sns - no doubt parts quality is important especially the inverter. The cheaper ones can't maintain a consistent voltage under load and the sine wave begins to breakdown. Obviously, avoid those. There are some excellent online reviews since these new lithium ion portables are big amongst the camper/RV crowd.
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Thanks dpop. What you are saying for utility powered AC circuits makes total sense (dedicated lines, balanced power, isolated grounds and neutrals, etc) @ricevs and others have really done the yeoman's work on trying to find a reasonably priced but high-end battery powered solution which is what I'm focused on for now.
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@veroguy - Ok, makes sense why the fan doesn't kick-on for over 4 hours of use - 90 watts is nothing for the AC300/B300. Yep, the MUON is excellent. I went with a linear power supply for my router and was surprised with the improvement in sound quality. Great idea to run your router off the Bluetti.
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Yeah, I’ll probably disconnect the fan if turns out to be a continual problem.
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ricevs and theaudioamp - How about some middle ground? Can we agree inverters need more measurements (such as THD) BUT that does not invalidate what we are hearing? If you can't agree to that please move on.
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Right. Same concept as the PS Audio PP since it generates a 120v/60HZ pure sine wave from its inverter - except mine is coming off a battery.
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jbs - Yep, totally agree the quality of inverter is very important. I’m just going by the numerous reviews of the Bluetti on the internet. The link I provided is probably the most thorough and indicates the inverter is very quiet. I’ve detected no extra noise.
theaudioamp - makes sense its not converting from DC.
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Check out the hobotech reviews on YouTube. All inverters are not the same. Rockpals has gotten some fairly bad reviews for inverter noise and voltage stability, sorry. Bluetti and Ecoflow make quality units but they cost more. Mine was $1,800.
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The Bluetti AC300 inverter and a couple B300 batteries would be excellent!
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tksteingraber - thanks for sharing your setup and sound test results. I'm guessing you have a pretty good inverter based on the amazing change in sound quality.
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Bill - I’m sure you will do your own research but just make sure to buy one that more than meets your system power requirements and can handle the initial power surge of your amp (not sure what your current system is). The inverter should remain stable at 120v and 60HZ even under full load. Also look for one with heat sinks in addition to just cooling fans - to keep the fans off under normal usage. Bluetti seems good to me but there are probably better ones out there. Scott
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Here is another reviewer I like regarding these products. Good tests and to the point.
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sjsfiveo and grannyring - yes, I've made this point a number times. You must make sure the inverter produces 120v at 60Hz under full load. Not every inverter can do that. Some of them are even designed to reduce voltage as the load increases! So be careful. Watch the YouTube video review I attached. Hobotech is an excellent source.
Bill - here is his review on the AC300 you are considering.
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sns - agreed. Vinnie Rossi has also used batteries in his products over the years. The portable lithium ion phosphate battery and inverter technology has made some significant advances in recent years and the price for quality units keeps going down. Construction workers, Campers, EV owners etc are starting to realize the potential for these. I'm sure it won't be long before more and more audiophiles start using them in their systems.
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viber6 - I run my total system from it. I've never tried it with just the front end equipment. The total draw, including my amp, is only 450 watts so the AC200MAX is barely breaking a sweat (it has a 4,800 watt pure sine wave inverter with a 2200 watt maximum load). I've never heard the fan kick on. I would NOT say greater resolution, transparency or more HF extension in the audiophile sense. I would say a more open but immediate sound coming from a completely black background.
The only audiophile reviews I've seen are regarding the Stromtank units but they are way out of my budget. The reason I've suggested Hobotech reviews is he really puts the inverter to the test and shows you his results in real time. The most important part, to me, is when he determines if it will hold a perfect sine wave at 120 volts/60Hz into its maximum rated load. I personally wouldn't buy a unit where the voltage drops under full load. His review told me the AC200MAX holds the voltage and sine wave for OVER 2200 watts. Hobotech also does a test where he shows the noise coming out of a small Peavey guitar amp. Many cheaper inverters add fairly significant noise to the Peavey guitar amp test. The Bluetti AC200MAX does not. There are some very good units out there now a days. I'm not sure that was true even a couple years ago. The technology is really moving along with portable electric.
