Turntable upgrade recommendations: SME vs AMG vs Technics vs other

I put the link up in another thread recently, this device seems to sahre a very similar role as the MinusK.

Brochure_i4.pdf (google.com)

I think SME has lost the styling plot with the model 60 looks kind of generic and boring - though no doubt precisely engineered. Looks wise the Dohmann Helix blows the SME away. 

Compared to the Helix One - the SME tech seems lacking too. Rubber bands vs a fully integrated MinusK vibration isolation system - Hmmm which would I rather have?

SME have also entered into the Market Place a New TT and Tonearm.

I received a Dohmann Helix One Mk 2 last week, and got it set up with 2 Schroder CB 11 tonearms, one with a Koetsu Urushi Black and the other with a Lyra Atlas cartridge.  

The sonic improvement over the Rega P8 is unbelievable! 

As well it should be given the huge price difference.😉

That's an awesome turntable setup you have there - congrats.

@dover 

Thanks for helping me through this musical discovery process.  Having had a Rega player since my fist audiophile days (first a P3, then a P8), I wasn't too enthusiastic about vinyl.  However, when my Rega Apheta 2 cartridge broke, and I replaced it with a Linn Krystal, I began to hear what analog was capable of. . . and, of course, then I broke my Linn Krystal cartridge, and that's part of the reason that it was time for an overall upgrade, and I have to say that while I really enjoyed the Rega P8, the Dohmann Helix One Mk 2 renders a much more musical and realistic presentation. 

Six months ago I had no idea about cartridge installation and alignment, but I used a SmarTractor UNIDIN point alignment to align the cartridges and adjust tonearm pivot to spindle distance.  I've got an AnalogMagik on order to further fine tune the adjustments of the cartridge.  The videos from that company have helped quite a bit.  

@drbond

Great news - forget about the analog digital debate, it will wear you down. Just enjoy your superb system. And buy more records. 

Sounds like the first comment on this thread by @solypsa sums it up nicely:  I'm "in for a real treat" with an upgrade in the turntable. 

I received a Dohmann Helix One Mk 2 last week, and got it set up with 2 Schroder CB 11 tonearms, one with a Koetsu Urushi Black and the other with a Lyra Atlas cartridge.  

The sonic improvement over the Rega P8 is unbelievable!  The performers just jump right out of the speakers, and present a perfectly real soundstage right in front of me.  I would've never thought that analog could be presented so much better than digital, even SACD (at least with my current set up of Esoteric's K-01X). 

As many a commenter has remarked, digital just sounds flat by comparison.  The analog sound is much more robust, which makes me wonder if there are some harmonics that come into play with analog that are not presented with the more "precise" digital signal.  Perhaps the perfect digital measurements render a flatter sound, whereas perhaps if analog was measured, there would be more harmonics, which would measure more poorly?  (I haven't read extensively on the subject, nor have I reviewed any measurements produced by turntables.)  

Regardless, the Dohmann Helix One Mk2 has been a real treat to listen to in just the few days that I've had it!  I couldn't imagine the music sounding any more real than it currently does. . . I'm sure that the Air Force One/Zero and other higher end turntables offer more, but at this point, I can't imagine how much more.   

@drbond , The best table you can buy, money no option is the Dohmann Helix. Put a Schroder LT arm on it and you would be state of the art if the Helix had vcuum clamping. Down from that would be the Basis Inspiration vacuum followed by the Sota Cosmos Vacuum. If you like the Dohmann which has the most effective suspension made I would wait until Mark adds vacuum clamping to it. He has said repeatedly that he is. The Basis and Sota both have effective suspensions and vacuum clamping. The Techdas AF 1 and 3 also have effective isolation and vacuum clamping but they are stupid expensive and IMHO perform no better than the Basis. I personally will not buy a turntable that does not have both features 

Just thought it would be helpful for any future individuals looking to upgrade their turntable to post a link to this discussion on various types of drives on turntables, and other unrelated posts in the thread, all of which may be helpful:

Too bad about the Florida show. Why not take a weekend in New York to hear some alternatives?

I agree with Dover about linear trackers / tangential trackers. There is no contest in my books - although I haven't heard any of the Durand arms - but they are many times the price. Do try to listen to an air bearing TT before you buy - and not just an air thrust bearing, but an air bearing which positions the spindle too - that is, air in all 3 dimensions, no friction at all.

