Using battery power to go off the City's power grid
I'm using a Bluetti AC200MAX 2,200 watt expandable power station to take my system off the city's power grid. It runs off a lithium ion phosphate battery with a 4,800 watt pure sine wave inverter. My total system only takes about 450 watts so I have never heard the fan kick on - it is totally silent. The music comes from a completely black background, with a huge soundstage that sounds very natural. I know that Ric Schultz has talked about these types of setups and there is a very expensive Stromtank battery system that is marketed to audiophiles. Anyone else tried this type of setup in their audio system?
I'm still off grid but I've taken the inverter out of the hi-fi system. Everything is powered off DC and there is no AC involved. I decided to remove the AC because I wanted to see how good the system can sound without AC gremlins like AC ground noise. Also, getting off AC allowed me to sell most of my pricey AC cables and AC conditioner. I'm still using quality DC cables and DC power conditioning.
As a consequence of this decision, I'm limited to components that only accept DC. Fortunately, there are great gear out there that run off DC directly. DACs I've tried include the Weiss DAC205 and Ferrum Wandla. Headphone amps include the Ferrum Oor and Geshelli Labs Erish 3. The Singxer SU 6 acts as the USB to I2S converter. Streamers include the Lumin U1 Mini or a Mac Mini, both converted to accept 12V DC. The speaker amp is a high end car audio amp the Mosconi Pro 4/30 that is Class A/AB. It's a four channel but I bridge the channels to run stereo. The amp powers Magnepan LRS+ speakers.
It all sounds pretty good. It's in the same league as the best AC systems I've put together. But by far it is the best bang for the buck system I've assembled.
In fact you have now If I understand well two separated battery inverter system
- One for DAC ,preamp ,Amp with Shunyata Typhon
- The second one for Lumin streamer , switch etc...
Since I have a friend with a Denali , I will do the test with this conditionner .
For the audio system, I have just one battery and one inverter, the Giandel 5000W. The Giandel 5000W has one high current terminal and 4 normal US outlets. The conditioner is connected to the high current terminal and one of the normal outlets powers the HDPlex 300W power supply that feeds DC to the Lumin streamer, switch, etc.
I technically have a second inverter connected to the battery but it powers the HT system and is not part of my audio system. I experimented with the second inverter for the audio system but didn’t find it beneficial, at least not in the way I had things configured. I may experiment more with the second inverter in the future.
I haven't mentioned grounding recently but that is something I do with the system. Grounding an inverter is different than grounding with a house AC line and different types of inverters may call for different ways to ground. The Giandel manual says to ground to the car/vehicle or to earth. The audio system's ground is grounded to the house AC ground with a Puritan Ground Master. I use another Ground Master on one of the isolated SPDIF connectors on the Lumin streamer and I also use another Ground Master on the ground pin of the Lumin streamer. In the near future, I may decide to install a grounding rod outside and connect all these Ground Masters to this rod. I think this would benefit the system. I won't know until I try.
Electric power can be distributed over hundreds of miles with minimal losses.
The line feeding my house originates at the substation as a 12,470/7,200 volt wye circuit. That is a very common distribution scheme in the US, and it’s a big step up from the old delta circuit that my utility previously used. Either way, you don’t want that 7,200 VAC anywhere near your system.
My audio system uses dedicated, derated 20A lines and my utility - which is not a very good one, by the way - has no trouble delivering power on demand. If there is any doubt about your utility’s ability to deliver sufficient power, a "beast of burden test" will settle it. You would need a massive bank of batteries and capacitors to come even close to delivering the power a proper utility offers.
Shunyata Research believes in what is called Dynamic Transient Current Delivery. Another audio forum describes DTCD in more details and I won't repeat the whole concept here. From what I understand of it, power supplies pull current from the crests of the sinewave. So the rectifiers are only open during a small part of the sine wave. When the rectifiers are open, the instantaneous current that flows through to the power supply's storage capacitors can be 10 to 20 times the average current. For example, if an amp draws 10 amps average, the instantaneous current can be 100 or 200 amps. This doesn't blow the breakers because the average current is still below the line's rated current of 20A. For the power supplies, it's best to get the number for the instantaneous current to be as high as possible. Upgrading from a 15A line to a 20A line, using audiophile outlets, using audiophile power cables, are all actions that would increase instantaneous current.
The point I'm trying to make here is that one has to look at what is immediately connected to the audio system's power supplies. This is the power cables, the power conditioner, the wall outlet, the 20A line, etc. The quality of all those things would affect the instantaneous current. In my decade in the hobby, I've found all of these things to be very important. It's not just theory to me since I've proven it to myself over and over. So I'm not really talking about total power or maximum average current. I'm talking about instantaneous current to the power supplies which can be very different in two power delivery systems even when those two systems can provide the same average current.
