Under my tower speakers -- Isoacoustics Gaia, other options?

Thanks for the replies.

@avanti1960 spikes are a good idea. Got a specific rec for those? Tiptoes is sugges@tomcarr
@stereo5 Do you have a concrete floor under the speakers/gaia IIs?
@captainsteve Is there a specific product Townshend has that you like?
@leadcrew Thank you! As far as I can see, a single 2" square is $99? And I need 8 of them. That's pretty steep.

I've been using some nice inexpensive things I got on ebay but for speakers I think I might do a bit more. 

@captainsteve 
Not sure if you saw my OP mentioning that I have a concrete floor not a wooden. I can see how smitten you are with Townshend seismic podiums, though!

@celtic66 
Your comment is much appreciated and relevant -- I like your long distance thinking!
"Well worth investment for now and future speaker upgrades.  Mine were on carpet over subfloor."
Are you saying that the best solution (apart from Townshend) might be Gaia plust carpert spikes?
@stereo5  I see -- you like the Gaia II's on your carpet plus wooden floor; I'm trying to figure out the outcome on a concrete floor. I've heard those are very different kinds of floors to deal with. 

@celtic66 @clearthinker @ronboco @rmdmoore Yeah, it seems that spikes, the less expensive option the best, first thing to try.

Funny how some folks who love Townshend can’t seem to absorb my remark (in the OP) that I’m not going to spend that kind of money, given that they at least a third of the cost of my speakers. 

@reubent yes, the’re pre drilled. I’ll look for those outriggers! Thank you!

@jeffseight I promised my wife to reduce my spending on dilithium crystals, or an antimatter reactor system would be my first go-to.

@noodlyarm @dinov I am am still strongly inclined to experiment in this direction, especially if I can get them return-able to the store if they don’t do much as @tk21 found.

@spaceguitarist -- thanks for the paper. I’ll take a look.

@ryder Thanks. So you have tile-on-concrete and I have carpet-on-concrete. Need to think about how analogous that is. But again, trying these might be risk free given the return policies I'm seeing around.

Looking at some threads on Ascend’s website I found that my speakers came with spikes. Trying to locate all 8 of them:

@surfcat Thanks for relaying your experience. Your floors are hardwood and mine are concrete on the basement level. They are very very solid. So, I'm not sure whether your experience will translate much for me. That said, I'm getting a lot of good information about Townshend, here. It's still too costly given the cost of my speakers, but I'm mulling it a bit.

@drack1 Thanks for the tips!

@ryder Thanks for your comments. The Townshend is only portable IF any new speakers I purchase have a base that fits on the podium purchased. My present (somewhat trim) speakers would get a size 1 podium; unless future speaker fit this podium, then the it is not portable. The alternative is to spend extra money, now on a podium for future (possible) speakers. But now the expenditure is even beyond what is already a questionable investment. That's the challenge.

It’s not a question of funds being tight, really; rather, it’s a question of whether it makes sense to spend a third or more on a platform, given the speakers’ cost. Maybe your rule of thumb is different? Would you spend 1/3 of the cost of your speakers on a platform if your speakers had a concrete floor under them? Take that as a serious question -- I’m curious about your way of doing things. I would prefer to get any number of other tweaks -- skyline diffusers, isolation for other components, a better DAC, etc. before pouring money into more isolation than is really justified by my conditions and speakers.

As for success rates being 100%, I would like to know what percent of those folks have concrete floors. If wooden floors are a major problem for speaker vibration, and I assume they are, then it would make sense for most Townshend podiums to be sold to folks solving that particular problem. And if that is true, then the success rate would be quite high.

@tonywinga 

Thanks for your reference to the video and your own DIY account. Very interesting. I watched a Townshend video and there are some more and less convincing elements to it. The vibration dampening is impressive. However, a couple of things stood out to me.

First, I don't usually walk around my room while listening, and no one else does, either. So that "solution" addresses a non-existent problem.

Second, while the earth's seismic activity is an interesting factor, isn't the person in their chair (and the air in the room) also vibrating, and at the same rate? In other words, if I was to dampen the earth's seismic vibration on my speakers -- but I am still not isolated in a similar way -- wouldn't I be more out of sync with my speakers as a result? It seems like an angels-dancing-on-the-head-of-a-pin issue, anyway.

@tonywinga 

Yes, isolating the speakers from the floor prevents the floor from being a passive radiator. But my floor is concrete with a carpet on top of that. I cannot imagine it's radiating that much. Then again, I just may be limited in imagination!

    @69zoso69 

Thanks for your report about your Gaia II's on your wood floor diaphragm bobbing up and down. You might not have seen in my OP that I have a concrete floor.

@whiznant -- you have a wood floor, too. I have concrete but appreciate hearing the name Aurlex.

@rvpiano -- thanks for your report about the concrete floor effect. Be nice to know if it's the height.

@robert_1  I suspect you're right, but a friend and expert audiophile went from those cork deals to Gaia and had his skepticism overcome. Different speakers than mine but concrete floor. Hmmm.

@mglik 
"Townshend Podiums will be so effective as to like double the value of any speaker." 

I believe it's a good product but I have to admit this claim is hard for me to fully accept. The videos are impressive but your phrasing, well, it made me giggle.