I applaud you for taking your time. More fun, and better result.

@drbond

Yes I interpose linear/tangential.

I am not a fan of the new pivoted arms that try to simulate tangential tracking such as the Thales and Reed on the basis that they introduce new problems - that is they do not provide a rigid platform for the cartridge because of the additional bearings required to accommodate a rotating headshell and/or rotating arm base.

Thanks for the feedback on the amps. I’ve heard the Lamms but not the Ypsilon.

@dover 

Correct me if I'm wrong, but in your message above, you wrote "By eliminating tracking angle error and distortion, properly implemented tangential trackers give you the most accurate soundstage presentation,". .. Based on the context, I think you meant to write:  

"By eliminating tracking angle error and distortion, properly implemented linear trackers give you the most accurate soundstage presentation,".

Regarding amplifiers, yes, both the Lamm M2.2 and Ypsilon Hyperion are excellent.  I enjoy listening to both.  Overall, the Ypsilon render a much smoother presentation, which is excellent regardless of speaker cable or interconnect used, while the Lamm are very detailed and clear, they are also quite sensitive to choice of speaker cable and interconnect and can sound flat/dark with the wrong cabling.  

Here is an email I sent to a friend about them: 

I will have to say that the Lamm is very good, but the Ypsilon does take the edge overall.  The Ypsilon is smoother, although both are equally detailed and transparent.  Both offer an equally substantial sound stage, but the Lamm separates the instruments/voices with slightly more detail and space between the instruments, comparing it to the Ypsilon with the Russian 6H30pi tubes installed. 

When I switched out the standard Russian 6H30pi in the Ypsilon for NOS 5687 tubes, the improvement is quite remarkable.  The smoothness is still there with the Ypsilon, but now the detail, clarity, and balance of presentation are also present, which equals or slightly exceeds that of the Lamm.  

IMHO they add complication in set up and depending on the table may have some type of additional motor or mechanism to move the arm which can add noise. 

No thats not correct.

The top linear trackers use air bearing carriages - the stylus follows the groove without any need for motors or mechanical drive

Examples are Kuzma Air, Eminent Technology ET2.5, Air Tangent, CSPort.

@drbond - no matter how much you spend on any component, there is ALWAYS something better.

Linear tracking arms have one main advantage - there is no anti skating force required since there is no centripetal force pushing the arm away from the center of the record to counteract while the platter is spinning. I had a table a while back that had that which did not sound as good as a $500 (20+ years ago) table I bought to replace it when it broke. It was a Phase Linear 8000 which probably wasn’t set up optimally. I’ve learned a lot since then.

IMHO they add complication in set up and depending on the table may have some type of additional motor or mechanism to move the arm which can add noise. That being said, an audiophile friend got one last year and he loves it. Part of that affection though is the cool factor. Personally, I like low mass arms and simplicity in all parts of my system. 
 

@drbond 

You are right. Most experiences of audio components are within the context of the system in which they are heard. Even reviewers often have a narrow window.

And of course opinions are always subject to ones own preferences.

Each of these turntables should be capable of excellent performance. 

Choice of tonearm and in particular cartridge should enable any of these turntables to deliver what you want, in other words as long as you buy the best TT you can, you should be able to then tailor the overall presentation through arm/cartridge choice.

Given the gear you have, and the fact that you enjoy different presentations of amplifiers for example, I would recommend you look at a turntable that is capable of 2 arms, even if you start with one. This will future proof your purchase.

Even if you start with one, once you have a handle of the outcome you can then tailor future cartridge purchases to your system and/or add another arm to play with different cartridges. If you purchased any of the TT's I've mentioned, with a top arm, even a modest price cartridge should give you outstanding results. Starting with a couple of cheaper cartridges would give you a feel for what you like - and are always handy for backup in case of accidents.

With regard to tangential trackers, I have owned an Eminent Technology ET2 linear tracker modified for around 30 years, in addition to many other arms such a Dynavector, FR64S, Kuzma  etc.

