Under my tower speakers -- Isoacoustics Gaia, other options?

@constantin1970, I have them under my big Tannoys. I think sticking to the floor (creating a suction) is how they are supposed to work. 

Late as usual, but a great discussion. 

@tonywinga, to take your great advice and experience (all around) a step further, I was dissatisfied with the high constant rate of the Nobsound springs. I went and found matching springs with about half constant rate (9.3lbs/inch I think) and bought a hundred. On very lightweight items I use one spring per Nobsound unit, and only three units (tripod) for only 3 total springs.

I was unconsciously trying to keep the gaps as small as possible like you recommend at .1", just so the thing can flex up and down a tiny bit only. Today I read up more and now 'get it'. I wanted 'soft and floating' for it all, slow to settle.

Now my Nobsound springs are used for three subs and I still don't need that many in each. I only used the lighter after-market and as few springs per component as possible for that tiny gap. I have eight components gently floating now.

I loved your description of speaker platforms and have been semi-engineering the springs I'd need for 110lb speakers and home-built platform. Just a bit scared of the speakers going down if not planned exactly right. It is the final frontier for finishing off my gear, and will probably yield the single most benefit if done correctly.

 

 

 

I finally figured out how to post a picture.  This picture shows my spring platforms that I made for my speakers which I now use on my HT subwoofers.  Trickle down.

I am considering the Podiums for my 185lb speakers. I live in an semi-active seismic area (San Fernando Valley). I currently use Legacy spikes on a very thick carpet/pad over a 12" poured concrete 3000psi steel reinforced slab. The podium could add greater stability and probably more defined sound (it’s already quite good).  However, the C type podium at $1800 price is 75% of the price of my speakers.  Probably worth it.

I tried Gaias (borrowed from a neighbor) under equipment. I prefer Ultra SS Stillpoints and Synergistic Research MigSx. I have ordered Pods for my CD transport and Platforms for both pre-amp and amp. It’s possible to upgrade my vibration isolation with Townshend products. I’ve been using the wonderful Seismic Sink under my terrible non-isolating VPI TNT VI for 17 years (pump it 5 pumps every six weeks-no big deal).

Have you seen this video where three guys try the Townshends, Gaias,and Prime Acoustic platforms? It's very long but informative as they try different configurations. The floor is concrete with wood overlay.

 

I watched as much of it as I could. 

It's tedious,yes.The men aren't exactly dynamic personalities. But I could definitely hear the differences in the tracks they played with the different products installed and was surprised by which combination I preferred by the end.I'm actually beginning to start the process of trying different footers and platforms. My floor is wood over a basement though so not applicable to your setup.

 

@jtcf Thank you for positing this.  The video confirms what I heard with my first set of Pods under my CD transport.  I am pending receipt of Platforms for my pre-amp and amp.  (I have a 17 year old seismic sink which is essential for my VPI TNT VI-otherwise, I would replace it with a Platform).  

The podium prices are reasonable for most speakers.  The use for the subwoofer could be enhanced with a plate covering the cut-out logo in the middle of the podium.  As is, it's obvious that downfiring woofers or ports could react negatively to the cut-out.

@fleschler so you got through the video, lol?I have an old seismic sink also which is under an equally old Audiolab integrated that is used for TV duties. In my listening/living room the equipment is all on sand platforms, IsoAcoustics feet,and a walnut cutting board(CD player). My speakers are down ported like the sub in the video so I was very interested in what the different results would be if any. They definitely were not subtle. So I have two Primacoustic platforms ordered to try under the speakers and they'll also fit under my subs and I will see what happens for better or worse.Another tactic I was considering was fashioning something with a maple board along with EVA foam and neoprene which is a lot of fussing with correct ratios and heavy lifting. I'd really rather not.

My second listening room's Legacy Signature IIIs have a down firing woofer.  I use a very heavy 2" thick Mapleshade block under them.  They previously sounded best on spiked carpet/slab.  They did not sound good with a 1" thick granite shelf under them. The CD player and small tube pre-amp sit on large buckwheat pillows (the EAR 324 also sat on a pillow for best sound).  The tube amp sits on a marble deck.  

I listened to nearly the entirety of the video, skipping some of the Isoacoustics sound examples (I already knew what they did to the sound and didn't have to hear the entire music to affirm that).  

The Townshend podiums are fantastic. I'm posting a reaction/description of what I heard and why I am keeping them in a separate thread.

I put the Gaia 2’s under my Aerial 7t speakers about two weeks ago. My speakers are on carpet on a suspended floor, plywood over floor joists and were spiked.  The  first song I played there was a very noticeable difference or should I say improvement. The first thing I noticed was the improvement in bass. Less boomy, tighter and more focused. There was more separation between instruments and more clarity. The same with vocals. All the sounds were clearer and less smeared. I’m using the carpet spikes with the Gaias and it cost me around $800 with taxes. By far this is the best tweak I’ve done.

