Turntable - The Next Step

I think you’ll have a hard time bettering the Musical Surroundings Phonomena II at $800. I've heard that phono pre in a few different systems with very good cartridges, and it's quite good compared to anything near it's price point.

If it were me, I’d add that $800 mostly to the turntable and some to the cartridge. If you do around $2600 on the turntable and around $600 on the cartridge (or however you want to split it), it would open up many more possibilities to improve your system.

Lots of options and I agree with vinylzone.  I think you may get better bang for the buck by allocating more to the table and catridge.  

Your cartrigde is a good one - I'd even consider putting it all into the table versus peanut butter spreading it.  I think a Rega P8 using your  the Elys cart and phone stage would be a huge upgrade sonically

@gnoworyta - having gone through a complete rebuild of my 1981 Rega Planar II Turntable - total cost over $2000 - I would recommend switching to a Music Hall MMF 7.3

It has the following great features

• music hall’s unique dual-plinth construction
• one-piece full carbon fiber tonearm
• fully adjustable VTA, azimuth, and dampened arm lift mechanism
• counterweight’s center of gravity is level with the stylus tip, is decoupled from the arm, and acts as a resonance damper
• completely isolated/decoupled DC motor with 33 and 45 rpm speed controls located in the front left corner of the turntable, thus canceling any potential vibration from the motor/belt to the cartridge
• motor sits on its own resonance-damping puck
• optional Ortofon 2M Bronze cartridge with a nude fine line stylus ($440 value)
• the supplied cartridge is properly aligned and mounted
• precision stainless steel main bearing sheathed in Teflon® for noise-free, fluid operation
• non-resonant acrylic platter with metal screw-on record clamp and soft felt mat
• high-quality gold RCA connectors and detachable phono cable
• adjustable tip-toe feet with anti scratch cups
• low-noise, fully-manual belt drive design
• built-in round spirit level for proper leveling
• dust cover and 45rpm adaptor included
• excellent instruction manual and easy assembly

If oyu find the Ortofon is lacking - you can then sell off the Rega and get a really good cartridge - like one of the Soundsmith cartridges

For a Phono Stage - take a look at the Simaudio range

• even the entry level 110LP V2 phono stage is excellent value and performance
• they are very quiet and can handle MM and MC

I had the Elys 2 and changed to a Denon DL103 MC cartridge, which i found to be superior

• but have since changed to a Soundsmith modified Denon 103 - and never looked back.

Hope that helps - Steve

Although the Phenomena phono is good, if it were me:

Hagermann Trumpet

Technics SL1200GR

Audio Technica VM760SLC ( or similar MM )

That combo is under $3500 all in. I know these are not new ideas, there is a reason they are mentioned over and over...for another few hundred add a cheap mono cart and another headshell :)

First, you need to decide if you will stick to MM or change to MC in the future.

I would first upgrade the cartridge. If Phonomena II supports MC, I would try something like Denon DL103r. I think you will feel the difference immediately. 

Then, you can think about upgrading the phono stage to something like Allnic H1202 or Herron VTPH-2A. 

I use Denon DL103r and Allnic H1202 and it sounds pretty good.

I also use Ortofon MC20 super, SoundTradition's Live! MC-10 SUT, and Magi Phonomenal MM which sound better than Denon and Allnic.

I will probably stick with a MM cartridge. No experience with MC. Thanks for all the responses thus far.

I believe your next step is a VPI Scout or ScoutMaster. The original Scout got rave reviews. The Scoutmaster was its big brother and even better. I had one before I got my Teres and was well pleased. But the cocobolo just begged me to come get it.. The Prime Signature seems to have taken its place with updates. I'd probably take the whole budget and move to this TT

VPI Prime Signature Turntable

I've had 2 or 3 VPI TT's. Their customer service is very good as are their products. They usually have a good upgrade path if you want to upgrade. You won't need much if any with this one. But keep it in mind if you decide on another VPI,. FWIW I have no affiliation with the seller. Its a little above your budget but you may get it for that if you make an offer.

I also had an MMF 7 TT. when they came out. It was good for the price. But the VPI was a big upgrade from it. Good luck to you

@gnoworyta  which arm is fitted to the P3?

Recent experience.  I have a Linn Lp12 with Kore, Cirkus and an Ekos 1 with sticky dial issue.  It sounds wonderful, in tune now for almost 2 years. I spend alot of time on setup.  I was using the old vintage tonearm cable as the sound was excellent saw no reason to change.  

