un-becoming an audiophile

I listen a lot in my car. I have an Audi that has an ok B&O system. Lots of music on my iPhone. Drive fast listen to music! At home I have a Naim Muso v.2 sounds ok. I try not to listen critically. I have a big system too. But I’m waiting for new speakers and I haven’t listened to that system in months. 

Audiophiles are entry-level. You can grow out of it and see the light. Ignore the weak chinless dynamics in a box for car prices ignore the 3ft tall audiophile towers ignore the cables that cost more than a nice Ducati. Ignore the giant class-A amplifiers that use as much power as your dryer. Consider horns a small tube amp and just enjoy music in your life.

What a healthy discussion. Thank you all.

@prndlus So very well said! What people often seem to be complaining about -- when they're not shouting "It's a conspiracy by the industry!" (LOL), is that they cannot control their own minds. Instead of owning that (as you have) they blame the hobby or say it's not a hobby. Flagrant displays of ressentiment, if you ask me.

I had to make a conscious decision that there are times to be critical and times to put that aside.

That doesn’t mean that the critic is subdued completely, but it’s a habit that can be developed that puts the critic back into proper perspective.

@bolong …nothing could be further from the truth!  Most musicians could give a crap less…they live music.  

At a certain point, while reading the forums and learning about audio, I realized I did not want to be an audiophile, just as you’ve put it, to the point where it intrudes on simple enjoyment of music.

By then it was too late, I had already become one.

I had to make a conscious decision that there are times to be critical and times to put that aside.

That doesn’t mean that the critic is subdued completely, but it’s a habit that can be developed that puts the critic back into proper perspective.

Like meditation: one decides to sit quietly for five minutes without thinking, and simply ‘be’.

A thought occurs, ‘Did I pay the gas bill?’

The mediator says, ‘I can think about the gas bill all I want in five minutes, but now I will not.’

The Buddha spoke of it as an exercise, like lifting weights, but for the mind.

So, I’m still always hyper-critical, but I don’t dwell on it as I used to.

I focus on the music and all the things my system does well.

I recall the years of listening to garbage-quality audio and the really cool thing I’ve put together that makes music fun like I needed it to be.

Incidentally, I initially misread the topic as ‘unbecoming OF an audiophile’, like ‘unbecoming of an officer.’

And I thought, Bose?

@russ69 , lurching back to your comment on system cost v. enjoyment of same, the 'time v. money' issue can lurk...

....and sometimes you may have those other objects and/or activities that lurk, beckon, or demand attentions of sorts....in a way too similar a fashion.

I just grew tired of pursuing the bleeding edge and the cost of the tickets.

Now I just amuse self and enjoy the music, the 'means v. why' and the latter still wins. ;)

✊🏾

@whart thanks for suggesting those key treasures of “ Spiritual Jazz “ what seems as a decade ago…. I know a guy @sbank  you should Know…. And again thanks for connecting me with Max…. Lord of great pressings….

oh the list is long…. But wait….. I’ve got to fit the mold of lonely…

”ain’t nobody loves me cept my Momma… and she could be Jiiving too “…

BB

@grislybutter I was simply asking if $3500 was meant as an example of a little or a lot. 

For new retail, that is about my minimum for something I want to listen to for a long time. It would only be half that for used gear. 

Hey, a few minutes ago I was on my back porch, merrily sawing away on the best of my three fiddles (none of which, BTW, are the least bit high-end). Letting my fingers do the walking, to borrow an old cliche. What can I say? Music just makes me happy.

It all depends on what scratches your itch. I got into hi-fi in a pretty serious way in the early ’70s, have had very good systems since that time and the opportunity to hear many, many more over the years. One aspect of the "hobby" is improving sonics. Nothing wrong with that-- in fact, if you devote the time and attention necessary, you can wind up with a pretty good sounding system, depending on set up and room. But that’s only one part of it--looking for the next acquisition, the next incremental improvement, comparisons among different pieces of gear or approaches. (I’m leaving the hard core DIY builders out of this for now).