So how does all of this tie back to batteries and inverters? Here are the positives I see that can help increase instantaneous current for a battery/inverter. The total length of wiring from the battery and through the inverter is very short. I'm using the high current terminals of the Giandel inverter which I believe can provide 41.67A of average current. Generally, the higher the average current, the higher the instantaneous current. It's difficult for me to know for sure if these qualities actually give my audio system more instantaneous current versus my previous 20A line. Shunyata makes a device they call a DTCD Analyzer that can be used to measure but I don't necessarily want to buy one, assuming they would sell one to me. I had to follow my ears on this one.
@sirnui , thank you again for all the detailed information you are writing
I have tried Shunyata’s top of the line conditioners (Everest on down) on a battery/inverter and it makes a big difference. I have also tried Puritan conditioners and they make a noticeable difference as well. Value wise, the Puritan conditioners are hard to beat but I’ve found Shunyata TOTL to be better than Puritan TOTL. I can recommend both.
Yes , the Everest and Denali have very good reputation as line conditioners , and they are very effective at avoiding pollution between components of the audio system which is by the way some time a stronger pollution than from the AC line .
Cost wise the puritan is 1/3 of the Denali and 1/5 of the Everest therefore hard to beat .
In fact you have now If I understand well two separated battery inverter system
- One for DAC ,preamp ,Amp with Shunyata Typhon
- The second one for Lumin streamer , switch etc...
Since I have a friend with a Denali , I will do the test with this conditionner .
Any power reservoir from the susbstation needs to travel many feet and it will have to go through transformers and the house wiring and electrical outlets likely rated for 15A. The audio system is not seeing anything close to what the substation can offer for power ... I have an academic background in EE. I have a BS and MS in Computer Engineering ... Theory is nice but actually applying theory is better.
Electric power can be distributed over hundreds of miles with minimal losses.
The line feeding my house originates at the substation as a 12,470/7,200 volt wye circuit. That is a very common distribution scheme in the US, and it’s a big step up from the old delta circuit that my utility previously used. Either way, you don’t want that 7,200 VAC anywhere near your system.
My audio system uses dedicated, derated 20A lines and my utility - which is not a very good one, by the way - has no trouble delivering power on demand. If there is any doubt about your utility’s ability to deliver sufficient power, a "beast of burden test" will settle it. You would need a massive bank of batteries and capacitors to come even close to delivering the power a proper utility offers.
... a few key things that a powerful battery/inverter system offers over the average 15A wall outlet. It’s separated from what can be a noisy grid ...
And replaces it with a potentially noisy inverter.
The inverter will have noise of its own so it comes down to the lesser of two evils for noise. Even in the suburbs where I live, the data is telling me my Giandel inverter has slightly better AC Total Harmonic Distortion than the wall AC. I use to own a power conditioner that showed AC THD.
It can offer more dynamic power (from a large bank of capacitors?) ...
Greater than the dynamic power available from your local electric utility, which uses banks of capacitors at the substation? I don’t think so.
Those substations are not a few feet away from the audio system. Any power reservoir from the susbstation needs to travel many feet and it will have to go through transformers and the house wiring and electrical outlets likely rated for 15A. The audio system is not seeing anything close to what the substation can offer for power. But in my case with the Giandel 5000W and using the High Current terminals, my ceiling is not limited to 15A. Doing the math, 5000W / 120V = 41.67A. Now, max power is not really what I'm going for but it's beneficial to have wires and circuits that were designed to handle that kind of power. This can come into play during moments of sudden and quick power draws. I once had Kii Three active speakers hooked up to the battery/inverter system. They were not class A monoblocks but not once did I feel the power was lacking when I turned up the volume.
... it can offer a better AC sinewave (better THD) to power supplies that were designed with perfect AC sinewaves in mind.
A good power supply doesn’t require "perfect AC sinewaves."
I didn't use the word "require". I generally believe if dirt goes in, then dirt comes out. If a clean AC sinewave goes into a power supply, then clean DC power comes out. If a jagged AC sinewave goes into a power supply, the DC signal out would likely have artifacts(noise) from the jaggedness of the AC sinewave.
I have an academic background in EE. I have a BS and MS in Computer Engineering. I don't share this to say I know everything about electricity because I don't. I share this because the decisions I've made regarding how I deal with power in my audio system is helped from this EE knowledge or whatever is left of it. I don't do EE for a living. But above all, I try the gear and nothing beats actual experience. Theory is nice but actually applying theory is better.