Lemonhaze and OP:

I recently saw an Illusory test posted here on 1-21-23 at 11:23 AM using an aluminum cone. Is anyone using aluminum cones for audio? That is not a metal we would ever use for musical designs. Aluminum cones are lightweight, sounds terrible, and the frequency range is nuts.

Next, I viewed a list of statements and found them fictional, posted on 1-21-23 at 4:59 PM. Since there are two sides to every story, here is some food for thought. I may offend some who believe they understand vibration management products but do they?

Spikes came about in the early days of wall to wall carpeting to prevent the cabinets from dancing around by anchoring it to the underlying wood. Beyond that, the audiophile world has been misled as to their purpose. Rigid coupling feet will operate and perform the same function as the bridge does in coupling the strings to the soundboard of any string instrument.

Misled is a dangerous word, especially for someone who has worked in this field for over thirty years. Listings of generic statements and believing one theorem is better than another does not work for me. Home team testing and results also register a big zero.

We manufacture acoustic bass, cello, and violin parts. Attaching a string to a soundboard requires tension and tuning of some nature. This statement does not provide an appropriate analogy for whatever point you are attempting to make. 

The balance of these briefs appears as one man’s theory.

Vibration is a two-way street    

Vibration is sound. In sound reproduction, vibrations are infinite. Believing vibration is a two-way street describes an old-school approach to thinking and limits growth in understanding.

Spikes cannot drain energy to a heavier mass     

Metals are resonance conductive. The basic laws of physics dictate that all energy seeks Earth’s ground. When a resonance conductor meets the planet, does the energy force move upward to mars? Many here would like to see the testing methodologies that went into backing out this statement.

Our Company Founding Fathers, all well-written and published engineers, grew this business. The technical model based on the fact that resonance is in constant motion and is attracted to metallic conductive pathways is proven science. Resonance is formed by vibrations and travels on all surfaces regardless of size. From transistors to wall surfaces in music, energy is in constant motion.

Drain energy chosen by an audio marketing company seems so slow in motion. High-speed resonance transfer is more the norm when musical instruments, vocals, and sound reproduction are evident. Everything musical involves high speed and a timeline.

A small contact point actually amplifies vibrations    

Is this amplification effect audible? It has never affected our products or listening quality. What was the tip of your testing model resting on or into what contraption? What material does the test cone consist of, and what did the geometric design look like? Can we see those results? 

The bottom line is if humans cannot hear it, what is your point?

Spikes cannot reduce internally generated cabinet vibrations     

The speaker designer uses and relies on vibrations to create the tone we listen for in our speakers of choice. Why would the designer choose spikes to reduce internal vibrations? Damping materials make more sense.

On the flip side: The Audio Points™ reduce the vibrational resonance generated by electricity. Temperature is the control factor used in these experiments. How does decoupling a chassis take care of that vibrating transistor without a mechanical ground (coupling)?

Question one-size-fits-all and no lab report devices

Please rephrase your question.

Isolation will offer clarity that cannot be experienced with coupling because with coupling comes additional, unwanted vibrations     

Bullcookies. Coupling produces leading-edge dynamics and harmonic structures that are missing from many isolation and decoupling products. Salesmanship is the agenda without third-party testing and documentation to prove otherwise. We would prefer everyone use equal costing parts with appropriate testing labs to formulate comparisons.  

Stop using low-budget nail head spikes, handheld aluminum cones, little music boxes, and tuning forks in meaningless experiments. They prove nothing related to real-time musical performance. 

I grow weary of watching everyone test their dollar spikes against products costing more. It makes zero cents to me how a two-bit 1960s nail-spike design drives the conversation. Is this High End Audio, or is it high-end marketing? 

There is more to vibration than the tall tales presented for eliminating it. Why are some listeners so afraid of vibrations? Electricity has vibrational properties, so vibration patterns begin at the initial source we use to function as an industry. Electricity is a constant factor in understanding vibration.

Why do people attempt to eliminate vibration in a constantly vibrating environment? Like bailing water from a sinking ship using a teacup. You have become a victim of marketing if you believe this methodology.

Isolation means the mechanical path is either broken, or the form of energy is converted to another form

Explain how energy changes into heat and that form of energy become a gas. What percentage becomes heat, and where does the balance of resonance end up? Does the heat (ballistic resonance) return to the original conductive object of greater mass that generates it? Just because the energy changes form, it still seeks the greater mass of the closest ground plane. Energy always seeks the pathway of least resistance to Earth’s ground.

