Es are one of the best, if not The Best selling, high end speaker of all time. Thats why so many used units are for sale.
In fact, we should thank Vandersteen for this design recipe. Think how many audio listeners got into high end b/c they could afford a very competent speaker like the Vs. I mean, V hit the nail on the head 40 years ago with their design. God bless em.
@twoleftears Very unusual description of Vandy soundstaging. Not doubting you, but something may have been less than optimal there regarding set-up or system synergy.
are we helping at all ? God i hope so, this is after all supposed to be fun
re Emminent, not my first comment to this effect, magic in right room with 5’ ish behind the....heard a pair at appointment only place in Chicago.....
aint it great to have choices...
as for an imaging anomoly with Vandersteens....yes that sounds odd...they are known for a deep deep soundstage - why great pains are taken to preserve time, phase and a unified wave launch....
It’s a more laid back sound, but so musical and non-fatiguing.
Very interesting. I only heard a demo of the Treo's (non CT) once. Driven by SimAudio integrated. They sounded very forward to me. Not forward in the sense of bright, but forward inasmuch as the soundstage started on a plane well in front of the plane of the speakers, and only extended back a little ways behind the plane of the speakers. Whereas the others (Dynaudio) I heard, same room, same setup, started around the plane of the speakers and extended well behind. Not saying the Dynaudio's had a deeper soundstage in absolute terms, just that the soundstage that there was, was positioned differently w.r.t. the plane of the speakers. Was this experience an anomaly??
Exron Fyi its all good Vifa drivers were well over 20 years ago not one part is the same with latest 2 speakers now w 5 as woven cone mid drivers and tweeter I get they didn't work for you in your crib but in most rooms they sing . The concept of time correct and stealth enclosure still works. Try a give a listen to latest efforts with AQ wired system and not too many pads on the wall that kill needed overtones then pop back here. best JohnnyR
I’m on my second set of Vandersteen - a pair of Treos from Johnny Ruttan at audioconnection. They replaced a beloved pair of 2 CE Sigs. The Treos are outstanding IMO and have a very detailed, up front presentation, even at very low listening levels. In some ways, though, the 2’s more than hold their own. There is a holographic sense of instruments hanging in space that the 2’s do better than the other Vandersteens. It’s a more laid back sound, but so musical and non-fatiguing. At some point if I have a second system, I’d probably buy another pair of them. I remember the first time I heard the 2’s. Johnny played me some music and IMO thinking, “Well this is great and all but I’m not buying a set of $10,000 speakers.” When I found out that they were $1650 ( at the time) I was floored. On a budget, they are a no brainer.
The woofer is an 8" Vifa molded cone with a 2" dustcap and a
double-wound voice-coil. Its free-air resonant
frequency is
28Hz, and while the sealed woofer
enclosure
can be expected to raise that number
some-
what, the effect is tempered by the
presence of
an additional bass driver in the
same enclosure:
an actively driven, rear-firing
10" cone whose
effect on the speaker’s bass system
is similar to
that of a passive radiator.
It's similar to a
passive radiator. It may not be a actual
passive radiator but it is similar to one. That is why I called it a PR. This 10" er has also been called an
active
acoustic coupler & a fiber-cone “supplemental” woofer, but has never been called a real woofer like the real 8" woofer that is above it and around the front. I used to owned these speakers and never liked them as I thought the bass was to slow and a little sluggish, I also did not care for the over all sound of the whole speaker.
You have to understand, this is just my opinion and all I'm doing is saying I don't like them,don't I have a right to state my view? I just don't care for Vandersteen speakers. If it was my money at $2700.00 I would buy the Eminent Technology LFT-8b speakers for $2500.00 that is what the owners of VPI turntables use at their factory.
Regarding serial numbers: Vandersteen doesn't keep records of serial numbers, and Mr. V. will most likely not be able to give specifics. The 'Ask Richard' page isn't well organized and you can spend a day reading through the posts. If you want a rough idea, google the model's release date and try to interpolate. You could also try to call John Rutan and get his idea of how old something is. If you are on the East Coast, he may well have sold them originally.
My take, buy the most current model you can(-so 2 ce sig2's). Get the serial number and call Johnny to see what the current serials are running. I bought a pair of Treo's that Johnny sold to another Agon member who upgraded to Quatro CT's. Though mine are not CT, they are still fairly recent and they sound wonderful. So, even if you don't get something cutting edge, they should sound very good- just not what is currently offered, but then, you would be paying twice as much for that performance... B
Actually you can’t. I asked Richard about my 2Cis and his response was they don’t keep a record of the serial numbers and dates. He did however give me a rough approximate timeframe for mine. Maybe he does now for the newer models.
Vande are a great way to go. Just don't overpay. Also, stay away, far away from the 2ci's not in the same league sound dead just muffled highs so warm they are hot! Bought a pair mint w factory stands locally for $400 unloaded them to a h/t guy who had 1c's after one month. Early 2ce's are fine.
quick call to factory with serial # will give you approximate age Richard answers the phone There is also a section on website called “ ask Richard “ sort of a streaming FAQ, many questions answered there....