This is just my educated opinion but I think there are a few key things that a powerful battery/inverter system offers over the average 15A wall outlet. It’s separated from what can be a noisy grid. It can offer more dynamic power (from a large bank of capacitors?) and it can offer higher maximum power (30 amps plus). Lastly, it can offer a better AC sinewave (better THD) to power supplies that were designed with perfect AC sinewaves in mind. I believe all of these points matter in a good sound system. Where the battery/inverter and 15A wall outlet may be at the same level is in the area of component to component noise. I’m talking about the noise from the streamer’s power supply travelling only a few feet across power cables to interact with the preamp’s power supply. This type of noise may be more problematic than anything on the grid. So this is where an excellent power conditioner comes into play. Some well designed power conditioners tackle this type of noise and they tend to offer outlet to outlet isolation at some level. I have tried Shunyata’s top of the line conditioners (Everest on down) on a battery/inverter and it makes a big difference. I have also tried Puritan conditioners and they make a noticeable difference as well. Value wise, the Puritan conditioners are hard to beat but I’ve found Shunyata TOTL to be better than Puritan TOTL. I can recommend both.
I used the Venom V16 for source and Denali V2 for amp because the the Denali V2 has the QR/BB technology that helps with amps. With that said, for cost reasons and simplification I’ve sold both conditioners and now I’m using a single Shunyata Typhon T2 for DAC, preamp, and amp. I also have a pair of DC power supplies connected directly to the inverter and they power the Lumin streamer and other auxiliary devices such as network devices.
I bought a Zavfino Silver Dart power cable and I modified one end to connect to the high current terminals on the Giandel inverter. On the other end I installed a Furutech 20A plug. I prefer this cable over the modified Furutech DPS 4.1 power cable I was using earlier.
There is always risk with anything electrical. Even when everything is plugged into the wall there are power surges and lightning strikes that can overwhelm any audio system. One reason I use a Shunyata power conditioner is because it has an electrical breaker built in to mitigate surges. Regarding the inverter, in my almost two years of going off grid, none of my audio equipment was ever damaged. I did however manage to damage the inverter and the battery charger. For the Giandel inverter, one should never plug and unplug equipment with the inverter on. I think I damaged it by doing this in a moment of haste. I was able to get a new 5000W inverter under warranty. I now always power all components off, then the conditioner, then the inverter, when I need to reconfigure the AC setup. Giandel they actually say to remove the positive cable from the battery. After making the change, I would power on the inverter first and then verify the AC voltage is back to 120V (US) before I power on the conditioner or any component. Regarding the Progressive Dynamic battery charger, I must’ve crossed the polarities at some point because the reverse polarity fuses blew. Fortunately, the fix was simply replacing the fuses which is not costly. The Ampertime battery has been very solid this whole time. It always runs cool.
For what it's worth, here is a listing of features under "Safety and Stability" from the Giandel website:
@sirnui , thank’s for all the good feedback about using battery power .
I have one concern about using these giandell inverter .
Is there any risk for the equipment plugged into these inverters ? I have expensive audio equipment and I will hate to have them damaged by the inverter which cost a fraction of these equipment .
Also I see that you are using shunyata filtering after the inverter . Why a venom 16 on source component and not a Denali .
If anyone is still using their battery setups, please continue to share how the experience is after some time has passed. Any hiccups or issues to note, or are things solid?
I recently purchased a Goal Zero 1500 and was impressed with what it did to my front end. I was so impressed that I read a lot and decided to take the plunge with the Giandel 5000W Inverter and a single 5120Wh battery, this way I can plug my power amp in as well, something I can’t do with the Goal Zero as the fans kick in after only a few minutes. There’s some nice prices right now and the battery even allowed for a military discount (8%) on top of the sale, very cool!
Once I get the new setup in place, I’ll return the Goal Zero. It’s pretty wild that for not much more money than the Goal Zero 1500, someone can get a 5000Wh setup by piecing together an inverter/battery/battery charger on their own.
I've personally doubled down on battery/inverter power. I just bought a Shunyata Venom V16 power conditioner and a Giandel 2000W pure sine wave inverter. All of my digital components will go to this new inverter/conditioner and the analog components will stay withe the Giandel 5000W inverter with the Shunyata Denali V2. The idea here is to keep all of the dirty digital garbage on its own "dedicated line" and away from the analog components like the amps. I plan to stay with one battery to power both inverters. I'm not going to back to wall outlets any time soon. I know too much.
This thread moved me to buy the bluetti ac200max so I want to share my experience with the Bluetti.
I have two audio setups and one of them is using the klipschorns. Because they are very sensitive I could hear the hissing noise coming out of them just as I turn on the amp ...but not each time...mostly on daytime, I discovered. After some reading I bought the EMI meter to check the interference on the wall AC. This small device does two things: expresses the noise in number (mV) and magnifies it through the built-in speaker. (Different one than used in this thread). In daytime my interference was around 1400mV and in the evening around 100mV especially when the airconditioning and some light dimmers are turn off.
So I ended up listening my music in the dark :) ... only in the evening because it sounded totally different then during the daytime. The sound came from a very black background with better bass and no fatigue on the highs...and almost no hissing from the klipschorns when the amp turns on. Wow. So I understood I had AC problem and I wanted a solution for daytime listening too.
