What is theaudioamp man about? Do you want people to get better sound? What is your shtick? What components have you heard recently that have made your stereo sound better? Will you help us? Do you want to help us? I (and some others here) want better sound....what do you want?

@ricevs , while I agree with you about Viber, are you not doing exactly the same ?  You have not done this testing on your own but are just repeating what your friend has told you. I think you have tested Goal Zero but not evident you have tested anything else.

 

No one has A/Bed inverters that I know of except my friend who said the Ecoflow Pro beat the Goal Zero Yeti 3000 and both where trounced big time by the 5000 watt Giandel. That is all I know. We are in new territory here.....this is why I suggested you or someone buy both the large and small Giandel, the Bluetti and have a comparison party. You could A/B cheaper heavy AGM batteries with LifePo4 batteries, as well.

 

I personally would go for the Giandel because my friend (who has an $80K super revealing tweako system using super modified Apogee speakers) is the one that tested the inverters......he has great ears.....

Why don’t you become the Inverter tester for the world. .........

You can afford it. I bet you have that much on a credit card (maybe $4500 total?). Whatever you do not like, you return for a refund. I would do this.....but I have no credit/money......

 

Viber,

You are a rehasher......you restate what others say but add your own "color commentary". You quote me above and then you rehash it again....but again you cannot get it right. I did not say "a larger inverter would sound better" What I said was ’I would think......and probably"..... Maybe you cannot read? Or do you just like drama? Again, I don’t know nothing. Does a larger inverter have lower output impedance? I do not know. Does a larger inverter have a larger power supply? I would GUESS it would. Stop making things up!

You can buy cheap AGM battery to try (with refund capability). You can buy Renogy LifePo4 batteries through Home Depot.....and I (THINK....MAYBE...YOU BETTER CHECK) they have return policy......you can build your own LifePo4 batteries real cheap......lots of alternatives.....if you really just want to dip you toes in the water.

Guys.......regenerators and balanced power compared to a great sounding inverter is like racing a model T against a Tesla.  But you will have to try the 5000 watt Giandel to know.  You know nothing without listening.  You have invested in the past.....now it is time to listen to the future.......which is now.....always now.  What you did before does not make it great NOW.

The PSA P300 is a favorite of mine, though it has limitations. The idea that a regenerator can reproduce the expected AC wave form is essential. Currently, an engineer and I (mostly him) are working together on a higher performance P300. I cannot give too many specific details, but in general capacitance has been increased, and output transistors in the P300 amp have been replaced. Getting NOS parts for some other issues make it slow going. Still though, those damned transformers get too hot! Might have to rethink that as well.

 In the end, I like the concept of balanced power, and have been using a BPT product for many years. Each secondary (6 in all) have separate windings, allowing different components to have their own circuit. Between that and the balanced concept, I am happy. Power amps do not run off of this unit, but use a grays power 400S in parallel with the AC input. Again this a good idea for me.

@theaudioamp I suggested the PS Audio unit because that is something many people here own and the test data will be consistent.  The level of electrical knowledge here is generally not very high so buying test equipment and using it competently is not likely a plan that will lead to useful data.

@carlsbad, no need to spend money on a PS unit to measure THD. There is lot of test equipment that can do this, probably with more accuracy. You need to test it with real load as well, such as an amp with a linear supply. Most other equipment barely requires any power except tube pre-amps and some processors.

@ I used one of early PSAudio regenerators many years ago, ended up much preferring my transformer based PC. Mine was one of the lower power PS, used only on front end components. Perhaps the newer PSAudio devices much better than previous generations.

 

I have yet to find satisfactory PC for amps and I've tried many. If battery power doesn't blunt transients could be well worth it. I don't recall blunting of transients with my N.E.W., so assume can be done.

@sns Power out of my PSAudio regenerator is always 119.9 vac.  voltage in is generally pretty good but this summer with high air conditioner use in SoCal it is often 115vac. I've also seen 122V.  I too have a monitor plugged into an outlet on the counter. 

Tube amps love the same voltage every day, so I'm glad I got the PP10.

Jerry

You should realize that the power coming into your house qualifies as "perfect sine wave" yet it has (at my house) 4-5% THD.  

