Using battery power to go off the City's power grid

One word; "Super-neutral".

Well ok, it is in fact (two).

 

Damn I am long-winded at times!

This thread's contributors are killing me with how this power (Conundrum)? 

 Which most of us here have realized.

How you are approaching it.

I think what caught my eye here at first was the nomenclature and its use in this thread. And beginning with that. "Small detail though it is really". But, I have noticed over the years that this approach? It tends to pigeon-hole those in the process of advancements in this area.  It is a direction that I find, "As I have watched this several times".  It always ends with not much in the way of any "real" substantiative progress which one may then (Pass-on) to the next of us.   

It also has the tendency to be very frustrating for most. With a curve you could plot that I believe would always show that the ones invested most heavily in funds on this. Being those with the highest 'Anger Management" issues by the time they realize they have just wasted all of those capital gains on what becomes another audiophile rant, yelling 'Snake oil"! As they de-volve into,

 Followers of "Bose".

We all know how this horribly, debilitating disease "Audiophilia" ends...

"No-One" ever gets out alive!

So, we are just going to have to make the best of it! Anyway, if you have stuck with me though all of that!

I know a bit about what we call, "Power". Not everything, But a bit. And for a long, long time I have worked on this problem, "As time, and other pursuits have allowed".

Your group seems to be awfully "stuck" on that one object, The "Inverter".

I am not sure why though.

The largest problem I see with this thread though is in its initial posed question. Because I do not think that "And please correct me if I am wrong".  (Which happens with greater and greater frequency these days! I must admit)!

But I do not see or may have missed where much "Or any" research or serious study was done as to the "Why" you would need or want an inverter. And then, assoc. gear and etcetera.

Ok, "I guess I shall (start), as it were, "Here'!

Typically, we humans, live in "homes". "Homes" must have "Power". 

"Yes", as in "legally". (At least here in the USA...). OR, "No legally habitable address"! 

 That power must be, "certified". by a governmentally Regulated, "Utility Co.".

"You may go, "Off-Grid" after it is built. But until you do that?  You have to at some point have at minimum. A "business assoc." with a power utility co. 

And a power bill.

Most will keep this assoc. 

Now, I could begin here and pick just this apart for several hours.

'Yes really"! But I am trying to actually help with this problem, "Power" and boring you to death would be counterproductive. So just a few main points.

Geography. This will actually matter..

For many reasons, but for this conversation?

 It is mainly related to "Geology".

Where this relates to everyone here? "Grounding", Um, which then relates strongly too geology, "I.E.- Strata mineral make-up. heavy metals density per sq. yd., local aquifers available, depth and distancing. and on and on.

 But mainly grounding,

Your power, "Point of demarcation". And where you are located within your, "Local power grid". Also,-the quality of that infrastructure and it's age. And a hundred other things.

Much of this you do not, "You shall think at first" have any control over. 

But you DO!

In fact, the above mentioned, "Schneider Electric". They will help you by monitoring, evaluating, and even documenting irregularities -"ANY" PROBLEMS, In your home OR business electrical system. And they will do this...

FOR FREE! And also generate monthly, quarterly and annual reports for you.

All of which, by the way, are "Legally certified".

That fact "Could" be important to you at some point.

Nope, not kidding, "Call them". They make the majority of home "UPS" systems in the USA, "As far as I know anyway". I own seven or eight from them currently.

Schneider Elec.? It IS -"APC" corp.

Why might you have them do this? "Man-o-man, I feel like I have just begun a novel..."

I need you guy's to think on this next a little bit to understand the full ramifications of it.

When residential electrical installations "As in regulated in any way" began in the early 1900's. The household. single phase voltage was (100V). And all devices designed for use in home was meant for a system providing a nominal, (100V). (+-5%). The 1930's? = (105V). By the 1950's that was up 110V. 1970's = 115V.

In the 1990's it was officially raised again to the current 120V. (Nominal +-5%)

That (+-5%)  value is very important. "Especially" if you are an avid "Audiophile" and can hear differences in your gear. 

Beyond that (+-5%) tolerance? Almost nothing electronic will work as designed. "It simply cannot"! What gear appears to work is being taxed very hard and will fail prematurely. And the internal "clock" or clocking? Will be way off too. A 5% Voltage irregularity typically yields a (8-9%) phasing discrepancy and more.

"Which plays hell on "Imaging and resolution"!

 So unless you live in a basically, "New" home? And have all "Fairly" new audio gear? You may have an electrical "audio" issue. 

 OR, If you say, live in a new home but you are in love with that 1960's class A amp and pre?

But it always sounds horrid regardless of the CD you play or the contemporary source electronics used.

This, "may" be a cause...

 And it is not just audio gear that suffers. If you plug it in? It's going to have an issue. Because engineering parameters are engineering parameters.

How much of an issue? That depends....

But possible to fix. Easy to address at times also. But not always.

I need a break,  But have a bit more to say about this.

 But anyone taking issue with any of this? Please correct me. Like I said...

" I have been wrong before". I will be wrong again.

 And I am always up to learn more!

 

Make your own batteries. Easy.

 

When calculating, it is advisable to take into consideration the device (IR) value. And "Not" because of the "Initial Rush" of power to the device. As most would think to apply this number.