What happens to the energy when you “break a mechanical path”? It has to go somewhere other than the favorite scapegoat known as “turns into heat” and disappears like magic. 

We use coupling discs between the Audio Point tip on the carpet, tile, concrete, or hardwood flooring. For thirty years, we informed the public to put the pointed tip through the carpet and touch the flooring.  WE WERE WRONG. For more information, call us.

Isolation is easy to perceive

Do you mean easy to hear? 

Springs, discs, pucks, balls, pads, and all the materials have been in audio since the late 1980s. 

All these devices are coupling products according to the empirical laws. 

Two names have taken the modern-day helm leaving many methods of vibration management behind. Coupling and decoupling are the most popular marketing strategies used today. The only significant difference between the two theorems is coupling is based on the laws of vibration, motion, and gravity and is a science with history.

Anyone can argue that absolute isolation and decoupling cannot exist in the presence of gravity.

Decoupling carves new roads in the advertising gambit for repackaging and selling old stuff. The product designs and the packaging looks fancier today and still use coupling as their function regardless of storyboarding. The products sold long before the word de-coupling hit the market. The word decoupling has yet to gain any scientific meaning, despite the Sound Industry’s love for marketing.

Thank you for your time. 

Robert Maicks

Sound Engineer

Vibration Management Consultant

 

 

 

@audiopoint Thanks for weighing in. I am not sure I followed everything there. If you were to make your main point in a single clear paragraph, I'd be interested to read it. It might help me understand what you wrote, at length. I blame my own lack of knowledge for not following your points. 

I have used hockey pucks between spikes and carpet, not so much for vibration but to elevate the speaker height.

Now hockey puck with furniture pads (hardware store) underneath= poor man's gaya.

 

What isolation device do you recommend for speakers on carpet over suspended floor that allow for easy repositioning? I’ve looked at GAIA feet but am not crazy about prospect of having to stack them on top of the required carpet disks. 

I have been using Starsound Sistrum SP-101 stands on wooden floors for the past 10 years. These use the technology that @audiopoint describes above.  I originally had them beneath my Audiokinesis Jazz Modules in three different rooms with great success and just put them under my recently purchased Wolf Von Langa SONs.Colin King from Gestalt Audio Designs came to set them up for me. We first positioned them on the floor and carpet to start figuring out placement. Colin started zeroing in on a good placement and they sound very good. Then we started to try putting something under the speakers. I  also had decided to purchase some Gaia II footers so we could have them on hand to try. First we tried some rubber pucks that Colin brought. They offered little to no improvement over the SONs on wood floor or carpet. Then we put the SONs on the Sistrums. Right away there was a remarkable improvement in sound. Bass was tighter and more accurate without any of the slight boom we had been hearing. Highs were crystal clear and precise. Soundstage was wider and deeper. On some well recorded acoustic tracks that we had been using to test the set up, singers sounded very much like the were in the room. We didn’t even bother with the Gaia footers. One possible criticism was that the sound was now slightly on the analytical and lean side. This concerned dissipated over the next day as the stands and began to settle in. Since then I have been fine-tuning the placement of the SONs in the room and they sound wonderful on the Sistrum stands.

@dmk_hifi Regarding your question about recommendations for speakers on carpet, I previously had used the Sistrums with one or two of the downward facing spikes through the carpet and sitting on a coupling disc on the floor beneath the carpet.This worked great. However, after Colin positioned the SONs in their final spot in the room we decided to pull the rug back partially under the speakers so that the  front spike on the Sistrum was under the carpet. This rug was fairly thick and had a pad, which we couldn’t get the front spike through to make contact with the floor. This killed some of the magic we heard before. So we pulled the rug back in front of the Sistrums and the magic was back. I talked to Robert, who I purchased the Sistrums from,and he said the the latest version of LiveVibe stands are available with much more substantial coupling discs and the platforms sound incredible on carpet on these discs.I will be trading in the Sistrums for the new generation stands and will soon see how good they sound.

Although I can’t quite follow Robert’s (Audiopoint) description of their technology, it really seems to work incredibly well. I was tempted by the positive comments about the Townshend products and perhaps will try them sometime but for now I am sticking with a product that has worked incredibly well for me.

@hchilcoat

This concerned dissipated over the next day as the stands and began to settle in.

I’ve never heard of stands "settling in." Interesting. Thanks for your narrative. Very detailed and clear. Also, the website for "starsoundtechnologies" appears to be no longer operative. Is the company still alive? 

They are now at livevibeaudio.com. I will be trading in my Sistrums for the Rhythm-jr platforms, which should fit nicely under my speakers. The Sistrums take up a lot of real estate. 