I am familiar with PS Audio power regenerators.  They analyze the power in with a scope and give you a THD reading for the incoming power.  

It would be extremely helpful if someone could power a PSA regenerator from some of the highly touted battery systems with "perfect sine wave" inverters and publish the actual THD numbers.  

Until then I'll remain skeptical.  Anyone who calls their power "perfect" is pretty much by definition lying.  But modern marketing practices allow it.

Jerry

@theaudioamp I had forgotten about dc offset issue which I did know about at the time, this was many years ago when I had the issue.

120V is the standard voltage. 125 is not even really high. That would be pretty common if you are the near end of a line run. Transformer hum is not from high voltage, it is from DC offset and sometimes from wickedly bad THD on the line. Likely there was an issue with the mains transformer and/or balancing on your line between phases causing a DC offset. Consumer electronics company (and motor, etc.) will do extensive reliability testing with low voltage, high voltage, etc. as field failures are very costly and easily prevented. A large DC offset if a much different beast. With transformers and motors there is nothing you can really do.

My equipment was not happy with a consistent 123-125V I was getting for years, transformers humming, can't be good for transformers. I finally built bucking transformer to be rid of the constant humming.

 

I did suffer both microwave oven and furnace motor failures during this period of high voltage. Since utility finally came in and fixed over voltage issue, no failures, no humming. I monitor my voltage 24/7, now between 119-121V, exactly 120V at least 90% of time.

Make your own batteries. Easy.

 

NO ONE KNOWS ANYTHING. How many brands of power amp are there? They all sound different.....How many brands of inverters are there? They all sound different.

 

If "only" there was some way to "test" inverters in a consistent, repeatable manner and provide some sort of "scorecard" that indicated how well they performed their function 😎

ricevs,

Here is an excerpt from your post of 8/5. 

"All inverters put out noise and distortion.....that is why they will all sound different from each other and will benefit from further (pure filtering) . The Stromtank and the Exeltech inverters are rated at less than 2% distortion....most of the others like the Giandel are rated at less than 3% distortion. This is not .0001 percent distortion like a Benchmark amp or Purifi amp measures. Distortion.....means noise.....I would think a larger inverter would sound better......probably lower output impedance and bigger power supply."

It's true you never said the Giandel 5000 sounds better than the 2000, but you said that a larger inverter would sound better due to lower output impedance and bigger power supply.  The safest thing to do is trust your friend's great results with the larger Giandel.  BTW, the Amperetime batteries can't be returned for a refund merely because you don't like the sound of them.  You have to take them to an approved technician who will document that there is a defect.

The Giandel 5000 plus 2 Amperetime batteries and cables is merely a $2800 experiment.  Well worth doing, thanks to your friend's experience.

Most electronic equipment is 100% happy from 108-132 because they are designed to. Mass consumer gear will not even blink.  Only poorly designed, poorly tested audiophile gear has issues. And no, there is no research here, just some listening tests that could have been more about the glass in hand than the sound. The rest was too hard to read.

 

This thread's contributors are killing me with how this power (Conundrum)? 

 Which most of us here have realized.

How you are approaching it.

I think what caught my eye here at first was the nomenclature and its use in this thread. And beginning with that. "Small detail though it is really". But, I have noticed over the years that this approach? It tends to pigeon-hole those in the process of advancements in this area.  It is a direction that I find, "As I have watched this several times".  It always ends with not much in the way of any "real" substantiative progress which one may then (Pass-on) to the next of us.   

It also has the tendency to be very frustrating for most. With a curve you could plot that I believe would always show that the ones invested most heavily in funds on this. Being those with the highest 'Anger Management" issues by the time they realize they have just wasted all of those capital gains on what becomes another audiophile rant, yelling 'Snake oil"! As they de-volve into,

 Followers of "Bose".

We all know how this horribly, debilitating disease "Audiophilia" ends...

"No-One" ever gets out alive!

So, we are just going to have to make the best of it! Anyway, if you have stuck with me though all of that!

I know a bit about what we call, "Power". Not everything, But a bit. And for a long, long time I have worked on this problem, "As time, and other pursuits have allowed".

Your group seems to be awfully "stuck" on that one object, The "Inverter".

I am not sure why though.