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He joined July 28, 2022 and has over 220 posts.
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To summarize what I have learned by taking my system to battery power:
1. Make sure to buy one that more than meets your system power requirements and can handle the initial power surge of your amp.
2. The inverter should produce a pure sine wave and remain stable at 120v and 60HZ even under full load.
3. Look for one with heat sinks in addition to just cooling fans - to keep the fans off under normal usage.
IF ANYONE ELSE HAS GONE TO A BATTERY POWERED SYSTEM PLEASE CHIME IN. I know Ric has and I appreciate everything he is doing to spread the word and help others if this something they are interested in. Like he has said many times I hope we are here to learn and have a cordial dialogue - not just argue.
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Here is a short video of the Bluetti powering my system. I took a shot of the power usage.
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viber6 - if you don’t understand the the advantages of the current LIFEPo4 batteries then do more research…….!! All of your concerns have been addressed.
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Pcrhkr - what do you use for “voltage regulation and filtering grid” to make it “fine”? “Quick peak load” you do realize I’m using a 2,000 watt inverter with a 450 watt load?……And lets see your thermal loss and noise calculations….I’m getting so sick of people who just want to argue.
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rbertalotto - Vinnie Rossi produced a whole series of audio products that ran off batteries (DC power). I owned one of his Red Wine Audio amps for a while. The LIO integrated was probably his most famous. Here is a video on it.
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pcrhkr - If you love your Furman power strip and Tripplight power regulator, then cheers!
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Update on using my Bluetti AC200MAX as my power source. I finally got the fan to kick-on! I was listening to hard rock and electronic bass heavy music at fairly loud volumes. I was about 50 minutes into the listening session and didn't hear the fan until between cuts. I repeated the last track and watched the power meter on the Bluetti. The surprising part was it never exceeded 450 watts which is basically what my system draws at idle. I'm guessing the extra quick power demands is what caused the fan to kick-on but those demands don't show on the power meter. I'm going to keep messing with it by first, trying to repeat what occurred and second, plugging the amp into the wall and everything else into the Bluetti then playing the same songs as before - to see if the fan kicks-on again or if it was just a one-off occurrence.
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clearthink - The US, like the rest of the world, uses AC power thanks to Nikola Tesla. And it's "fine" for 99% of the consumers. Its main problem, in my opinion, is it fluctuates anywhere between 110v - 120v depending the time of day and where you are located. Plus, it has all kinds of noise on it. Some audiophiles try to clean it with voltage stabilizers and conditioners. Using batteries (off the grid DC) converted to AC is another way to solve these issues which me (and ricevs and others) think hasn't gotten enough attention.
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haha, yes we can "keep our food refrigerated to safe temperatures" in the US
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ricevs - I totally agree especially with: "Do LIfePo4 batteries sound better than AGM? If you use more battery than you need will it sound better as more batteries equals lower impedance from the battery? And since all inverters will sound different.....which brand sounds the best? And does a 2200 watt Giandel sound the same as the 5000 watter? NO ONE KNOWS any of this until more experiments are done."
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WTF are you talking about? An 800lb flywheel UPS system? Once you crash from whatever high you’re on please just go to another thread.
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@theaudiomaniac - I know you are trying to invoke a response. You've been doing it for years.
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mijostyn - "Doing a whole system based on a total of 4800 watts of Class A power is another story." What do you have that requires 4,800 watts of power? For instance, my 50 watt Class A amp draws 300 watts and the rest of my system including a tube preamp, DAC, streamer, reclocker and various accessories draws about 150 watts - so a total system draw of 450 watts. 4,800 watts seems WAY too high.
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theaudiomaniac - you joined on August 18, 2022 and have 72 responses so far. Here we go again. Please leave.