By eliminating tracking angle error and distortion, properly implemented tangential trackers give you the most accurate soundstage presentation, for example if I listen to a church choral recording, with the ET2 I can hear clearly into the recording environment, soundstage, instrument location, reverberation more than with any conventional pivoted arm. I use to use the ET2 with the original Martin Logan CLS electrostatics - and to this day even my current system cannot match that combination for presenting a phenomenal window into the recording venue.

Some folk argue that linear trackers have too high a mass for the cartridge - but that is not necessarily true - depending on the linear tracking design. Careful matching of cartridge and arm and decent set up are always important.

The CSPort has a linear tracking option and I believe can also run a conventional arm as well - ie 2 arms.

I currently enjoy multiple turntables in my system and run both linear and conventional arms. Arm/cartridge and cartridge/phono matching is the key and a decent phono stage.

By the way interested to know how the Ypsilons are going - how do they compare to the Lamm combo ?

@dover

After reading about Mike Lavigne’s musical journey, who has at least 3 active turntables, from his experience, it sounds like there’s no best choice at / above this level, but just slightly different, and best to be able to listen to several different high-end turntables, and to appreciate the differences in presentation. Maybe I should just buy one, listen and enjoy, with the understanding that there will always be slightly different, better in some respects, and maybe not as good in other respects. . .

The CS Port brings up another interesting split in the analog community: linear vs. tangential tracking for tonearms. I understand that LP’s are cut tangentially. What does linear tracking bring to the table, realistically and philosophically speaking?

Yes CS Port. Thank you!

I’ve owned & enjoyed a Basis 2500 w/ a Basis Vector 4 arm & a ZYX MC cartridge for 20 years. Simple, very solid w/ very well engineered & built in NH. Still works flawlessly & sounds excellent. I think the newest version is the 2800. Seems better in every way. I would highly suggest taking a look. Strangely,  Stereophile never mentions Basis & the Absolute Sound has highly rated many of their models. Advertising propaganda I suspect.  I value long term reliability consistency highly especially when spending my hard earned $. 

@audition__audio 

cc @drbond 

CSPort air bearing turntables you are referring to are very good.

Yes I think Mike Lavigne has a Japanese table with a really weird name that caught my attention. Not a belt but a sinewy type of rope, no speed correction on the motor, lots of weight and a tangent tracking arm.

@drbond 

For that budget I would investigate

Brinkmann Balance 2 arm with Ront Tube power supply

Techdas Air Force 3 Premium

both of these would be around the $40k mark before negotiation.

For the Acoustic Signature you would have to go to the Ascona Neo @$50k retail to meet the performance of the Brinkmann/Techdas.

As an aside - if you want to explore vintage a mint Micro Seiki 8000 mk1 can be had for around US$25k, which according to some owners of both is as good as the Air Force One ( north of $100k ).  It may require a little extra effort for any parts, maintenance etc but the performance is at Airforce 1 level.

@drbond - If I were you, and spending that kind of dough, I would talk to Dr. Vinyl (he is based out of Maryland, but travels all over the place to set up expensive tables and is a dealer for a lot of small TT manufacutrers) who I spoke with a couple days ago with a quick question and he told me the level of equipment he deals with ($450K TTs and $80K Phono stages). Nice guy.

Also, I would check with Mike Lavigne who is a frequent contributor on Audiogon who has multiple tables in and above your target price range. Very serious audiophile.

I am a very big fan of Merrill-Williams turntables. Last time I talked with George, he had a significant upgrade for the latest design which involved a new platter. I use a Tri-Planar on my M.W. and am very pleased. 

So, I went to the Florida Audio Expo today, and I've been reading and reviewing more turntable recommendations and possibilities:  firstly, the expo was pretty good insofar as talking with some other audiophiles and dealers about their systems.  Unfortunately, they didn't have too many turntables set up for playing:  I think there was an Acoustic Signature Typhoon, an Audio Note lower end TT, and a Dr Feickert Woopecker that wasn't set up due to a missing part.  A Haniwa TT was set up with some odd one cone speakers.  Overall, my system sounded much better than any system that they had there, most likely because all the components that they set up was around the $10,000 price range.  

My bias towards SME has diminished, and now it has fallen out of favor because of the inability to adjust the tonearm (azimuth in particular), and many comments abou it being overly analytical. 

My interest in TechDAS is piqued, as well as the Dohmann Helix, and J. Sikora.  
I also looked at TW Acustic options. 