How do you know the age/series of the speaker. I bought a used set that say 2Ce and has his signature on the terminal plate. Is that what they mean by signature?
I have the 2ce Sig II. I had done what I offered as advice to the OP when I purchased the Vandersteen. I picked out audio shops within a 90 mile radius of my home and went listening to all brands. KEF, Klipsch, Totem, Magnepan, Paradigm, and at least 6 other brands that I cannot remember. The Maggie 1.7 and 2ce Sig II stood out. Both were very musical, engaging and great for my musical taste and equipment. I like Jazz, Blues and acoustical music. The Vandersteen edged out the Maggies by a short margin. Nothing can replace actuall listening sessions, particularly with equipment close to what you own and your chosen music. Room acoustics play a large part.
I actually considered taking the covers off my 1Bs but instead sent them to Vandy for re-covering after they were abused by cats…a cat trampoline is part of the deal. Got them back and sold them immediately as I couldn't take it…I had done the flashlight thing of course, and with the Sound Anchor stands they were a superb speaker.
No, it is not worth $2700.00. I just don't believe in passive radiators. If your going to put a woofer in the back at least put a real one in. I also never cared for the Vandersteen sound in my opinion. I would like into other speakers.
I currently have my Signature IIs up for sale pending audition of some high quality stand mounted speakers (Usher Tiny Dancers). I've been having some trouble getting the imaging I know is possible from the Vandersteens in the odd room in which my stereo lives. They are laid back in a way, but these are my third pair of Model Twos over the years and I'm not confident that I can find anything as musical as they are in my price range...
That may seem like a bargain considering the current retail is $2700. But what other speakers new like the Magneplanar 1.7i for almost the same amount of money may be superior even though they have different design and work on entirely different sound propagation principles. Regarding a more conventional box speaker, the Revel Performa F-206 is repeatedly praised by reviewers in TAS and Stereophile. I briefly heard them and liked them a great deal, but not for $3500, their current retail price. I have rarely seen a used pair under $2600 and their size and weight makes shipping to the West Coast about $200
I much preferred the current iteration of the Vandy 1Cis to both the Maggie 1.7is and Revel 206s. The Maggies and Revels had quicker bass, but the advantages ended there. I can't help but imagine the 2CE Sig IIs would absolutely wipe the floor with them. I thought the Maggies were a great value until I encountered the 1Cis.
I too, have a pair of Vandersteen Treo CT's. I was playing a rendition of "Sweet Emotion" by Leo Kottke. My Son-in-Law walked into my listening room and exclaimed, "Where's that electric guitar and drummer!?" He couldn't get over how realistic the sound was in my man cave....lol
Thank you again to all who have responded. This thread has provided me with a store house of info on Vandersteen 2CE Signature II. I am curious if anyone knows how much better the 2CE Signatures II are than the original 2CE Sigs
To Jafant The electronics are still the Conrad Johnson 14L SE; pre-amp; Balanced Audio Technology VK200 (100RMS) and the Ayre CX7e mp2 CD player. I did change out the speaker cables about 2 months ago from Harmonic Technology Ref 11 to the Grover Huffman EX cable.
The GH cable which I have owned for about 2 years amazed me with its silent background, excellent dynamics, and deeper bass than the HT cable.. It does have a bit of sizzle at the top end which I can live with. I never got the new GH cable, but had the EX version re-terminated
Sunny, I sold my Treo's to Bob and I LOVED them. I now own the Quatro's and I listen to everyone's 35k or down speakers and still went with Quatro's. Coherency, tonality, extension top and bottom, yet warm enough and smooth. Tons of micro and macro detail give you teh emotion that most speakers are missing.
As Tomic stated above, they use very expensive components and don't worry about the cabinet in the 2 and 3's. If you set them up properly they crush most of the competition that can cost twice the price of each. Not everyone gets them as they don't smear and are time and phase correct as folks have said. They are as true a point source in a conventional speaker as you will probably hear. Feel free to PM any Vandersteen owner on here as we will probably tell you teh same things. Older ones are usually sold as folks move up, like I did.
Since the 2's are the best selling high end speaker of all time and have been on the market since 78 I believe, there will be many for sale. Most are in great shape if taken care of, but if someone can afford the 2700, the newest ones are SOOOOOOOO much better as they have trickle down drivers and components from the original Treo's ;)....Yes, they are that good to most ears. JMHO
I can strongly suggest to seek out a pair of Thiel CS 2.4 loudspeakers
Yes, this is what I moved to after the 2Ce Sig IIs (I had the original with the plastic midrange diaphragm, current production uses the "tri-woven"). Anyone buying used I strongly recommend the CS2.4 over the Sig IIs (altho' make sure your amp is comfy with a 4 Ohm load!). The Vandies are fantastic as I wrote earlier but the CS2.4 has more bass definition (2Ce does go a bit lower, tho'). My SE version also has more resolution and greater transparency. You can get used CS2.4s in good condition for about $2k, sometimes less. Rob Gillum has the upgrade kits to convert to SE equivalency. Tom Thiel will have an even better upgrade path for the XO later this year. I suspect you'll have to move up to something like the 5 Carbon or Vivid B1 to top a tricked-out CS2.4.