There are several substantial brass and steel parts to these stands, which we can be adjusted to fit your equipment. We had to loosen and move them to fit the new speakers then tighten. So that combined with the 100 lb weight of the speakers results in some settling. 

Took a look at the SP-101s and seems like a very different technology and because of all those small balls or whatever, I understand the settling comment now. Interesting to understand and hear comments about because of the difference. They do take up real estate but I think they have a clean look.

The basic design of the Sistrum and newer Rhythm stands is a steel platform with downward facing brass Audiopoints connecting the platform to the floor and upward facing Audiopoints connecting the platform to the equipment. The position of the points can be adjusted by sliding along slots in the platform. Each Audiopoint sits on brass coupling discs. It looks like newer versions have beefed up the coupling discs and there are options for different sizes discs. 

I’ve never heard of stands "settling in."

 

Audiophiles can imagine anything ;-)

Our perception is very plastic, but many audiophiles tend to attribute changes in their perception (for instance getting used to the sound of a new speaker or whatever) to "changes in the thing I’m listening to."

 

 

 

Fair enough. Correlation doesn’t mean causation  

 

@dmk_hifi  The carpet spikes under Gaia footers should not be feared.  Two person job, or a really smart dog helping.  After footers are set, simply tilt back some and have the other person or dog place under the center of the footer.  Repeat.

I have the Gaia 1's under my Focal Sopra II's, they made a huge difference and improved the sound tremendously which surprised me because the Sopra's sounds so good to start with.

Thanks Robert (audiopoint) for the in depth discussion on the science of vibrational energy. Very long but because of recent experiences I read every word.

I am just someone who loves music and like most here have had a lifelong passion to get the most out of what gear we aquire. I have had my speakers on Townshend Podiums for almost a year and extremely pleased. So much so that I now have their Platform under my CD player. 

In your discussion you talked about coupling and transferring of vibration via metal contact surface. I understand that to mean a larger “contact patch” being beneficial. 
At some point in my research before purchasing my Podiums someone had commented that it was optimum for the loudspeaker cabinet to sit directly on the surface of Podium. When I initially setup the Platform under my Simaudio cdp, because I had already been using Symposium Rollerblock 2+ for years with excellent results, I placed them between it and the Platform. Nearly unlistenable and metallic sounding and very strange cancellations of some frequencies. All of this a new experience for me. Tried other soft footers and they all helped to rid the metallic aspect but it was obvious threre was still a resonance issue with disappearing solos or cymbal crashes. 
My last resort were a set of three stainless steel metal plates that I had been using in conjunction with the Rollerblocks. These were the answer! Kind of expected it all along but could never get confirmation from Townshend regarding the “contact patch”.

Someone upthread mentioned they were acquiring a couple Platforms and I would be interested to hear how they end up interfacing to the Platform. Because of my excellent experience with the Podiums my initial plan for the CD player was to placed “naked” on the Platform but because of a dozen or more button head screws (of different size) on the bottom I needed something at least 1/8” thick. 
 

The Podiums were such a revelation to me. I’m 63 and since the early 80’s have always used spikes under speakers. Game changer, personally. Really what started this journey was a Symposium Segue Iso under rigid Xerxes turntable to help alleviate footfall disturbances and it did this very well which led to more research on my part. Where I am at this point is that I believe acquiring a set of Precision Couplers or Super Couplers might be the cat’s meow….

 

I've used GAIA IIs, spikes and springs under Spatial Audio X3s and much preferred the springs. Isoacoustics GAIA are a pain with heavy speakers on hardwood floors as they stick to the floor and you can't slide them easily.

The springs I used were modified Nobosound. The mods are easy, just drill a clearance hole then use a nut and bolt like this:

I recently switched speakers to Piega C40s and couldn't use the spring system so went back to the GAIA feet. Pain in the rear to get the speakers to move on my hardwood flooring. Then I tried Herbies gliders and they work great.

I cut wax paper into squares and placed them under the Gaia’s on my speakers until I got them into their final position.  I probably could have left the wax paper under them but I could not rest knowing the wax paper was there.  Did the sound change when I removed the wax paper?  Not at all.   

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5cXRYay0Mbc

I watched the video, well I jumped through it.  Their comments about the Isoacoustics Gaia feet were that it improved the sound but the mid range became harsh sounding.  They seem to attribute this problem to the Gaia feet but I'm thinking the Gaias just uncovered another problem.  Think about when the speakers are on their spikes some smearing or smoothing of the sound covers up their mid range harshness problem.  Perhaps it is a cabling issue or their DAC.  That's the fun of this hobby- one change leads to another.  And so it goes...