The largest problem I see with this thread though is in its initial posed question. Because I do not think that "And please correct me if I am wrong".  (Which happens with greater and greater frequency these days! I must admit)!

But I do not see or may have missed where much "Or any" research or serious study was done as to the "Why" you would need or want an inverter. And then, assoc. gear and etcetera.

Ok, "I guess I shall (start), as it were, "Here'!

Typically, we humans, live in "homes". "Homes" must have "Power". 

"Yes", as in "legally". (At least here in the USA...). OR, "No legally habitable address"! 

 That power must be, "certified". by a governmentally Regulated, "Utility Co.".

"You may go, "Off-Grid" after it is built. But until you do that?  You have to at some point have at minimum. A "business assoc." with a power utility co. 

And a power bill.

Most will keep this assoc. 

Now, I could begin here and pick just this apart for several hours.

'Yes really"! But I am trying to actually help with this problem, "Power" and boring you to death would be counterproductive. So just a few main points.

Geography. This will actually matter..

For many reasons, but for this conversation?

 It is mainly related to "Geology".

Where this relates to everyone here? "Grounding", Um, which then relates strongly too geology, "I.E.- Strata mineral make-up. heavy metals density per sq. yd., local aquifers available, depth and distancing. and on and on.

 But mainly grounding,

Your power, "Point of demarcation". And where you are located within your, "Local power grid". Also,-the quality of that infrastructure and it's age. And a hundred other things.

Much of this you do not, "You shall think at first" have any control over. 

But you DO!

In fact, the above mentioned, "Schneider Electric". They will help you by monitoring, evaluating, and even documenting irregularities -"ANY" PROBLEMS, In your home OR business electrical system. And they will do this...

FOR FREE! And also generate monthly, quarterly and annual reports for you.

All of which, by the way, are "Legally certified".

That fact "Could" be important to you at some point.

Nope, not kidding, "Call them". They make the majority of home "UPS" systems in the USA, "As far as I know anyway". I own seven or eight from them currently.

Schneider Elec.? It IS -"APC" corp.

Why might you have them do this? "Man-o-man, I feel like I have just begun a novel..."

I need you guy's to think on this next a little bit to understand the full ramifications of it.

When residential electrical installations "As in regulated in any way" began in the early 1900's. The household. single phase voltage was (100V). And all devices designed for use in home was meant for a system providing a nominal, (100V). (+-5%). The 1930's? = (105V). By the 1950's that was up 110V. 1970's = 115V.

In the 1990's it was officially raised again to the current 120V. (Nominal +-5%)

That (+-5%)  value is very important. "Especially" if you are an avid "Audiophile" and can hear differences in your gear. 

Beyond that (+-5%) tolerance? Almost nothing electronic will work as designed. "It simply cannot"! What gear appears to work is being taxed very hard and will fail prematurely. And the internal "clock" or clocking? Will be way off too. A 5% Voltage irregularity typically yields a (8-9%) phasing discrepancy and more.

"Which plays hell on "Imaging and resolution"!

 So unless you live in a basically, "New" home? And have all "Fairly" new audio gear? You may have an electrical "audio" issue. 

 OR, If you say, live in a new home but you are in love with that 1960's class A amp and pre?

But it always sounds horrid regardless of the CD you play or the contemporary source electronics used.

This, "may" be a cause...

 And it is not just audio gear that suffers. If you plug it in? It's going to have an issue. Because engineering parameters are engineering parameters.

How much of an issue? That depends....

But possible to fix. Easy to address at times also. But not always.

I need a break,  But have a bit more to say about this.

 But anyone taking issue with any of this? Please correct me. Like I said...

" I have been wrong before". I will be wrong again.

 And I am always up to learn more!

 

Viber,

I never said the larger Giandel is better in any way than a smaller one. Show me where I said that? Do you just make stuff up? The larger one can do more current (which most people do not need) and will turn on its fan at higher power. No one has A/Bed inverters that I know of except my friend who said the Ecoflow Pro beat the Goal Zero Yeti 3000 and both where trounced big time by the 5000 watt Giandel. That is all I know. We are in new territory here.....this is why I suggested you or someone buy both the large and small Giandel, the Bluetti and have a comparison party. You could A/B cheaper heavy AGM batteries with LifePo4 batteries, as well.