I came across this thread and bought the bluetti ac200max immediately. I liked that better then other ac filtering solutions.
This is the case when I plug the EMI measuring device into the bluetti:
- the interference measured in mV is sky high: more 1500vM 😬
- But the build-in speaker is very quiet 😯 🤔?!! Actually it produces very high pitched noise that is much and much less audible because of its height I think. First time I see the numbers don't match the noise from this little speaker on the EMI meter.
What does that to the sound quality?
With bluetti it is definitely better then the wall socket when using it on daytime. But it's very difficult to say if that is the case when comparing it to nighttime listening when the interference on the line is very low. I just did 10 times A/B comparison with and without bluetti. Score on the grid line was 140mV. This is where my setup comes alive. Maybe it is even better then with the bluetti. But the difference is very small. But I don't have to pull a lot of devices from the socket and be sitting in dark :) So i think it's a keeper.
@sirnuiIt’s still good. I haven’t actually done much a/b comparisons, tbh, just letting the music flow lately, and honestly I’ve been using different headphones than what I’m used to for past week or so, so hard to tell. I did do a blind a/b test with my father, I let him hear A) wall power, then B) battery power, then a random power source A or B and he tried to discern which power source it was. Results were inconclusive, but he swore that wall power sounded more digital and battery power sounded more analogue, that was the basis of most of his statements.
One day recently my battery wasn’t used much so I didn’t charge it overnight, I left my DAC idling at about 20W all night and the next day I used the rig a bit. Well the battery died, I had to use wall power for the first time in a while and it sounded pretty good, but was a bit grungy sounding to me, like the signal was muddled with noise, less realistic. As soon as I got back to battery power it seemed more clear and bold with better attack.
The Giandel is good, it takes my rig to that next level where I’ve yet to feel the upgradeitis condition. Just sounds good.
I do NOT have any type of power conditioner after the inverter. I do have some aftermarket power cables, but they are DIY. Basically the build is AudioQuest Mistral bulk wire with Rhodium plated Viborg connectors for male and female. They made a small difference in the sound for me, more for ease of mind than anything else.
@khbaur330162How do you like it after some extended time?
For a short while I ran my power cables off the inverter/battery directly and I used very expensive noise reducing Shunyata power cables on the DAC and amp. The music sounded great but it wasn't as good as I knew it could be. I had heard better from my system. I sold the very expensive Shunyata power cables and I went back to using a power conditioner with the inverter/battery.
Are you using a conditioner and aftermarket power cables? I find them very beneficial even with an inverter/battery system.
I read this whole thread, but I don't remember any talk about people swapping out fuses in their Giandel inverters for audiophile grade fuses. Anyone think this could have a positive benefit?
Well, I finally wired up the Giandel inverter and AmpereTime battery, have yet to permanently install the charger on the M8 battery terminals, however I have charged the unit back up a couple times, it also doesn't seem to trip the overvoltage on the battery so the unit can be charged and used at the same time it would seem. I have not tried using the inverter when the battery is near max charge and also charging, so perhaps the voltage will trip the overvoltage at some point, but at this point in time, I doubt it.
Initial impressions:
1. Smooooooth.
2. (Extension of #1) Cuts down on sibilance, reduced glare/noise, more even tonal response (smidge darker) to my ears (less need for upper-mid EQ)
3. Sounds emanate from pure silence/blackness
4. Easier to pick apart track layers.
5. Bass remains clean yet also gains a bit of oomph in the breath region (analogue bass boost seems more effective) yet impact region seems perhaps slightly lower in respect to breath region compared to wall power with specific songs/sounds, so slight tradeoff yet on average there's overall more impact with Giandel imho.
6. Sounds more refined than Bluetti and EcoFlow somehow.
7. Low noise. I have to turn my amp up a little higher than Bluetti to hear any noise and noise heard is less comprehensive (simpler digital noise than Bluetti and lower in frequency).
8. Echoes travel further and are more apparent than wall.
9. Outer edges of audio image seem extended, less “tunnel vision effect”
10. Very organic texturing, not hyper-realistic like Bluetti, attack not overly etched out.
11. Treble “rings true”. Sounds very natural with impeccable tonal character and extension.
12. Sounds sweeter.
13. Easier to differentiate bass pitch.
14. Easier to differentiate background singers from one another.
While I do believe the Giandel is perhaps "more refined" than Bluetti EB120, I feel Bluetti may have been even MORE detailed at the expense of a little vibrancy/boldness of sound and bass impact. I would NOT say Giandel is in a completely different league than Bluetti, personally, I believe it's down to taste (and also DIY skills/your comfort level for DIY). Wiring one of these up seems super straight forward, but I would still like a professional to run through my DIY battery generator and point out any safety hazards and what not that they see. Hoping the electrician can come by sometime soon for me.
