Upgrading form Pass integrated amplifier to a better one

denon1, I envy you, that amp should be a beast with finesse. Yes, please tell us your impressions but after at least 100 more hours of burning in. I have no idea how well your cables will work with the Gryphon. How long do your cables have to be ? Interconnects, speaker and power cords. I am asking to figure out how expensive the replacement might be even if you have no intention of doing it right away. At this level you usually try to match very precisely, this doesn't mean that only top of the line would do, in fact, I don't think so.

Ayre. They are my brand of SS electronics if I could afford anything. I can't though. :)

Best,

E

Denon1, let me know when you list your Pass for sale. Thanks. 

Diablo may sound technical, kind of sterile in some systems.  Just pay attention to these attributes.. ... 

What about the Boulder 865. It’s a great integrat at an excellent price. It’s dead quiet and is very revealing. I’ll write more in a bit, but have to run an errand.  

@jlaz tell us more about Boulder 865 while we’re waiting for denon1’s Diablo 300 update. Gryphon, Boulder and Vitus were on my short list when I was shopping for an integrated. I ended up with Vitus. Auditioned Diablo and 300. But never had a chance to listen to Boulder. 

Miketuason there is good and there is uber class gear once you hear one in this class you will be shocked at the difference.

We sell such gear and it is easy to hear a large number of improvements over more ordinary altough good brands of gear.

Dave & Troy 
Audio Doctor NJ

check out the thread by Whitecamero and the amps he goes thru .a huge list of amps..very informative thread.

sorry it is Whitecameross
https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/my-long-list-of-amplifiers-and-my-personal-review-of-each

he says the best integrated value would be
Mark Levinson No.585

I demoed Mark Levinson 585 and Vitus RI-100.
My pass int-250 is better than both of those to my ears.
The Levinson was too polite anD Vitus too hi-fi ish sounding, not my thing. The Vitus SIA-025 is the one that checks all boxes,  but lack of US service and low power (with lower efficiency speakers bass may not be his strong attribute) and price steered me away.

Inna, agree with you on theimportance of cables.i happen to learn that cables are should be considered as another important component  of the overall system. Currently all Shunyata sigma power cables and latest alpha speaker cables have been doing a very good job. The Shunyata alpha speaker cables bested my favorite Purist audio Neptune speaker cables that I liked a lot. 

Yep,with that kind of money US Support would be paramount i'd think

Speaking of money. I don’t think you could do better than what you have (Int-250) although I know it's hard to be satisfied in this hobby.

Is the Diablo 300 16K? I sent an email to On A  Higher Note  a month ago and no response. 

Yup. Check out the misc. section of this forum, I posted Gryphon prices there. They did reply next day.
Diablo 300 is $16k, optional phono is $2.2, optional dac is $6k or so, I think.

I went back to the Gryphon room FOUR SEPARATE TIMES at the last RMAF.  The Diablo 300 was driving a pair of their $52k speakers.   The source was their $9k CD player.  To my ears it was the best sound at the show.

denon1, I have Neptune interconnects and like them a lot too. But I am going to give a try to an almost unknown in the US brand - Tchernov Cable from Russia. Vladimir Lamm uses them now with his amps, and some Germans are completely crazy about them. I won't try their best, something in the middle. This should be interesting.
One thing that Gryphon does is that it doesn't try to imitate anything, least of all the sound of tube amplifiers. You may agree or disagree with the Flemming's interpretation of how the sound should be, but his designs are original. 

Denon1, I highly recommend the Gryphon product's, the dealer you have is spot on with description of the sound,  post your impression's here are email me,🎼🎶🎵

Denon1,  Btw, what version have you considered?,  the added dac module,  the mm/mc phono pre-amp?,  or regular Diablo 300?

I believe these amps could do much better with more efficient speakers. These SF are not what I personally consider efficient speakers. They need some power, and i have noticed on several speaker models that the Pass, which are excellent amps, struggle to give the dynamics - I know exactly your feeling about that aspect, as I am a big fan of dynamics. 
Now again for dynamics especially, these Accuphase wont do it any better than the Pass. There are many choices out there, but you are on something good here - if you have the opportunity for the Gryphon Diablo 300, I think you would have it all there and a great match for the SF - amazing stuff !!! Keep us posted

Ming Da KT 120 ,110 watts UL.55 Watts Tr.

Two integrated amps I have personally heard in depth a bit better then the very good Pass Labs ,are both from Denmark,
The superb Virus audio ,they make 2 models. Perrota consultants I believe still is s delear for them.
Gryphon another great product ,I do not think any distribution in the U.S

Due to a horrible review ,that was totally untrue . As with many reviewers they assume the unit is fully run in. Which BTW I totally feel the MFG should cover this to prevent dumb
Things like that from happening. Long story short it totally ruined the little bit of support 
It had and since then he has stayed mainly in the European market. Having owned a Hifi store and heard these integrated amps know they are better then most separates. Expensive Yes but built to premium standards throughout.
The same can be said about Vitus.and power Doubles down to 2 ohms.Gryphon has a smaller model out now.also Accuphase makes a lower power 150wpc which is Excellent.