So, in summary, currently I'm looking at tables that weren't even on my initial list, and I'm not so interested in the SME, AMG, and Technics after doing more extensive reviewing, reading, and reflecting.  

Does anyone have much experience comparing the strengths and weaknesses of  the Dr Feickert vs. Acoustic Signature vs. J. Sikora vs TechDAS in the $30k-50k range? 

I probably plan on making a decision before 2023 rolls around.  

@drbond - you need to make sure the phono stage has lmpedence (load) and gain settings that match what is recommended for the cartridge. Many good ones have several or even continuous settings for these.
 

Some phono stages are made to work with their own cartridges. I have a van den Hul cartridge and if I wanted to really splurge, I would go for their phono stage, but I don’t want to exceed what I spent on everything else for a cartridge and phono stage. From the numbers you were throwing around, it might fit your budget. I was told that combo was part of  a $400K system that won best in a show against 7 figure systems.

The output from the phono stage can go to any regular line input of a preamp. Ideally, the preamp is just a switching box and volume knob without affecting the sound. Personally I like to KISS and go with an integrated amp and avoid an extra interconnect and power cord and save $$.

@sokogear

What particular specifications in the phono stage do I look at to match with the pre-amplifier and the cartridge?

(I learned the hard way (from @dover pointing out to me in another thread) that one very important specification to be met is that the input sensitivity of the amplifier needs to be less than the output voltage of the pre-amplifier.  I was, however, well aware of impedance matching in the components.)

Thanks.

@drbond Florida Audio Expo is a nice show, which was growing until Covid slammed everything shut. I'll be attending for a couple days, coming up from Sanibel. Dealers tend to show there also, so they tend to bring what they have on hand in terms of analog. The usual strong ex-US presence of manufacturers unfortunately will be reduced due to the current state of affairs for travel, etc.

@drbond - most important to match the phono stage to the cartridge and your system in general. Turntables should have no sound - improvements are the elimination of distortion caused by vibrations. Of course you need to make sure the arm works well with the table, that's why I like the integrated ones like Rega and SME and it's good to know you're leaning towards the SME. From what I've heard their V5 arm is about the best out there.

@tms0425 

Thanks for sharing.  My plan is to first upgrade my phono stage from the Manley Steelhead to something else.  I expect a more detailed phono stage will allow me to better distinguish the differences between various TT.  With the clamp and the pucks, the Rega P8 sounds very good, and much better than without those.  Once I decide on a phono stage, hopefully in the next 6 months, I will then begin the TT search with more vigor.  

By the way, I heard that there is an audio show in Tampa, FL, which is coming up next month:  Florida Audio Expo, Feb 18-22. I didn't see many analog companies attending, such as SME, Kuzma, AMG, or TW Acustics, though, so possibly not worth it 

As you speak about the Townshend platform : I will try to put it under my TW Acustic Raven AC. I mean : unscrewing the TT’s feet and put it bare on the platform. With the Townshend’s feet you can level the TT who’s weight is uneven as 2 tonearms with their integrated pods are installed in each back corners.

Will see what happen (excepted the broken back). If the Podiums are so effective, the platform could do the same with a TT ? Who knows ?

Hey @drbond  - the P8 is extremely light and the only thing that worked for me without counterweights was the Townshend Seismic platform that has pods screwed into the base. The very smallest pods are effective against the 10 pound turntable. If the pods are too inflexible, they won't do anything, and if they are too flexible they also won't do anything. The ones I use are just right - about 50% compression in the pods, and you don't have to adjust anything for position. They worked great for me.

Unfortunately, Max Townshend just passed away last week, so I am sure there will be some delays, but supposedly they have the capability to carry on. One frequent Audiogon poster I believe just started working there @millercarbon. You may want to reach out to him.

@drbond  This has been a fascinating thread following your journey, so thanks for putting it out there and enduring. Your quest is similar in some ways to my own, also in Florida with the many of the same local challenges you mention.

I currently have the STST Motus II DQ direct drive table with Schroder 9" CB, both set up by Soundsmith, and coming highly recommended. Unfortunately or not, I am literally on an island here, so on my own from a support standpoint too. I had struggled getting back into analog after several years off, and received great support from JR at WallyTools, but I still didn’t get very far until engaging Jose @drvinyl01 in Md. I can’t say enough about his willingness to help, regardless of the brands on his shelf, so you might be pleasantly surprised if you give him a call.