In this context, the music is grist for the machinery-- used largely to assess sonic outcomes.

The same can be said for the pursuit of "the best" pressing; I know people in record collecting who are buying for sonics and some incremental difference in vinyl formulation, using the same metal work, may justify an outlay for yet another copy of an audiophile warhorse that everybody has and knows. There are collectors of the obscure, the valuable, ’78s, whatever, but I’m trying to keep this mainstream to what much of the audiophile market encounters.

I went off on a lark a dozen or so years ago, coinciding with my retirement, to curate the many thousands of records I had accumulated since the ’70s. It was an education. I replaced some copies, got rid of others and opened myself up to a whole world of other music that had not drawn my attention-- post bop jazz, that fits somewhere short of "free" jazz and includes soul, funk and other elements, often under the rubric of "spiritual" jazz. This eventually became a highly collectible area and less fun because of the prices. (Condition is always an issue).

I then had an epiphany- a lot of what I like about this pursuit has to do with the story behind the recording- how it was made, who the players were, what technology was used to make it. This is in some ways an intellectual pursuit but it is adding immensely to my enjoyment.

You can have more than one "goal" in this hobby- I do--I’m less about acquiring new gear for the sake of climbing higher on the mountain- my vantage point is pretty good where it is. I still buy records but have slowed down given the inflation of the used record market in the last few years. I will buy a rare record on occasion simply because I want it, but I buy them to play, not simply as some sort of "investment." (I don’t consider much of this stuff today to be an investment at the high mark ups in today’s market).

You are the one who decides what is important to you and how you want to spend your time. I was recently fascinated by the story of Joe Bussard, who collected old blues records- he did it purely for enjoyment and had a great collection of extremely rare records. He passed away recently and those records will be sold.

To me, it’s all a learning experience. I’ve gone through periods of my life where I didn’t have the time to pursue this stuff and other times where I was extremely active. I guess part of it is changes you go through as a person-- you evolve, so it isn’t surprising that your views and approach to this pursuit should change and evolve as you do.

To me, the ultimate engagement is making music. I don’t consider myself to be more than adequate these days on keyboards and play guitar more for fun than any serious effort to get "better"-- but there is huge joy in that even as a rank amateur.

Keep changing, keep thinking, keep evolving-- it’s the only way we stay vital. And it should be fun. If you aren’t having some fun, take a pause. That’s been part of the process for me as well.

celebrate the ever widening first world income disparity

irony or not: proves my point perfectly

@uncledemp you said it much better than I could (and I tried :) )

good thread, lots of participation, many terrific points raised and discussed... very broad ranging

a few patently ridiculous, thoughtless comments as well... to be expected

all this should have each of us reconsider what enjoyment in this hobby is, can be, and whether we are achieving it in how we are each going about it... that is very positive

now if you’ll excuse me, i’m going to pour a glass of chateau margaux, taste a bit of keluga reserve, light a king o denmark, spin some liberace, and celebrate the ever widening first world income disparity reported in the latest issue of the economist...

If you value the things in your life over the people in your life, regardless of what it’s called, it’s careless. Doesn’t matter the focus of your materialistic obsession. When you lie about what you spend to your spouse, that’s a lack of character and disrespectful. Keep it up and you’ll have all the time you want to yourself, which, as much as it appears a badge of honor to some here, is actually easy to achieve. A knucklehead like me pulled it off..
 

If you have people in your life that you love and love you, take advantage of it, it’s the grown up thing to do. Some rich audiophiles are philanthropists and some are stingy, self centered man/woman children. Having drinks or getting high to numb yourself so you can enjoy an endeavor you don’t enjoy seems harder than finding something you do enjoy. Sorry to be a buzzkill. 