NO ONE KNOWS ANYTHING. How many brands of power amp are there? They all sound different.....How many brands of inverters are there? They all sound different. I personally would go for the Giandel because my friend (who has an $80K super revealing tweako system using super modified Apogee speakers) is the one that tested the inverters......he has great ears.....even listens to symphonies.....and jazz and pop and opera and rock and oldies, etc. Has both super vinyl system using Lithuanian field coil cartridge and r to r DAC.......every part in his system selected for sound.....and a very good room.

@viber6 fyi- i use 2 agm 100wh batteries with my  24v powerbright pure sine wave inverter for a total of 2400wh. I have 2 of these outlet setup’s on both sides of my home.  Each outlet set up cost me less than $500.  Already had solar set up to feed both controllers. (I could easily expand to 4 batteries if more time is needed.)

As for grounding, I buy an inexpensive audio power audio cord on amazon that has plugs that can be removed and take all 3 wires and connect them to the ground only on the male plug.  Then on the female plug I replace it with a spade to use it as a ground only connection.  Works well for my DIY ground boxes as well.

 

Yup....just buy a good three prong plug and put a large guage wire (12 gauge is fine) into the third pin only.....plug it into your strip or the wall and.....attach the other end of the wire to the inverter.  Any hardware store will have the plug and sell house wire by the foot....stranded wire is way easier to work with.

Thanks.  So I can take a ground wire and stick it into the 3rd pin in an unused outlet on a power strip?  Are there good ground wire ends with a thick single plug for a secure connection into the 3rd pin?

You can ground an inverter to any true ground point......like the third pin in your wall....There are some really old buildings that have no true ground....this is certainly not to code and probably illegal.  I lived in a building like that in Berkeley back in the 80s.....I had to put a clamp on the cold water pipe to ground my system.

sbayne, thanks.

tksteingraber, thanks for sharing your great results with the Powerbright. Which and how much battery storage (amp hr) are you using with your unit?  I looked on their site, clicked on the user manual for their lower quality modified sine wave inverters.  It seems that even lower battery power can still be used with any inverter, although the inverter will not provide as much time of use.  The dimensions and weight of the Powerbright modified sine wave inverters resemble the pure sine wave inverters of Giandel.  Of course, your pure sine wave inverter is stated to produce the purest quality from Powerbright.

Perhaps the most attractive package is from Giandel, with their 5000 watt hr pure sine wave inverter, fed by two Amperetime 200 amp hr batteries, for $2800.  Next attractive is to save $800 and get one Amperetime battery.  See the pictures from ricevs' site, tweakaudio.  The advantage of Powerbright is their east coast location with phone number.

Right now I first have to figure out how to ground the inverter from my 3rd floor apartment.  Giandel says grounding is essential for safety reasons.  

Viber and anyone/everyone else,

Why don’t you become the Inverter tester for the world. Buy the Bluetti, buy a 2000 watt Giandel, buy the 5000 watt Giandel and a couple of the 200 amp hour batteries.and a charger and OFC battery cables.....and do the tests on your system and let everyone in the world know......you can try the stock versus OFC cables, one versus two batteries....footers under the inverter, etc.

You can afford it. I bet you have that much on a credit card (maybe $4500 total?). Whatever you do not like, you return for a refund. I would do this.....but I have no credit/money......You have money....you can do this. Why are we always waiting for someone else to do things for us?......It’s way more fun to be on the leading edge.....be an explorer....have some fun.

The Bluetti does not give you access to full power on any outlet. The Giandel has a terminal block that you can hook up a Furutech outlet to, a power strip to or hardwire a cable or whatever for full output. The Giandel also allows unlimited power upgrades (as much battery as you want) and can use whatever battery you like including just trying it with a car battery......way more flexible.

Of course you can start small (for the toe dabblers).......just buy a 2000 watt Giandel for a lttle over $300 and hook it up to a car battery......if you like that then buy the 5000 watt Giandel and if that sounds better than return the 2000 watter......then get a single 200 amp hour LifePo4 battery and compare to your car battery......then try another battery......etc.......come on.....you know you want to try this.....yes, you do.

viber6 - I run my total system from it. I've never tried it with just the front end equipment. The total draw, including my amp, is only 450 watts so the AC200MAX is barely breaking a sweat (it has a 4,800 watt pure sine wave inverter with a 2200 watt maximum load). I've never heard the fan kick on. I would NOT say greater resolution, transparency or more HF extension in the audiophile sense. I would say a more open but immediate sound coming from a completely black background. 