For audio applications, the gears accumulative (IR) value is actually a good indicator of its overall needs in order to perform at the highest possible resolution. And also, why some other systems sound like "mud".

And why shopping for something in the middle? Yields that same result.

In a nutshell you have what is a, "UPS" system right?

 Just "tailored" to your rig's requirements. But your numbers are maybe off a bit. "Maybe"? Maybe not.

There is a rule used when using "any" inverters, UPS systems and etc.

 That is;

"The UPS must be able to handle full load while also charging the battery system post an electrical outage".

 I understand the terminology is incorrect for this audio application. But everything else really is the same when designing what is really just a "mini-substation" for a home's audio system. "With an (Isolated-dedicated) grounding electrode" which is Not tied into the homes primary electrical system and/or grounding electrode. This grounding topology, "Which is designed to NOT cause any ground-loop effect, or other types of problems". This can be more than problematic if not done correctly.

So, there is a "way" to follow to do this correctly and in the best manner.  And "they" account for most of what I have learned to account for. Except for one step that "I" insist on doing also. Which is using toroidal isolating transformers, Isolated for each circuit. Located near the device/s for use. And sometimes more than one per circuit! Thats a lot of copper! But soo worth it!

Is anyone here familiar with the "UPS" systems that use the really big concrete flywheels? Big like (800+Lbs.) for the flywheel itself? And with a dia. close to (4') and over 18" wide??

This type of "UPS", It looks like two large, full-sized fridges' put together. In total it weighs about (3000Lbs.). The flywheel is always turning. Powered normally off of the utility power. Not really spinning to fast. Maybe at (450) Rpm's. 

But that was (20) years ago...

450 Rpm's? "Or so I thought". Now it's more like (36,000 Rpm's) with a (98%) power efficiency!

In this modern power topology. The way I have used these systems....

And I post this so that maybe this will shed some light on what is going on as far as this goes. Hopefully this helps some of you.

But this is the future. As in, The "immediate" future for all homes. And this at a "100% install level" and this is coming very, very fast. You have to admit that our infrastructure is a mess and the only way to guarantee good, reliable and clean power? At least for twenty years or so? Starts with an "UPS", which is expandable until you are off grid as needed. "Like adding modules", easy!

The way this works is: "And this is JUST my exp. with it". My home is a bit different like I said above with the grounding and isolation but other than that? The same.

 If you have not tried this? You will never understand the benefits. My PC's run better and last longer. No more hard-drive failures. Lighting almost never has to be changed out, "bulbs etc.". And if it has electronic components? It works better and much longer! And my 'rig' has never sounded better!

I use a "Battery-Free" system. "Yes", they exist.

But, this is how a typical system works. This is like those I saw and also worked with all the time before I retired. And can be purchased "used" now. "They all look new because they were always kept in those IT closets and other such places".

"You may need to change out some bearings and batteries. But after that? Another (20) years of use, and more is left in them.

So,

ALL power in a given area goes through the "UPS" system. Which on an avg. day has a load of maybe 50X the avg. American household. The Idea is that (Any) disruption to the supply voltage has one of two ways that it is always supplying a "Nominal" voltage of clean power. "Low voltage situations are handled by this flywheel which picks up the entire load using the kinetic energy as DC and also inverting to AC any other voltages as needed. In "Over-Voltage" situations, it just switches to battery power. Either internal or external. And as it is being transferred over to the "UPS" batteries OR, flywheel. Once the auto-transfer switches have all engaged and pulled over. The "UPS" then goes to all battery power. But, this shuts down anything deemed, "Non-critical", So basically anything that is not a computer or cooling and ventilation plus fire-safety is shut down because the transfer switches simply do not feed it. .

And the only batteries this system uses. Which for that (good sized) power load take up only about the same room or less than a medium sized fridge. They are only rated for the avg. load "Remember that is explicitly, computers, servers, routers and etcetera", good for about (15) minutes. But the flywheels stored kinetic energy? Another two hours and thirty-eight minutes! :"The generators are supposed to be up by then". 

 

 

Man-0-man, The (800Lb. flywheel) was there really as simply an example of what is out there. And I guess that most of you do not have the capabilities that I happen to have either. And you would be "very" surprised at what some people "re-furbish" at home these days. Or just design/build from scratch. There isn't too much a body couldn't find a way to produce. Having simply a 'Bridgeport" mill and a decent 4" tooling lathe...

But it sounds like a couple of you already know way more about this subject "And everything else too, apparently". So much more than "I" could ever possibly even fathom to know the lofty depths of.

So, I shall leave you to it.

"Aim small". "Miss small"!

Good luck!

I just showed up because of something I recently was read into. Which is very important to this discussion. "Or shall be shortly".

So if you are on the edge and about to make an investment in this type of gear?

 You "may" want to hold off for a few months...

Seriously!

And everyone here will know what I am talking about when it happens....

It is just that big.

Once "Released".

But I cannot say anything at this time.

Anyways, Have any of you noticed just how nifty

those new "Solid State" computer hard- drives are for PC's?

Simply '"amazing" aren't they?!

Yeah that "solid state" hard-drive tech will change everything! 

 

(Now I can sleep)