I am looking at moving to higher mass approach rather than suspended for my situation (elevated home), such as the J. Sikora Initial or Initial Max, Acoustic Signature Neo series (Typhoon, Hurricane, Tornado), Reed, among others. I have the DS Audio DS 003 optical cartridge and matching phono equalizer with a Schroder CB 9", which is genius in its simplicity and works very well.

You have a terrific system to build on and best of luck in your search.

Thanks for everyone's input.  It sounds like SME is a leading candidate, and I may consider an extra Kuzma tonearm sometime in the future after that just for comparison.  
In the meantime, I've been playing around with tweaks for the Rega P8:  while I mentioned that the clamp is much better than a weight on that TT, I also tried out isolation springs vs hockey pucks.  The Nobsound springs isolate the turntable better, insofar as tapping on the platform is not heard when the TT is on the springs, and tapping is heard when the TT is on the hockey puck/practice puck stack.  However, sonically, the hockey puck stack sounds much quieter, clearer, and much smoother than when the TT is on the Nobsound springs, which sound more grainy and less coherent.  
This leads me to question how valid the tap test is for evaluating TT and their build.  

@dover , It will fit but that does not mean it will work well. You would have to stiffen the suspension. I suppose you could fit more rubber bands. The 4 Point 9 will go right on without having to mess around. Some people think it is the best 4Point

@dover 

Thanks for your comments. I have heard the AMG many times and owned a SME 10 for a while. Nice to hear comments from someone who has heard both.

@jperry - my bad- I was mot aware AMG made arms.

Also, havent heard much about them. Sounds like @dover has though.

Why not mix both?, SME TT and the Kuzma tonearm.

Contrary to earlier statements by @mijostyn I have seen the Kuzma 4Point11 fitted to SME/20 & 30 TT's. There are a couple of examples on the Kuzma website.

It is a straight bolt on with the SME adapter provided by Kuzma.

The AMG is also an integrated Turntable, tonearm, clamp design. The same as the SME, in terms of integrated design. Why SME instead of AMG? Have you heard both turntables?

I have heard both at some length, price to price the SME's are better sounding than the AMG's, more revolving, better built, and have better resale value. SME's main business is UK military supplies, they will never go broke and they will service almost any product they have made.

Mijo, If I had a 10-inch bar, I would consider making porn movies. But I don’t want to store my meat in a vacuum. We had excellent take-out Chinese food last night at the home of a close friend.

Tomic, Thank you for the compliment re the Beveridges. I bought them about 6-7 years ago on a lark and based on my longstanding curiosity about them. I have nursed them through many teething problems, mostly in my case due to the amplifiers’ tendency to oscillate. I think I have solved the problems with my particular amplifiers long term, and I have always been happy I bought the speakers in the first place. For those who don’t know, the Beveridge Models 2 and 2SW are ESL-type panels that are very unique among ESLs in almost every aspect of their design. They are driven by Beveridge amplifiers that sit at the base of the speaker so that the speaker rests on top of its amplifier. There is no transformer in the signal path and no speaker wire at all, because of the direct connection. Also, unlike every other ESL I know about, there is no bias supply, because the diaphragms are held at zero volts and are conductive. The 2SWs are only good down to about 80Hz and require outboard woofer supplementation and of course an electronic crossover. For low bass, I use a pair of Transmission Line cabinets that I built in the 70s for KEF B139 woofers, driven by a 50W Threshold amplifier. 

Dear @drbond  : As an alternative to SME Kuzma is very good but the SME TTs are little better.

Why not mix both?, SME TT and the Kuzma tonearm.

R.

@sokogear 

The AMG is also an integrated Turntable, tonearm, clamp design. The same as the SME, in terms of integrated design. Why SME instead of AMG? Have you heard both turntables?

According to Rega’s lead engineer, nothing should be put on top of the platter as a clamp or weight is not part of the design. If it were, they  would include one or make available as an  optional upgrade like they do with a shelf, improved belts for their lower end tables, etc.