Maybe some young person will read this in time to sort themselves out. I wish I had learned it twenty years ago, but I was too smart then. I’m fortunate to know it now, and never been happier. I have a stereo, and listen to music, but it’s not my life. 
 

I was simply asking if $3500 was meant as an example of a little or a lot. Don't put words in my mouth, then you are just feeding your own arguments and ego, independent of what I said and meant. It has nothing to do with class warfare.

One of my smaller systems was around $3500

Is that a little or a lot? I spent less than that on my "main" system. 

So what? Are there quotas as to what is appropriate amount for spending? Say you only spent $250 is your “main system “. That’s equivalent to feeding an entire village in a poor country. Does that make you evil and greedy ?

Your narrative is purely class warfare IMHO. 

@russ69 

One of my smaller systems was around $3500

Is that a little or a lot? I spent less than that on my "main" system. 

(main = only)

@simonmoon @tomic601

did you read the comments under how-do-you-stop-house-guest-from-damaging-your-speakers

It was a collection of the most selfish, egoistic, cynical, disrespectful attitudes I have ever seen.

"Do you have the same hypothesis about people with large expensive watch collations? Or people with their own wine cellars and wine collections? Or people with car collections? "

Is that a serious question? Yes, of course, generally I do.

Many of you live in a bubble. You have a very different prospective of the World. Yes, hobbies and the way those hobbies are pursued tell a lot about people. The way people present themselves on this forum tells a lot about their character. I did not come to a conclusion when I first heard of audiophiles with a lot of money that some of them are selfish/self-centered people. I came to this conclusion reading this forum.

Of course watches, wine and cars are different categories, less lonely hobbies than collecting audio gear. Not all rich people care mostly about themselves. But it definitely helps in becoming rich. It also helps to feel good about themselves that they donate money to some causes. Does it mean I judge altruists? No, I am just pointing out that you can spin everything both ways.

We probably disagree about everything, and that’s fine, I have 0 intention to convince anyone. And again, I am always open to be entirely wrong about everything. That’s what I often am.

 how would one's hobbies influence whether they have philanthropic tendencies or not

I don't even know where to begin. Ask any shrink. Or just use simple logic. The person's personality determines the hobby, not the other way. The person's philanthropic tendencies won't really be affected by the hobby, I never said that. Of course, long term hobbies can change people, so there is that. But the basic idea is the personality determining both the hobbies and empathy

I can be happy as a pig in mud listening to Dynaco A-25 , NAD 3020, and a 2 head Nakamichi cassette deck… total expenditure $ 618 and $218 of that was in 1986…. ( that’s a joke for the NAD fans )…

I also have a love a True Temper flyrod….

Why deny yourself the salt fix of hot dogs or cold cuts ?who am i to say….

@russ69 +1 ... my living room system entertains not only myself but the dozens of social event guests I have over in the course of a month, and it was pieced together for a couple grand tops... everybody enjoys the sound, and indeed is probably the best sounding system almost all of them hear on a regular basis; they bop and I see heads turn during some passages, cocking their ears to hear familiar music at a quality level practically unknown to them.  Point being, if there's a will there's a way to find a good satisfying musical system for not much money.

takes more than a mere "job" to afford this hobby, more like somebody with a professional degree/CV and 6+figure salary. 

I'm not sure what salary range is needed to enjoy this hobby today. One of my smaller systems was around $3500 and is very satisfying. If you want to, you can find a way.  

Once you’re in, you can never get out. It’s like somebody told me one time. Be careful what you put in your head because once you put it in there you can never get it out. It makes a lot of sense but unfortunately I think you’re stuck.

takes more than a mere "job" to afford this hobby, more like somebody with a professional degree/CV and 6+figure salary. 

@simonmoon

First of all, it seems to imply a ’no true Scotsman’ fallacy. As if, being an audiophile negates the ability to love music first, and foremost.

When I set down to listen to music, I am fully immersed in the music. I do not sit there taking about the track. I fully am sucked in to the listening experience, not the gear. I am transported by the music.