The only audiophile reviews I've seen are regarding the Stromtank units but they are way out of my budget. The reason I've suggested Hobotech reviews is he really puts the inverter to the test and shows you his results in real time. The most important part, to me, is when he determines if it will hold a perfect sine wave at 120 volts/60Hz into its maximum rated load. I personally wouldn't buy a unit where the voltage drops under full load. His review told me the AC200MAX holds the voltage and sine wave for OVER 2200 watts. Hobotech also does a test where he shows the noise coming out of a small Peavey guitar amp. Many cheaper inverters add fairly significant noise to the Peavey guitar amp test. The Bluetti AC200MAX does not. There are some very good units out there now a days. I'm not sure that was true even a couple years ago. The technology is really moving along with portable electric.  

sbayne,

Thanks for your sonic impressions of your Bluetti AC200MAX.  Greater clarity, resolution, HF extension in addition to more open soundstage?  Are you using power amps with it, as well as your front end?  If so, did you find total system benefits greater than just using the Bluetti with the low powered front end?  Are the benefits at least as great as getting a more transparent preamp or power amp?

Hobotech's factual info is useful, but he doesn't describe audiophile benefits.

sns - agreed. Vinnie Rossi has also used batteries in his products over the years. The portable lithium ion phosphate battery and inverter technology has made some significant advances in recent years and the price for quality units keeps going down. Construction workers, Campers, EV owners etc are starting to realize the potential for these. I'm sure it won't be long before more and more audiophiles start using them in their systems.  

Funny you ask this @scott22. I long saw potential of going off grid, so back in 1998 I purchased N.E.W. DCA66, 60wpc class A SS amp that ran off 4 lead acid wheelchair batteries. Batteries supplied the entire 60 watts, charger, everything self contained within separate battery case and amp enclosure.

 

I also have Merlin VSM-MM, BAM module runs off four 9V batteries. At one point had plans and schematic to run off 12v car battery with  far greater filtering and storage capacitance within power supply.

 

Surprised batteries have not become more ubiquitous within audiophile circles.

ricevs,

For an introductory battery/inverter system without the Puritan filter, how about the Giandel 5000 inverter with only ONE Amperetime 200 amp-hr battery?  You say the larger inverter is better than the smaller 2000 inverter, not only for generating more power, but also for lower distortion.  Obviously I would be limited to half the power capabilities of the larger inverter by using 1 battery instead of 2, but I first want to establish the sonic qualities of the battery + Giandel 5000 alone, which I could do at medium power and for shorter periods of time.  If I confirm what your friend has found, I could feed the inverter into my Shunyata Denali 6000 which has greatly improved my sound on its own.  Then of course, I could add the 2nd battery for full capability.  Basic cost of two 200 amp-hr batteries--$1600, plus Giandel 5000 inverter--$900, plus 40A battery charger--$250, plus OFC battery cables--$30.  Total--$2780.  Save $800 with just one battery--$1980 to get started, for the same quality sound but with half the power capability?  Still, similar power capabilities as the Stromtank 2500!

So can the battery option be built into an amp? Outlet power comes into the amp and is stored in batteries which are then used to drive the system. Similar to amps that play class A for the first 10 watts then A/B after that. So internal batteries are used for first say 50 watts then over that unfiltered outlet power takes over? Just wondering.

Here is another reviewer I like regarding these products. Good tests and to the point.

 

richopp,

I didn't see the story in the Palm Beach Post.  Which section is it in?

Thanks for confirming and for the link! Awesome.  

If you try that stuff in FL you will be put in jail.

https://palmbeachpost-fl.newsmemory.com/?token=ae07a0734da4c7daa6a8cce65de0dc46_62efcab6_4c91c4f&selDate=20220807

FPL (along with big sugar--you know, otherwise known as "middle-class heroin") runs our state and has the gov in their pocket.  THUS, any attempt to disconnect from FPL will result in criminal charges.