Do you have another handle, MC ?

@nonoise  Agreed. There's a way in which scientific claims can be accurate but misapplied. We can measure things to the microgram, but that doesn't really help us bake. 

@arcticdeth 
Your DIY suggestions include putting cutting boards, or large flat stone squares, on top of the situation I describe -- which is carpet on a concrete floor. I don't see what putting your suggested hard things on top of another hard thing, my the concrete floor, makes sense. Can you explain?

@whiznant 

 isolation platforms not only help eliminate the floor form adding to the sound but also vibration getting back to the speaker, especially with concrete floors. The vibrations have no where to go but back into the speaker.

That comment, especially the bold part, has really helped me see why the "concrete floor" factor is not the end of the story. Thank you! I suppose I figured that the floor was so inert, it wouldn't resonate in sympathy with the speakers -- and indeed it would not. But the vibrations coming from the speaker is the key, and thank you for pointing that out in a way that made sense to me.

@sokogear Thank you for your recommendation. It's hard to believe a platform that inexpensive is out there as a solution. I appreciate it.

@lemonhaze I deeply respect your opinion and experience. I will read the link you provided and seriously consider the platforms. It defies my economic common sense to spend that much but you're making a salient pitch, here.

@lemonhaze Some very helpful conclusions from your article. I quote:

Spikes came about in the early days of wall to wall carpeting to prevent the cabinets from dancing around by anchoring it to the underlying wood. Beyond that, the audiophile world has been misled as to their purpose. Rigid coupling feet will operate and perform the same function as the bridge does in coupling the strings to the soundboard of any string instrument.

In summary

• Rigid feet couple vibrations
• Vibration is a two-way street
• Spikes cannot drain energy to a heavier mass
• A small contact point actually amplifies vibrations
• Spikes cannot reduce internally generated cabinet vibrations
• Question one-size-fits-all and no lab report devices
• Isolation means the mechanical path is either broken, or the form of energy is converted to another form
• Properly designed isolation is predictable, repeatable, and neutral in performance
• Isolation will offer clarity that cannot be experienced with coupling, because with coupling comes additional, unwanted vibrations
• Isolation is easy to perceive
• Vibration transmissibility is easily measured

Also interesting, making some case for spikes (suitably tested on a particular setup): 

"By having spikes on the base of the stand (as illustrated in diagram 1) we allow the speaker stand to ‘grip’ the floor under the carpet. As a result, we can expect the spikes to reduce how much the speaker and stand wobble around, particularly at low frequencies. Unwanted vibrations or shaking of the speaker box and stand at low frequencies could then be reduced. By holding the speaker more firmly we may alter or assist its ability to radiate low frequencies. In addition, the floor may now act as a secondary radiator or medium to convey sound vibrations to the listener. Hence spikes under a stand may well have an effect we can sense, not because they “isolate” vibrations, but for precisely the opposite reason! To do so, however, they need to effectively penetrate through the carpet so the stand can grip the floor underneath.

What the above can’t tell us, of course, is whether any changes produced by such spikes will be judged to make the resulting sound “better” or “worse” – or even if the changes will be noticeable. That will be a matter of individual circumstances and the personal preferences of the listener. There are various reasons for this. One example is that, in some cases, the movement on the springy carpet might help damp out higher-frequency resonances in the stand more effectively than being gripped by the floor. Matter of circumstances which might be judged ‘best’ for changing the performance in the way the individual user might prefer."
https://www.audiomisc.co.uk/cones/speak.html

Ok, so this is the post where I eat some of my words. I’ve been reading your posts, and others, and watching videos about the Townshend podium. I really like my speakers enough to try to bring out their best qualities. From what I am reading and seeing. -- e.g., here: https://youtu.be/IvTrtMmrfE4?t=1088 there’s a lot that could be gained by a profoundly isolated speaker. If it all does nothing, well, shipping is a small price to pay to really know that.

The other thing I am thinking is that I’m not really going to be ready to go to a "next" level speaker for a while, in part because I really think these speakers are quite a great value and match very very well even with my lower powered tubes and subs. My next speakers are going to be at least 2x or 3x my current pair, and I’m not ready to go there, yet.

With the Townshends, I can try do a real comparison with the spikes or even some Gaia.

The other thing a podium could do -- if it works well -- is know that I can move my speaker into my next (new) room (which has a wood floor on some cork over concrete) without worrying about how the speakers will sound in there. Or to a room upstairs (over suspended wood).

I’m almost over my reluctance to try the Townshends.

I watched as much of it as I could. 

The Townshend podiums are fantastic. I'm posting a reaction/description of what I heard and why I am keeping them in a separate thread.

@audiopoint Thanks for weighing in. I am not sure I followed everything there. If you were to make your main point in a single clear paragraph, I'd be interested to read it. It might help me understand what you wrote, at length. I blame my own lack of knowledge for not following your points. 

@hchilcoat

This concerned dissipated over the next day as the stands and began to settle in.

I’ve never heard of stands "settling in." Interesting. Thanks for your narrative. Very detailed and clear. Also, the website for "starsoundtechnologies" appears to be no longer operative. Is the company still alive?