The OP also seems to imply a false dichotomy. As if, being a music lover excludes one from being an audiophile, or vis versa. What about those of us that are both?

There seems to be some misunderstandings...between what I wrote and how it was interpreted by you.

You are fully immersed in the music...because you have become familiar with your system and it’s probably an excellent system, too. It checkmarks all or most of the audiophile terms. And when laypeople hear/experience it, they tell you it was money well spent/sounds amazing etc. right? But they won’t invest their own funds to replicate your system...they listen like 98% of the population...ok probably 90% or more...

I never intended to create that fallacy or a false dichotomy. But I ask - why not just agree, instead of agreeing to disagree?

I am specifically talking about becoming a non-audiophile; a regular person, someone who is no longer interested in hearing the music exactly or close to how it was recorded. The overwhelming majority of people listen to music this way. They might be less stressed, have more time for other hobbies, earning potential, work/side hustle etc. Listening to music on a good system is addictive and time-consuming.

For example, when the iPod was first released, I could name more than a dozen people in my own life that were happy as a fiddle with those .mp3s and apple earbuds. BOSE speakers in a kitchen. Some no-name branded stereo that was so lousy from walmart in a bedroom...The 20 something owner loved it. You get the idea...

Certainly, you can be both a music lover and an audiophile. But take your own audio system out of the picture - are you still a music lover? Can you still enjoy music? If so, what’s the point of your system?

I’m talking about forgetting; at a fundamental level, since this hobby is not that popular and others don’t understand it, but also because letting go will allow me to save money, time, and achieve the same happy neurotransmitters fumbling about in my brain. Make it all about about the music...to the point where the gear doesn’t matter. That is my goal.

I plan on achieving this through talking to my cousin - she is a psychologist; reading more posts on audiogon, and slowly but surely re-setting my brain to demand less.

Just like eating cold-cuts or hot dogs every day for lunch. Stay away from what my pops calls "rich foods" and eventually you might not miss them all that much...

Isn’t it Audiophile in this site is define , someone who really spend good amount of money on their system? But barely have time to enjoy music but enjoy analyzing the system instead? I agree if you can’t afford it , you can still put up a good system  to enjoy music. My ELac B6 pair with my Norh leamp mono they sound good and musical.But those who have money likes to have the best, so they spend a lot on audio.

Successful people are often driven to pursue and excel in their hobbies. They may have budgets that most people don't. I think for the average person getting the most bang for your buck is the goal. That might be a $3000 dollar system or a $50000 dollar system or more! Yes you can assemble a good sounding system for very little money but unless you are very young and have no full time job a serious hobbyist is looking to get beyond big box store equipment and small 300 buck bookshelf speakers. 

@simonmoon +10

@simonmoon   +1

@simonmoon +++++++++ to infinity

@edcyn love it and your story man. As an aside the owner of the most expensive fiddle…. yes a Strad….. IS….an….. Audiophile…. we enjoy music w same speakers…..

ah… yes…the Judges high on the ascetic monk like existence come out to challenge the generosity of others…. please do match my charitable giving % and my volunteer hours….

Look homeward angel

@grislybutter 

I don’t think people generally who spend many 1000s a year on upgrades alone are the type concerned with thinking about the well being of strangers. But I could be wrong. When I read the comments on the post of how-do-you-stop-house-guest-from-damaging-your-speakers, I seriously thought that some of the members here are pretty scary, narcissistic and antisocial - not in a good way.

I am not sure how you came up with your hypothesis, but how would one's hobbies influence whether they have philanthropic tendencies or not?

Do you have the same hypothesis about people with  large expensive watch collations? Or people with their own wine cellars and wine collections? Or people with car collections? 

My cousin is quite rich, and has a fairly extreme high end system. He also made some pretty expensive upgrades to his system. And I know for a fact he is a very generous philanthropist. His audio hobby has no effect on his donating. 