We "love" our gov--who else has the guts to pick a fight with a cartoon mouse, I ask you?--and you will too (OR ELSE!) when he becomes the dictator of the US--uh, sorry, our next "president."

Think I am kidding?  Just check back in a couple of years...

Enjoy!

sjsfiveo and grannyring - yes, I've made this point a number times. You must make sure the inverter produces 120v at 60Hz under full load. Not every inverter can do that. Some of them are even designed to reduce voltage as the load increases! So be careful. Watch the YouTube video review I attached. Hobotech is an excellent source.  

Bill - here is his review on the AC300 you are considering.

 

Scott, could you confirm you are getting 120v off your BLUETTI? 

Good question and point! 

The PS Audio Power plants have a scope and analyse the incoming power.  I would really like to see the THD numbers out of the inverter.  the sine wave coming off the grid in San Diego has 4-5% THD.

Just a heads up about the portable lithium ion batteries units most of their inverters are 110 volts. I ve owned a BLUETTI I measured the voltage output at 109 volts. Make sure the piece of electronic you're running off the battery can run on that low voltage or you can potentially do some damage. My Nagra classic dac would run off as low as 100 volts same as my Aurender streamer. My new Lampizator DAC needs 115v and I contacted Don Sachs about my pre and amp and he told me he sets up his electronics to run on as low as 113 to 114 volts for heavy load days as he called it. I've found very few battery' units that have 120v inverters and if you draw over a certain number of watts (400 with the BLUETTI) the fan kicks in and is loud. 

I have used different batteries, my electrician-Audiophile friend set me up using a 

30 amp outlet using gold copper outlets , a special Siemens pure silver breaker from Germany ,awg10 Copper wire, and a 4 wire  and  common ground ,the other insulated isolated ground on its own seperate copper buzz bar ,it’s dead quiet a much blacker silent background,day or night .

Why invert at all?

Your audio system (except possibly the motors for turntable, tape, and player), runs on DC. You just need a DC-DC converter, which are almost noiseless. Better yet, you may find equipment that runs on your house DC.

Of course, this means surgery on your electronics to bypass that noisy power supply. But it's minor surgery, suitable for DIY.

I use battery power for my phono / pre, and am thinking about converting to batteries for amps as well. As it is, my system is black - and SMOOTH. No sharp edges here.

Batteries forever!

It’s a nice!

Yeah, Ric seems to like that Giandel inverter.

http://tweakaudio.com/EVS-2/Inverter_Power.html

Think I'm going to experiment with @ricevs  setup with Giandel inverter, easy and cheap for initial experiment.

tksteingraber - thanks for sharing your setup and sound test results. I'm guessing you have a pretty good inverter based on the amazing change in sound quality.

Anker 757 for me.

No big deal as far as audible differences since my feed is the first from the transformer and runs through a PS Powerplant.

Obviously using for a small house needs a larger unit. This is what I have or maybe 1 gen newer. 4.5k. 
 

Schneider Electric Conext XW PRO Inverter/Charger

$4,397.00

Schneider Electric Conext XW Pro Inverter/Charger

Schneider Electric Conext XW PRO Inverter/Charger quantity

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SKU: I-SC-XWPRO6848

Categories: 48V, Sinewave Inverters

Tags: 120/240VAC, 48V, grid-tied, off-grid, Sine wave inverter

I didn't purchase the Rockpals for audio system, just thought I might give it a try since in house. I'll have to take closer look at Bluetti, Stromtank is certainly pricey.

Nice option.... certainly a better value than the expensive regenerators and you get multi-functionality with portability.  It would be fun to do a side by side SQ comparison with PS Audio PP.  I have a solar back up outlet connected to 2 AGM batteries with a 24v Powerbright 1000W Pure Sine Wave Inverter feeding it. Not sure how good the inverter might be. A week ago I decided to hook it up (with a 25ft 14 ga extension cord) to my main system for kicks and wow that was an amazing change. Black background, clarity, sound stage, separation etc..... AC is still very good just very different in a good way.  Now I I have to figure out how to run romex and install an outlet to my system ughhhh.  

The Bluetti AC300 inverter and a couple B300 batteries would be excellent!