But if you're committed to new, it's *really* hard to beat the Sig II.
@wolf_garcia , You can remove the fabric with a little muscle and a small pry bar. There are videos on You Tube showing exactly how. As the 1,2 and 3's are made to be minimal in appearance, you'll see the drivers, but also the wooden dowels holding the end cap pieces. B
Yes you can look under the cover by getting in the dark and by placing a couple flashlight against the cover from different planes... You will be able to see inside.
I have the latest version Vandersteen sig 2 paired with the Belles Aria Integrated and find the combination a match made in heaven. A couple years ago I found a used pair of the original Vandy 2s on Craigslist in remarkable condition and pulled the trigger ($300) I was amazed just how good they sounded for their age, so I decided to purchase the latest version and I'm glad I did. If you are at all curious, I say find a used pair and dive into the world of Richard Vandersteen. Just have fun and enjoy the music!
My only beef with Vandys like the 2 (I had a pair of 1Bs years ago…they sounded great), is you can't take the cover off and look at things…well you "can," but maybe you shouldn't.
I have a pair of McIntosh MC601 monoblocks 600 Watts each that’s driving my 2 CE Sig II with McIntosh C2300 Tube preamp. These speakers can take lots of power and sounds excellent playing at high level volume. Clear, clean, great sound stage, great bottom end, and good transperancy.
what gear is currently in your system? I can strongly suggest to seek out a pair of Thiel CS 2.4 loudspeakers. This model will capture the best attributes between Vandy/Maggie speakers. Happy Listening!
any 5 under ten $ k would be used and yes The Music Room in Colorado - a dealer here on Audiogon has a used pair of 5a for like $6k right now....model 5 would be less. there was recently a pair of fabric original cloth Quattro on Agon for $3,500 ... i know of a nice pair of 2 in oak/ black in Orange County, good dude moving to Magnepans... message me if you want his contact info... best to you in your search wherever it leads...
Thank you to all who have responded so far. The information has been helpful in adding to my store of audio knowledge, especially about speakers
To tomic601. I spoke to Vandersteen customer service to find out more about the difference between the 2Ce Signatures and Sig II. The 2Ce Signatures were issued approx 10 years. ago. The "Signature II" is the second version of the original Signature, and was issued approx. 6 years ago. I was informed that every upgrade in this series represents a significant improvement in sound quality.
BTW, the rep told me that there was a Vandersteen 5 speaker that was under $10,000 (?) and sported amps for the low end drivers. The current 5a is an advance in speaker technology and materials which includes the EQ circuitry and redesigned crossover. etc.
I will check out the Treo CT, but I think they are out of my price range of $3000 .
I got the Treo's after the 3a sigs. I do have a pair of the 2wq subs, so I am Quatro territory. If space is an object, then a pair of Treo's will definitely fit better in a small room, like mine. You can always get subs as funds provide (though I heartily endorse the Vandy's). B
sunnyjim yes the well regarded and reviewer lauded Treo CT no powered sub and no EQ nicer and more expensive cabinet than the 2 or 3 series they also came in a version without the carbon tweeter
i have the CT version on order for our Carlsbad place, you are welcome to stop by for a listen
Regarding the positioning, I personally don’t find them any more (or less) location sensitive as compared to most other speakers I’ve owned or currently own in other rooms/systems. Just like any other speaker, you need to put them a couple of feet away from the side walls and a foot or two from the back wall. Perhaps one exception is they sound better with no toe in and parallel with the back wall. As for the $2700 price tag for a new pair, there are a lot of (other) great speakers out there in the $3K price range so I would definitely take the time to audition as many as possible before I commit to one brand/model. Ultimately, you may decide these are the best bang for the buck, or you may not.
I sold my Magnepan 1.7i`s to my son and bought a pair of Vandersteen 2CE Signature MKII in 2016, My wife and I love much better than the maggies, they work better and sound way better in our room. you should go hear them. Music come to life with them. I now have them with 2WQ subs, a great combo!
Ssunnyjim, if you happen to be in SoCal like LA or Orange County you can come over and listen to my Vandy. 2 CE Sig II as I have them for several years now. I have compared them the some of the $8,000 speakers and the 2CE Sig II still sounds the best for me. It seems like the longer I use them the better they sound but of course positioning the speakers helps a lot and the type of equipment you use with them makes a lot of difference. There are some recording that make it seems like you’re watching a live band but anyway, if you ask me, yes, it’s worth every penny.
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