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mijostyn - I just checked out your awesome system! Very nice. Your Parasound JC1 monoblocks draw about 250 watts each at idle and may draw up to 1,200 watts each at full power. So your amps, potentially, may draw 2,400 watts if completely maxed-out when used with your SoundLab speakers. There are definitely powerstations out there that can handle 2,000 - 3,000 watts off grid. The Bluetti EP500Pro, for instance, can handle that load and costs about $5,000. Not cheap but nothing as compared to the Stromtank offerings. As to getting "minimal benefit" for going off-grid for your whole system - all I can say is you need to hear it before passing judgment. The benefits are substantial.
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@veroguy - Great post. I certainly agree with your findings regarding sound quality. Both you and Ric use the Puritan conditioner so I’ll probably check that out in my system at some point. Good to see you can go 4 hours without the fan kicking on. How much power does your system use? Grannyring said he was looking at the AC300/B300 combo so I assume he would be interested too. Thanks
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@mijostyn - I’m sure those Atma-Sphere MA-2 monos are going to be incredible with the SoundLabs. A number of years ago, I heard the Majestic 845s paired with an earlier version of the MA2s and a Micro Seiki RX-5000/RY-5500 (I forget the tonearm & cartridge) it was fantastic! One of the top 5 systems I’ve ever heard.
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ricevs - That is going to be VERY interesting.
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Ric - how much power will your amp be drawing from the Bluetti AC300? The AC300 has a 3,000 watt/6,000 surge inverter and is great in @veroguy’s system but his amp only draws about 90 watts. Its also gotten excellent reviews from the non-audiophiles who push that inverter to the max using it for emergency/ solar power. Really looking forward to your conclusions.
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I have an Entech power line noise analyzer arriving on Monday. OCD Mikey used one in his videos regarding the Puritan conditioner and they are fairly cheap.
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@ricevs - Too bad it was actually the Bluetti AC200P which uses their older inverter design that according to Hobotech is much noisier than their current MAX series of inverters. The control software is also different. Anyway, I've been looking at your webpage again (great info there) and will probably build a Giandel 5000 system.
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Ok, here are results of the Entech Wideband Power Analyzer I recently got to check out the noise on my house power lines v. the Bluetti AC200MAX. Its rather humorous but remarkable! I assume if I got a Puritan 156 it would take the noise reading down to zero.
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That station’s radio tower is a couple miles away so fairly close. Interesting that particular RF goes away when on battery power. I assume my house wiring is acting like an big antennae. I just tried it in a few kitchen outlets and got great radio reception there too! haha
For $40 the Entech is enough for now. The Fluke analyzers, even used ones, are over $500. Good inverters have THD of less than 3%. The voluntary THD limit for US voltage is 5%. So, that might explain partially the result here. But, I agree we must listen to music and not just rely on a cheap Entech or expensive Fluke analyzer. Measurements are a tool not a result.
https://electrical-engineering-portal.com/essential-basics-of-total-harmonic-distortion
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@grannyring - as you know, I’ve been messing with audio gear for a long time but I had no idea of the amount of RF riding on my AC line throughout the house. Its the same result in every outlet I’ve tried that little Entech on!
@dpop - I’m always amazed of the amount knowledge and experience of individuals in the high-end audio community. THD of 0.3% in a radio station under the broadcast tower is very impressive! I see you just joined Audiogon on August 22, 2022. You should take a few minutes and post your system in the members Virtual System section with a few pictures.
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@dpop - Great. I don't think there is a limit.
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@curiosjim - I wouldn't listen while its charging even if it has "pass through" charging since some inverters will "click" like that and many times the fan will turn on. I assume the low hum is also the inverter. There is no doubt not all inverters are of the same quality even within brands. For instance, I wouldn't buy a Bluetti for home stereo use unless it part of their MAX series.
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I'm going to drop off this thread for a while. I do think there are advantages to going off the grid to power our home stereos and, obviously, I like the quality and ease of use of the Bluetti products but that doesn't mean there aren't better solutions out there. Do your research! I'm going to post this review of the AC500/B300S which is based on a 5,000 watt inverter. The review is 45 minutes long and if you don't want to watch the whole thing just go to 31:25 and 36:10 where he talks about the inverter quality and low noise. The AC500/B300S currently sells for $2,600. Peace, everyone.
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