I like the Giandel, but there are things I miss about the Bluetti. Perhaps with closer A/B comparisons I'd realize I'm romanticizing the Bluetti a little bit as it was the first time I was able to hook up my DAC to battery power, but I returned Bluetti so no A/B's are possible. The Giandel is very good, it cuts deeper into the tracks than wall power, is more bold/vibrant than the wall or Bluetti, has very nice attack (better than wall and not overly done as Bluetti could be sometimes), smooth upper-mids and nice bass slam (better than wall or Bluetti). It overall does "more better" than Bluetti, imo, but something about the overly analytical presentation of the Bluetti is/was alluring to me.
For the cost of an EB120 or even less you can build your own battery generator with much higher Wattage capabilities, same Wh capacity too, yet you might lose out on USB, Solar Charging, and 12V appliance functionalities. Also should be noted the EB120 is very portable in a nice heavy duty case with handle, you could take it to the cabin, or tailgating very easily and it would pair fairly nicely with most equipment you'd wanna run (I believe it had 600W inverter, so as long as it's not a refrigerator, microwave, or high Wattage space heater/hotplate I think you'll be okay). Then again, my DIY battery generator uses LiFePo4 automotive pouch cells as opposed to Bluetti's Lithium Ion 18650 cells, so # of full charge cycles is a bit different and DIY might get better longevity down the road.
I believe the older Bluetti's such as EB120/EB150/EB240 have the potential to sound better than their newer generation generators given what I've read in this thread. You can get 240Ah with the EB240, 100% prebuilt with a charger for $999 direct from MaxOak on eBay with a warranty. Not a bad deal, and MaxOak seems like they have pretty decent customer service. But keep in mind you will have to build your own grounding adapter(s) to ground any three prong equipment you have...
@khbaur330162Good to see another person take the plunge. I too wished I had seen this thread before I bought the Ecoflow and Bluetti. With the Ecoflow I was able to return and get a full refund but with the Bluetti I was not and I lost a good chunk of change selling it to a family member.
Make sure to get the Giandel asvertised as Pure Sine Wave and FCC Approved. The 5000W is indeed overkill. If I had to do it again, I would’ve gone with two 1500w or 2000w inverters and two conditioners. I would’ve put my digital components on one set of inverter/conditioner and my analog components on the other set. Perhaps next year I incorporate another inverter into the system to separate my digital and analog components.
I do highly recommend a conditioner to go with the Giandel. I compared plugging my DAC and amp into the inverter directly versus plugging into the Puritan PSM 136 conditioner fed by the inverter and I preferred the conditioner. It wasn’t close. Puritan PSM conditioners give a lot if bang for the buck and it’s what I would recommend if a conditioner of this caliber is desired.
Hey, all. So you guys have intrigued me. I started out buying an EcoFlow River Pro with the extra battery thinking I'd run my headphone amp and DAC off of this. Well there was noticeable distortion. Like waves of fuzzy distortion with my amp. I was thinking maybe my amp's transformer was too close to the inverter so I moved things around and no change. I do not recommend EcoFlow products, this distortion completely ruined soft passages in music and made it unusable for YouTube videos or Twitch streams due to too much silence. Here you can hear the distortion, I recorded it with my miniDSP H.E.A.R.S. There ongoing noises is my microphone picking up random noise (not sure what) and also because I had to amplify the audio file in order for you to hear the distortion. What you're listening for is the periodicdistortion that happens every second or so. You can hear this clearly when music is quiet.
So fast forward to receiving the Bluetti EB120 (1,200Wh Lithium Ion battery bank). This is an older generation battery bank compared to the AC300 previously mentioned, afaik. No distortion with this unit, whisper quiet. As far as sonics (when music is playing) I think EcoFlow and Bluetti are on relatively equal footing, but the Bluetti might be a smidge better (bass less wooly and treble more extended and textured). Actually the bass when amp was powered off the wall was considerably more impactful and cleaner than EcoFlow River Pro, ime, but I have not yet compared Bluetti to the wall, I've only had the Bluetti for listening for maybe 30minutes so far. Btw, I have an iFi iPurifier for AC mains active noise cancelling on my audiophile wall outlet (no other power conditioning).
Then I found this thread. Gosh darn it... I've been spending money on pre-made units and of course DIY sounds better as is always the case it seems (DIY'ed headphones, DIY'ed interconnects, etc.) Seeing as my Bluetti is still within return window I am currently in contact with an electrician who is researching how to build a battery bank to code. He's never done anything like this so he is not 100% sure on all its in's and out's. I would wire it all up myself because it seems pretty straight forward, but I'd rather have it done by a professional. This electrician does electrical work on the side, his main job is fire fighting, so he's very safety oriented. He will make sure it's 100% safe for my setting.