I am sure it is incorporated into heavier table designs like SOTA, VPI, Oracle, Clear Audio, Basis, Michell and the other big boys who sell or include weights/clamps along with their tables.

As far as @drbond ‘s original question, IMHO I would go with an integrated arm/table design like SME. You know it was designed to work together, and SME’s arms supposedly are outstanding and now only available new from them when buying one of their tables. I view SME as an end game table, maybe you can work your way up to their top of the line.

Speaking strictly from a musical point of view, if I decided to go Kuzma, I would buy the Ref2 with 4points tonearm. It looks to be less hifi than the others, but I never compared it the the XL. I think it’s the beautiful sleeping in the Kuzma range of tts.

It’s been here for a very long time with little pods and that’s a sign that it’s conception was right from the start.

I really don’t know how anyone can evaluate such a co-dependent item as a tonearm out of the context of one’s own system or at least a system with which one is intimately familiar. But hey…

Listening to Eartha Kitt sing “Santa Baby”. Just sublime.

@lewm I'm afraid not. My favorite chinese restaurant is 30 miles south of here in Taxacusetts. But don't fret tonight we are having Duck Confit and tomorrow is prime roast beef that I aged for 45 days. REALLY, right in my own fridge. Go to umaidry.com. These are very special vacuum bags that control the humidity within the bag and they work GREAT! I am on my third piece of meat now. The only down side is you have to have a vacuum packer with at least a 10" seal bar. The biggest bag which is for brisket requires 16 inches however you can kitty corner the bags and probably get away with a 10" bar which is pretty common.  

@drbond , The 4 point 9 may be the best value in a high performance arm out there. As for the Kuzma tables it depends on which one you are talking about. The Ref 2 and M are right up there with the SMEs. I really like the M but it is pricey. The Sota Cosmos is a better value and it has some advantages over the M, a magnetic thrust bearing and vacuum clamping to name two. It's overall build quality is not as good as the M but it has it where it counts and it is almost 1/2 the price.

@rsf507 ​​@dhcod 

The Kuzma Stabi R with Kuzma 4POINT9 or other Kuzma 4POINT tonearm is a possibility.  I suppose the Stabi M and the Stabi XL would be more equal competitors for the SME 20/3 with the Series V tonearm, given the price categories.  

SME has the reputation and longevity.  The Kuzma tonearm has rave reviews.  I'm not sure how the Kuzma turntables compare to the SME. . . 

Insofar as the wall shelves, I'm not currently convinced of their efficacy in my environment, where my equipment is currently sitting on a rack on a concrete slab foundation.  I would think the walls would vibrate more than the concrete floor here in Florida, as the walls are attached to the roof, and the roof is designed to allow wind to circulate under it.  Not only that, but don't the sound waves from the speakers bounce off the walls moreso than the floor?  

Merry Christmas, and Happy Holidays to all!

Agree with @dhcod less than a month ago at my local dealer heard the Kuzma Stabi R with 4POINT9 arm and was mighty impressed. Now only problem is how to get one into my home without the wife seeing the significant drop in bank account!

I would do the Kuzma Stabi R with a 4Point Arm. Best sounding arm I’ve ever heard. And the poster who suggested a wall shelf was right on! I’ve compared many tables on and off wall shelves and the difference is usually startling. Also I have to say that in the 12-15k region I've found the difference in tables is often aesthetic with some difference in presentation, sometimes. 

Mike, you didn’t lower the SPL around your TT. You identified some effective bandaids for the existing high SPL.  Not that there’s anything wrong with that. Happy holiday to all. I gotta go dig up my copy of Eartha Kitt singing “Santa Baby”.

It’s on a CD called Hipster’s Holiday.

Mike, I trust you’ll be able to find some Chinese food in New Hampshire tomorrow.

Dear @sokogear  : ​​​@drbond  is rigth in his post:

"" but the sonic difference is very significant even on flat, non-warped records: *everything* is much clearer, cleaner, and more detailed. ""

A good clamp as Basis Audio one makes that resonances/vibrations developed between the cartridge stylus tip, LP surface and TT platter change its resonance frequency out of our ears frequency range or at least we can't listen any more and everything improves. Even improves the cartridge tracking task and helps with the cartridge/tonearm developed feedback distortions . A clamp is a must to have.

R.