I went to the violin/string instrument store and went ga-ga over a fiddle. The proprietress convinced me to just enjoy the considerably less expensive but still quality fiddle I’d bought there maybe eighteen months previously.

In any case, I truly sympathize with the folks who suffer from upgrade-itis. True, there are more socially acceptable ways to spend your money than on audio gear. But life would be drudgery without a fanciful (okay neurotic) pursuit or two.

@larry5729

"the question we need to ask ourselves is what have we done for others?"

very true.

I don’t think people generally who spend many 1000s a year on upgrades alone are the type concerned with thinking about the well being of strangers. But I could be wrong. When I read the comments on the post of how-do-you-stop-house-guest-from-damaging-your-speakers, I seriously thought that some of the members here are pretty scary, narcissistic and antisocial - not in a good way.

Not this subject again! So frustrating to me.

I am an unapologetic audiophile, yet I have none of the issues the OP mentions.

I apologize in advance if anything I say sounds condescending, but the OP contains several flaws.

First of all, it seems to imply a ’no true Scotsman’ fallacy. As if, being an audiophile negates the ability to love music first, and foremost.

When I set down to listen to music, I am fully immersed in the music. I do not sit there taking about the track. I fully am sucked in to the listening experience, not the gear. I am transported by the music.

The OP also seems to imply a false dichotomy. As if, being a music lover excludes one from being an audiophile, or vis versa. What about those of us that are both?

For at least 90% of my listening time, I completely ignore my gear. All that matters is the music.

But every once in a while, maybe an hour or two a week, I will have listening sessions where all I do is care about the gear. I listen to ’audiophile’ approved recordings, and pay attention to only how it sounds. I make changes to my system, change speaker position, move my room treatments around a bit, change a piece of gear, etc.

And you know what? That is fun too. Not as much as the time I spend just listening to music, but still fun.

The two ways of listening, and enjoying audio systems are NOT mutually exclusive.

I am sorry the OP has a ’problem’ with how the audio hobby has influenced their listing experiences, but please don’t put everyone that identifies as an audiophile in the same position.

I understand what you are saying. I love listening to music but I have a very difficult time listening to music that has poor SQ.

Fortunately there are tools available in the market place that can alleviate and possibly eliminate the issues that you have mentioned and allow you to once again sit back and relax and enjoy the music. Some are reasonably priced others can be expensive. If you want me to go into more detail feel free to send me a pm.

@p05129

I don't know, sometimes I get the impression that being an audiophile isn't necessarily about buying equipment, it's about talking about your equipment. But then I'm not an audiophile so what do I know? 🙄

Most people don’t get what is an audiophile. Most people think if you keep buying equipment, you are more enthusiastic about the equipment than about the music. Far from it!

I have many systems ranging from $300 to over 15x that amount and I enjoy listening music thru each 1 of them. But, if you want to hear more into the music, a better system gives you that capability. I hear things more distinct on the more expensive systems, I hear more detail, better resolution than on the cheaper systems. I can still toe tap in the car or listening to an apple HomePod speaker, but if I want to hear all of the music in the best way possible, I’ll listen to music in my dedicated audio room.

I’ve heard the term "recovering audiophile" said in jest. How ’bout "audiophilia in remission"? There ain’t no cure for the audiophilia blues. ;-)

Great post.

I have had RedFin send me listings for the past 4 years and I have yet to see a pair of speakers in any room.  
 

What amazes me is how much money people in the group spend and how so many are never satisfied.  When is enough, enough.

I have a good system and I am not going to spend more.  It certainly is better than 98% of the people living without a sound system.  
 

I think it is sad when someone is never satisfied with what they have.  Life isn’t just about having a sound system.

the question we need to ask ourselves is what have we done for others?  

I spend my money on decent equipment and when people ask are you an audio file I get annoyed.