This all being said, I do NOT need a Giandel 5000W inverter... Not even close. I need maybe 300W max, but I will probably splurge for 600W or 1,200W just because of my Watthour requirements. I have bought an Amperetime 12Vx100Ah battery. This will suit my needs fine. I need to power a DAC (25W max while powered on, 16W while off due to analogue board never turning off, only digital processing boards turn off unless unplugged from the outlet) and a 50wpc speaker amp which I use for headphones (35-40W draw not matter what as far as I can tell) making it 60-70W max draw for my system. So @70W the 1,200Wh Amperetime should give me 13.5 hours of runtime minimum assuming 80% inverter efficiency.
I have contacted Giandel asking for THD numbers on their various products and they reported that ALL of their inverters are rated for <3% THD and EMI suppression irrespective of model. So, at least according to them, and assuming THD and EMI are the important factors here, all of their inverters sound relatively the same. Their 600W inverter has dual removable fuses on the unit. I see no fuses on their 1,200W inverter, so I am hoping the electrician will allow me to buy the cheaper 1,200W unit (despite 2,400W surge capability and only 1,400W max battery output at full charge) and I can forego having to buy audiophile fuses for 600W unit. I will report back how Aperetime + Giandel compares to Bluetti EB120 which already seems fairly capable and very good sounding.
Btw, as a side note. I noticed Amperetime batteries were "un-returnable" through Amazon, yet on eBay the genuine Amperetime vendor allows returns, seller pays return shipping (free returns). Also it was cheaper by $10 through eBay with a vendor supplied coupon. Just an fyi for those looking into it. If you doubt the validity of battery powered, pure sine wave inverted hi-fi equipment then buy the battery from eBay, buy the inverter + charger from Amazon and you basically have 30 days to build and try everything out with 100% moneyback guarantee.
Cheers guys, thanks for all the info. Will be interesting to make these battery + inverter comparisons for myself. Hoping you're all correct about Giandel! Hopefully we can get some comparisons between inverters in the future, maybe there's cheaper or even better sounding options out there?
I'm still enjoying the Giandel 5000 and the Amperetime Battery. I'm also happy with the Progressive Dynamics 80A charger. The fan noise on this charger is lower than the Amperetime charger I had before. The Leviton 20A smart outlet is also doing a great job of charging the battery twice a day.
My previous power conditioner can detect the THD of the AC. On the Giandel, THD is 2%. On the Bluetti AC300, THD was 4%. Both are Pure Sine Wave inverters but the Giandel 5000 is obviously at a different level.
I currently use a cable adapter on the high current terminal block on the Giandel which is not ideal because it may limit transient current delivery. Tomorrow, the 1m Furutech DPS 4.1 power cable, Furutech FI 52 NCF 20A connector, and Furutech FP-209R spade connectors are arriving. I plan to put this cable together and use it to power my conditioner from the terminal block of the Giandel.
"A 1/2" A80 + 468 = live." I'm guessing you mean the Studer A80. What's the 468? Of course the source is the most important factor in achieving live high fidelity. Aside from that, how do you achieve clean power? Which NBS power cords?
Clean power matters based on use of NBS power cords which prompted even my audio hating x to ask What did you do?
Things that made no difference either way in The. System. That. Time. Forgot. They did not make things worse. They did not make things better. They simply made no difference to the sound quality in my system.
Your. Mileage. Will. Vary.
Tesla Powerwall
PS Audio PowerPlant 20 (TWENTY)
Plixr 150 and 400
Dedicated circuit breakers for power amps
Capacitor power supply for Nagra HD X
Tice
Listening at night compared to listening during the day
You know what will improve the sound quality of your system? A 1/2" A80 + 468 = live. I make this bald faced subjective statement of fact having never heard your system.
I use a TP Link HS105 Smart Plug to turn on/off power to the charger. I use the Kasa app on my iPhone to schedule the power on/off. I leave the power switch on the charger to on.
Ease of use is very important to me because it's not just me that uses the system. So part of making it easy, I leave the inverter on 24/7 and this drains the battery quickly. Last night while watching a movie with the family, the charge went down to zero. So I'm getting a bigger battery and I may also start charging midday for an hour to mitigate losing power during late music listening or movie watching.
If one doesn't plan to leave the inverter on 24/7, then a 200Ah battery is plenty and the 40A charger would be more than enough.
Thanks. How do you apply and then remove the 25 watt resistor when connecting the battery with the Giandel? Which smart plug do you use for recharging the battery, and how?
Giandel actually recommends 500 Ah of batteries for the 5000. However, your system is only 220W, the present 200 Ah battery at 12.6V should last about 10 hours for continuous full power music at maximum output. For most music, the average power requirement would be much less, so you would get probably 40+ hours of continuous music. If you listen 1-2 hours/day, I would think that the single 200Ah battery should be enough for several weeks without needing a recharge.
All is well and the music flows like fine wine 😁 I've been very busy with life (mostly good) and replying back to this thread has been low priority.