@audioman58 

Philip O’Hanlon from On Higher Note is the NEW USA distributor for Gryphon audio products.  I know Philip and he is very consultive and helpful.  I also found the  links below for your review:

https://onahighernote.com/gryphon/

https://onahighernote.com/shop/integrated-amps/gryphon-diablo-300-integrated-amplifier/

http://enjoythemusic.com/superioraudio/equipment/1116/Gryphon_Diablo_300_Integrated_Amplifier_Review...

I apologize for the long delay regarding on the Boulder 865. I think it is a fantastic amplifier, and for the price, it is a giant killer. I was talked into the Boulder 865 by a dealer. I had actually wanted a Boulder 1010/1060 and the dealer insisted that 1) the 1000 series was being replaced and 2) That the money to invest in the next series would be better used on other components. I still think I want separates, but he might not have been wrong. Investing in top quality cables, balanced power, and an exceptional digital source have all contributed to the excellent music. Even when I hear a 1010/1060 combination, I think it is not that much better than what I have (given all the upgrades i made in balanced power-- the single most noticeable upgrade-- and signal/power cables). Not to mention many of the new integrated amplifiers are truly spectacular.

The Boulder is a spectacular instrument to convey what is on the recording. The boulder 865 is plays only what it is fed, it does not cover it up, it does not add anything, it does not take away anything. It simply amplifies the signal. And it is dead quiet. For example on Laurence Hobgood’s "First Song" the piano notes not only sound real, but have the power and decay as if I went over to the Steinway and played the song. The base, arguably the star of the track, was perfect. The plucking had the metallic sound and body, down to the vibrations. The rest of the track is perfect. The spacing between the performers is exceptional. That means the soundstage is great. It is not as layered as say my Viva, but that is a different system with different set of speakers, cables, and speakers.

Moving on to pop music, the 865 is equally good. On Razorlight’s Wire to Wire the melodic rock song comes alive with clarity, detail, and accuracy. The piano notes ring true, the voices come alive, with a sense of space and accuracy that very few other amplifiers can do. The drums sound great, the snare drum sounds eerily real. Classical music is just as strong, clear, accurate, and open.

The buid quality is top notch. It is a Boulder amplifier. The remote is awesome, the casing is great. They saved costs, clearly, but leaving off the trademark heatsinks. You know what though? It doesn't matter. it looks like a Boulder and if it made it more affordable, then its worth it! 

I do not like many of the audiophile terms, to be fair, I really do not know what it all means. What I can tell you is that the amplifier is open, meaning the instruments, voices, and placement is as open as one can imagine. Is the 1100 or the 2100 series better? I am sure. But with the balanced power the 865 is extremely close to the 1060.

So am I happy? Yes, I am very happy. Have I considered selling it and upgrading? Yes. I have thought about moving to the Gryphon 300, which you are talking about. I have not heard it and I worry that its not a step up but a step sideways. I also worry that it is a bit darker than the Boulder and I am not sure that will work my system. I have considered the Vitus sia-025 as well, but again I have not heard it in my system or with equipment like mine. I have considered moving up within the Boulder range and if I find the right opportunity, I might very well do that. I have a Viva Solista Mk III in my library and its great as well, different than the boulder, but conveys the signal in a very organic way. I am lucky that I get to enjoy the best of solid state and the best of tubes. I am not sure though that even my Viva would best my boulder in that system. Other great systems I have heard just did not wow me the way that my system continues to make me happy.

The other thing to remember is that the boulder is great in my set up with the equipment I have, I have heard Boulder sound bad with other cables, and have heard great systems with other amplifier designers that sound like dreck in my system. For example the DartZeel just sounded plain bad (the CTH 8550) in my main system. It sounded as though it was underpowered. I have heard the same DartZeel in other systems and it sounded great... and the separates can also be excellent.

The only other shout out I want to suggest is that the Core Power Technologies Equi-Core 1800 was transformational in my system. I rarely give product shout outs but it really quieted the whole system down and really made the 865 sound more similar to a 1060. Would the 1060 sound even better? Sure, but I do not have one in home to test and the 865 is dangerously close. Even my professional musician friends could barely tell the difference.

In all, the Boulder 865 is fantastic.

@denon1, Thanks for the update. Please let us know after continued hours of break-in if there are any aditional improvements.
Until then, enjoy the music!

Great. Yeah, give it couple of hundred hours to fully burn in. When you recover from your expenses you might consider experimenting with cables. This is a very high performance level, and everything matters even more.
Tube integrateds aside, there are only two that I would consider for myself if I could afford them - Diablo 300 and Ypsilon Phaethon hybrid. Your Diablo should work just fine even if you replace the speakers at some point.