What right do people have in asking if u are an audiophile vs acknowledging that you're someone who just likes to enjoy good music reproduced in a very good way.

I think the term is degrading.

To the OP, being a food lover as well as a music lover, I've watched and read a bit about great chefs and it seems that many if not most of them appreciate eating simple, uncomplicated and food and they're much less fussy about it when they're not working at it.

This question has been raised so many times here, but this thread is, IMO, the richest discussion of it yet. All the key issues are here: that musicians often don't give a damn about audio equipment; that our systems inspire delight even when they're not playing anything; even irritation with the word "hobby" to describe audiophilia. 

To me, the test of one's true love is provided by the reason for the music one chooses to play. Do you most enjoy great music, whatever your musical tastes may be, or do you defer to great recordings? If you're a "classical" fan, do you choose a performance that gets everything right, or a great recording of a lesser performance that provides a more convincing simulacrum of being present to the Real Thing? 

Again speaking for myself (as we are all doing even if our posts claim to be speaking The Truth), there are times when the love of music drives my choices, and others when it's the love of my system that I'm looking to bask in. Experience with playing music perhaps provides a window onto this dilemma. I can certainly relate to edcyn's recollection that, as a kid, he loved his records and hated his piano lessons in equal measure! I still play my guitar a bit, and I've learned cello; my wife is a pianist, my daughter a violinist, and the happiest years of my life were when we all played together. But, frankly, playing an instrument is HARD, and practicing is boring, even painful if you're out of shape for it. So I've reconciled myself to playing music as being analogous to making wine: I do them both, but it's really only because I love listening to music and drinking wine. Deeper involvement in the process is a way of enhancing that enjoyment.

hilde45's comparison with food is telling, while we're on that tangent. Surely, eating is enjoyable not only because it promotes health. Indeed, the most enjoyable eating is all too often inimical to good health. The means/ends distinction, as he points out, doesn't apply here in a straightforward way: our systems are not merely means to the end of hearing the music, they are also ends in themselves.

The OP expressed dismay at having lost the "superpower" of just enjoying the music without obsessing over the fine points of one's system's SQ. Yes, that can be a risk here, we all know it. But "unbecoming an audiophile" (brilliant title, by the way) is not the only solution. Obsession is good; embrace it! If it distracts you from enjoying the music, yes, that can be a problem, but one that hilde45's observation points the way to resolving. Foodies are obsessive, too, but I'm grateful for that: it's what brings truly exquisite fare to the table. Same with our audiophilia. Don't let your attention to minutiae ruin your enjoyment; dial those details in as best you can, and then return to the music with a connoisseur's refined regard.

Audiophiliacs suffer the same fate as "fine dining" experts in that, in the pursuit of some imagined perfection they limit themselves to experiencing all that life has too offer. One reason why people found Anthony Bourdain so relatable that the guy ate anything and everything. He knew what a good steak and fine wine would taste like in a Michelin rated restaurant and enjoy the culinary delights that street food offers the human spirit.

I admire audiophiles who enjoy the music first and the equipment and recording quality follow. 

@ghdprentice : It appears that what you have me be more of an obsession than a hobby....not that there's anything wrong with that!

@emrofsemanoa, best post I've read in years, thanks. Alan Parsons, whoda thunk.

listening to live music we enjoy is indeed useful in informing many of us what that really sounds like -- and helps ground our expectations for what our hifi’s should deliver... but just be careful to understand that much ’live’ music is being amplified before the audience hears it... so what you are hearing is also reproduced music in a sense (and arguably, rather poorly replayed, just alot louder...)

perhaps it is partly joking, or just snippy commentary many of us are prone to at times, but some people seems to glom onto the negative connotations of being an audiophile... you can take any positive pursuit too far and have it enter negative territory... this is true for some many of the luxuries in life

@fbgbill 

that's a great looking rack. 

The frames on the wall are crooked, fix them before the boss sees it :)