We're working with essentially a 12V car battery so sparks can and do happen so wear proper eye and glove protection and mitigate the sparks by using a resistor. My 30 Ohm 25 Watt resistor came in last night and I will use that next time when making connections with battery (inverter and charger).
I've been listening with the Puritan/Giandel combo and it's as good as expected. I'm going to use an analogy to help describe what I gained. I had an old pair of eye glasses and I recently got new ones. With the old ones, I could still see 20/20 but they were scratched up. Over the months and years, I got use to these scratches because I could still see very well. When I tried my new pair of eye glasses, the clarity without the scratches were appreciated. Comparing old and new, I also saw that the old pair had a yellowish tint that I never noticed before. After having the new pair, I can't go back to the old pair. I'm going to be cliche and say a sizeable veil has been lifted with the addition of the Giandel. I can hear the improvements easily with my headphone listening and with my Kii Three Active speakers.
For anyone already with a good power conditioner, I believe the addition of the Giandel will enhance the performance of that conditioner and one may be surprised at the level of improvement. I've tried the Ecoflow Delta Pro, Bluetti AC300/B300, and now the Giandel 5000/Amperetime Battery. The rest of the system has not stayed the same throughout my time with these three solutions but I believe the Giandel is the best performer of the bunch.
For how I plan to charge and discharge the system, the 200Ah Amperetime battery is not big enough. It's running too low on capacity at the end of the day. I'm returning it and getting the 300Ah model. Also, the Amperetime 40A charger is not as powerful as I would like, so I'm getting a Progressive Dynamics 80A charger (the one for lithium batteries). This new charger requires a 20A outlet which I have. I currently use a smart plug to automatically charge the battery at night and this has worked out very well. With the new 80A charger, I now plan to use a smart outlet that can handle 20 amps.
Big Thank You to ricevs and oeno for sharing the Giandel!
I do plan to use the special connection on the Giandel. The 4/0 gauge 1 foot long battery cables arrived this morning and I’ve spent a good chunk of my evening connecting up everything and insulating all bare electrified metal. A word of advice, the Giandel has internal capacitors so to avoid sparks from the initial connection with the battery, it’s recommended to use a resistor to charge up the capacitors.
The battery is charging up right now and I’m waiting until full charge before I have the initial listen which may be in the morning.
I did not know about the EMF filtering which is good to know. The casing of the Giandel is all metal which I think should help with EMF as well.
I plan to charge the battery during off hours and then disconnect the charger during other times. And I want to do this automatically using relays and some type of smart controller.
I looked again at the Giandel site, and I see four standard 15A outlets, plus a hard wire connection for high power appliances, to the right of the four outlets. I don't know if you are planning to use this special connection, but it would be interesting if you do, to compare the sound of that to one of the 15A outlets. With your low total power draw at 220W max, any of the 15A outlets should be enough.
Also, they said that the Giandel is overbuilt with special EMF filtering. BINGO, that alone may explain the sonic superiority of the Giandel as heard by Oeno. I await your exciting experiments.
My concern is that Giandel advises to turn it off when not in use. I don't know why. This would be a problem with amps that need continuous low power for standby. The manual cautions that if the battery voltage drops below 9.5, the inverter will shut down. That doesn't leave much room for the draining battery starting at 12.6V, so you would have to keep the battery charger running all the time, disconnecting the charger for critical listening. Ricevs says the sound is not as high quality unless you disconnect the battery charging cables. See what you find if you keep the charging cables connected all the time, which would be convenient.
When I play music with my active speakers, the total power draw for the system is about 220W. And when I listen to the headphone system, the power draw is even lower. So 5000W from the Giandel is overkill from a pure power perspective but I think audio quality comes from the parts and wires that can support that 5000W power draw. For example, on the Ecoflow, I studied the parts and wires for the 30A outlet vs the 20A outlets and they are different. This difference should cause a differece in sound. Being the tweaker that I am, of course I will test this theory on the Giandel :) My experience with Shunyata gear over the years tells me that wire gauge and quality matter and the quality of the parts and connections matter.
I agree, the AC adapter I plan to use with Giandel will have a negative effect but I have a hunch this will be overcome with the "higher quality" connection on the Giandel. We will see.
Terrific! I had thought the Giandel just has standard 15A outlets. I doubt that a 30A outlet would be better for sound quality, although it will enable higher power demands. Adapters can degrade the sound, so plugging the Puritan with the Ultimate power cable directly into the 15A outlet of the Giandel should be the purest way. I would be incorrect if the Ultimate cable already has a 30A male connector.
My Shunyata 6000 is plugged into the 15A wall outlet, will much more clarity and HF extension than no Shunyata. I am not interested in high power. Most of my music only requires low power, with occasional peaks. Clarity and resolution are appreciated mainly at low power. That's why high quality class AB amps offer class A operation at low power, and then AB when high power is required. The ear is most discriminating at low power.
In any case, you can try the 15A and the 30A outlets on the Giandel, and see if there is a difference.