The Rogers EHF 200 (or the 100) is a great sounding integrated amp with loads of dynamic slam although sort of pricey…I've heard 'em, know people who have 'em, and if "tube like" is a thing you want out of an amp, get a tube amp. Lifetime warranty for those.

Inna, totally agree with your thinking, cables are critically important part of the system and the higher you are - the more significance they bring. For now I am done - exactly like you said - recovering from these

expenses.

My all cabling including speaker cables (with the exception of ICs - here I have Jade gold reference XLRs that I intend keep for a long time) are Shunyata sigma and they are very good. So going forward I'm finally done  with speakers, cables and amplification. The only thing I would like to improve is a frond end, meaning going with a great streamer and dac. But my esoteric k-05x is pretty god and I still like spinning cds and not to be depended on internet connection and streaming provider issues. Ideally I would love to upgrade to esoteric K-01x now but than divorce will become imminent :). 

Denon1, yes, I will always keep a cd player as well for exactly the reasons that you said but also for sound quality and some rare discs.
I understand, you didn't buy Gryphon dac option, extra $6k is no fun, and I don't know how it competes with outboard dacs of similar cost including cable and power cord. No no, this would be a very uninteresting cause for a divorce, you are absolutely right.

This is one of the more enjoyable threads I've read in years.  DEnon1 there is currently an Aavik integrated that is being offered at a very reasonable price.  TAS went Gaga over the unit if I recall.  I have the gryphon, Aavik, T&A, and th e Vitus on my short list.  I wish someone could do an ss integrated shoot-out and share their impressions.

Since he already got the Gryphon, it looks like you're the most likely candidate to try (one of) the rest and report back

Aavik doesn't have XLR inputs, has only fixed 62db phono gain, only three line inputs and it doesn't weigh much. No thank you, not for me.
T+ A looks impressive. Of those I would only audition the Gryphon and the German. Some do like Vitus, many others not much.

denon1, congrats on the new acquisition.  I look forward to your review.  

@denon1 

I also look forward to your review. Looks like at least a few of us are a little jealous of your new music maker. -Thanks for the comments vs. the Pass INT 250.

And to think I've envisioned upgrading to a Pass Labs amplifier (any model really). :)

Best of luck with your new Gryphon Diablo 300. And please do post your impressions, comparison feedback, etc. 

Have you checked the new ML585? I’ve heard REALLY good things about it, but no personal experience with it. Pass is tough to beat however so I’d be looking at those two.

You’ve got a great system but the way.

how about the  Rowland Continuum Series 2 integrated?  I have never heard it, but it has fantastic reviews. 

I finally heard yesterday from Gryphon about the price of the 300. They said they "had to organize themselves." Anyway $16,000 retail for the integrated amplifier and $6,000 retail for the DAC module. Interestingly they used the word retail. 

@slingshot 

@inna 

FYI - This is the same pricing that user Inna reported in the last several months.

Yeah. $6k for onboard DAC is a lot. It would be interesting to compare it to outboard DACs used with the Gryphon Diablo. I don't know much about digital, but I understand the Gryphon DAC can be upgraded in the future, on-line. $2200 for the phono stage on the other hand appears to be right on. I doubt you can do better with a separate phono, including cables and power cord, for this amount. Unless I wanted to go much higher or/and tube phono stage, I would definitely get it right away or a little later.

denon1
keep us updated.  I am looking at the Diablo and your feedback is appreciated.

Yeah. You guessed right with the Gryphon. I knew it. It is definitely worth experimenting with cables and power cords. If I myself was doing it I would start and probably end with five brands - Gryphon, Purist Audio, Echole, Stage III and Tchernov Cable. All cables of the same brand at a time, though mixing could theoretically give unexpected results.

If I had to do it only one cable at a time I would first try power cord for Gryphon, not interconnects and not speaker cables.

@inna 

A DAC shoot-out would be interesting - internal vs external. It may be closer that one might think; the Gryphon with internal DAC needs no extra interconnect and may also greatly benefit from the synergy that has been engineered into the product.

This integrated looks to be very good, double-downing from 8 ohms on down. And pricing wise is competitive at its' "retail" price. I hope to hear it in 2018; the distributor is within 30-40 miles of me and I hope to find a dealer nearby, hopefully with speakers I'm familiar with.

pokey77, be careful. If you listen to Gryphon you are likely to want one. Definitely steer clear of Flemming's separates especially power amps. As he put it in one interview pointing to some monster amp of his - This will wake up dead Eskimo - . Danish humor, I love it.

@inna 

Well, I just looked up dealers in the US and according to the website, there are no dealers; just a distributor. Again, they are close to me so I may give them a call. 

It would be great to not only hear the 300, but to hear a full Gryphon system at the lower-end of the price range. I know that is funny, but you also know their gear is quite expensive.

I want/hope to build one more system and so I am looking at the best integrateds, with a great speaker, and a DAC or possibly reference quality CD player as my last system. I've had my current system a little over ten years now and having heard so much really good gear in the last four or five years, I have the itch to build one more system. We shall see.