The analogy is correct and your statement regarding all the connections are also correct. Power conditioners like the Shunyata and the Puritan can and in my experience do benefit from an inverter/battery that sits upstream. It could be because of the cleaner AC or electrical isolation but I'm not 100% sure. So that's why I demo and listen. I don't like to just wonder if something is good or not. Part of the fun for me in this hobby is to try and experience various audio gears. It's all about the experience for me.
The Amperetime battery and charger and the Giandel inverter arrived over the weekend. Now I'm just waiting for the battery cables to arrive and then I can hook up everything and demo. The AC adapter I made previously for the 30A RV connection has been modified and will now connect to the AC terminal block of the Giandel. Like oeno, I don't simply connect the Shunyata/Puritan to the 15A or 20A outlet. We utilize the 30A+ outlets.
One correction I want to make. I no longer have the Shunyata Everest/Omega XC combo. I now have the Puritan PSM1512 conditioner with Ultimate power cable.
My near term goal is to get back to the performance level when I had the Ecoflow and Shunyata combo. I'm not there yet with the Bluetti and Puritan combo but I'm hoping the Giandel and Puritan combo can get me there or even top it.
Did you connect your Shunyata to the single 30A RV output of the Ecoflow, and then your components to the multiple outlets of the Shunyata? As I understand it, this is the analogous sequence used by ricevs’ friend Oeno, with the Giandel supplying the pure AC to the Puritan filter, and the components being driven by the Puritan filter. The Giandel is like the Ecoflow, and the Puritan is like the Shunyata.
Thanks for your report. I look forward to your Amperetime=>Giandel=>Shunyata experience. I like my Shunyata Denali 6000 alone, which extends HF in particular, but also tightens the lower freq.
A few months back I wanted to see if I could replace my Shunyata Everest/Omega XC combo with an Ecoflow Delta Pro inverter/battery. The answer I found was no but I took the opportunity to also test the Shunyata gear WITH the Ecoflow together. I connected the Shunyata hear to the Ecoflow's 30A RV receptacle using an adapter. The Everest is 30A rated. The results were eye opening. The clarity and the details gained in the highs alone were nothing like I've ever experienced. Usually when I listen to music, I listen to the mids and the lows and I listen to the highs third. But such a large veil was lifted from the highs that I found myself focused on it and enjoying all the new nuances I never heard before. At last, this setup didn't last because the Ecoflow's fan was too loud so I returned it and I sold the Shunyata gear for funds. The music has not been that good since.
Since that time, I've bought the Bluetti AC300/B300 (no fan noise) and last week I installed the Puritan PSM1512 conditioner along with the Puritan Routemaster and two Puritan Groundmasters. I haven't had alot of time with this current setup but initial results are fun to say the least. I need more time to see if things are better than the Ecoflow/Shunyata combo.
However, I'm not staying still and I've already ordered the Giandel 5000 and the Amperetime battery and charger. My new setup will be very similar to the user oeno from the other forum. Knowing what I know now, I would've gone with this setup before buying the Ecoflow and the Bluetti especially considering the price and potential performance.
A similar situation is if you keep electronics on all the time, or even on standby all the time. Either the battery gets depleted faster because most of the time you are not listening, or you have to keep the battery charger going all the time. Then for critical listening, disconnect the battery charger. Then after listening is done, reconnect the battery charger. Lots of things to do and undo, only worth it if the sound of the battery/inverter is MUCH better. So far, I have not heard wild exclamations of delight from the Bluetti users, just vague descriptions of "blacker backgrounds" etc. The only wild exclamations are from ricevs' friend Oeno with the Giandel 5000 inverter. I would like to hear confirmations from other people who have tried the Giandel.
Is it possible to use two B230 cells or B300 cells, such that you do not have to shut the system down to charge the batteries? I was thinking if I bought the AC200Max the two B230 cells and charge the cells separately. Then when the system depleted, just change to the other charge cell. Not quite sure, if this is even possible.
The main issue I am hoping to resolve, is to shut down the system to charge the cells.
I'm going to drop off this thread for a while. I do think there are advantages to going off the grid to power our home stereos and, obviously, I like the quality and ease of use of the Bluetti products but that doesn't mean there aren't better solutions out there. Do your research! I'm going to post this review of the AC500/B300S which is based on a 5,000 watt inverter. The review is 45 minutes long and if you don't want to watch the whole thing just go to 31:25 and 36:10 where he talks about the inverter quality and low noise. The AC500/B300S currently sells for $2,600. Peace, everyone.
Both actually. I have a ups on my cable modem, router and computers and it was the worst! When charging it hums and put out a hum on my Node N130 that I could easily hear. My wife has a small battery backup, (forget the brand) and it was whisper quiet until it decided to charge and then there were some clicks, but no hum. To bad it only lasted about 90 minutes before the charger kicked on.
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