While at my local dealer saw a trade in Revelation DIN cable at a decent price. Purchased it.  I can only say change of cable made such a noticeable difference.  i am a believer in cable effects and have several upgrade cables.  But I wasnt expecting the magnitude of the difference the cable made.

Thats something you might want to try.

I have been into high end audio for 50 years, turntables at the beginning were the only source. Looking at your system I would say your weakest link likely to be your preamp/phono stage. These two components are critical in getting the most out of your turntable. Looking at your TT / cartridge… I would put all the funds you can into a high end preamp and phono stage, go for used at $2,000. More would be better. This should get you to the next level. 

@infection : Unsure as to the specific tonearm. It is original to the TT purchased about 6 years ago.

I would suggest saving a little more or increase your budget and get a Linn LP12.  You won’t have to upgrade in 3-4 years.  

How about:

1) Hagerman Trumpet MC phono stage

2) AT33PTGII  cartridge

3) Technics 1200GR

I have the above with the only difference being a Technics 1200G.

This is a great combo...goosebumps on great recordings.

Please don't listen to the nonsense about removable headahells. It's so wonderful to be able to fine tune azimuth and have a bunch of cartridges on headahells at the ready.

I would suggest looking into a MoFi Ultradeck with the MasterTracker and the MoFi Supper Heavyweight. For a cheaper record weight, the BigBen by Hudson Hi-Fi from Amazon (exact same weight and diameter only 1/8" higher, but of course different material). 

Why not stay in the Musical Surroundings  family?  Clearaudio Concept or Innovations and Hana SH or SL cart.  Your excellent Phenomena II will handle MC or MM; I'd go MC. These MS components are designed  integrate together very well.  

@gnoworyta  I only ask because a great tonearm will extract more from your cartridge. You could upgrade parts of the P3 & rewire/mod the tonearm...or get an Audiomods Classic III tonearm. 

It is time to Travel and receive demonstrations, if this is an option that can be considered.

Using ones ears is the most valuable method to make prepare for making an upgrade.

The familiarity with the owned TT Set Up will allow a immediacy to identify with an attraction or detractor during an demonstration of an alternative TT Set Up.

If you can make an arrangement with a premises that offers demonstrations to allow you to bring your set up to be used for comparison, this is a very good start, a home demonstration is even better but not as easy to get offered.

Make a Box to transport your TT safely, bring your Phonostage to a premises that has offered a TT demonstration, and have this used during the demonstrations, an alternate Phon' can also be introduced as well to extend the experience.

Transit and time does have a cost, but it is nominal and the absolute fundamental requirement to assess what is attractive to you without laying out large sums to find out the purchase is not too impressive.  

Not rushing into this will be good, and if a few items of interest can be discovered through the forum all is well and good.

If you're asking what single upgrade would yield the most cost-effective benefit to SQ, I'd suggest a new cartridge.  Another bang-for-bucks upgrade would be to get an LPS to replace the wall wart on your phono preamp.  MS sells one that would be compatible with any other pre in their line-up.  You could also go (much) cheaper with a similar voltage after-market LPS, but as with all things audio, you may not get as much improvement.

I'll second the Music Hall MMF-7.3. It's a fantastic turntable for the money. To me, the Ortofon 2m Bronze it comes with is one of the best cartridges I've heard at that price point. It does everything right in my book. I have the MMF-7.3 In walnut veneer, which I like better than the black. It is a very well thought out design. I pair it with a tubed phono preamp, the Tavish the Classic with NOS tubes (RCA 7025, GE 12au7, and Sylvania 5751). 

I was quite shocked when I threw caution to the wind and upgraded my turntable set up from the Rega P3 to a Clearaudio set up. The sound stage and overall improvement in the clarity of high and low frequencies was outstanding. Good luck.

Take a look at the Marantz TT15. Made by Clearaudio. The price has gone up a bit (like everything else) but I think it's still one of the best bargains in turntables. It's a lot of turntable for under $2K.

If you’re gun-shy about MC cartridges, it may be because you’ve operated one with a wall wart. I did this with a Project Phono Box RS and it was terribly noisy. I bought an LPS for it and this did help overall quietness with MM cartridges but I still had loud hum with MC types.

I heard about the Hagerman Trumpet MC and its ability to stay quiet with a wall wart as part of its novel power supply design. Well it is pretty damn quiet. More importantly it sounded very sweet and musical.

This allowed me to finally use my AT33PTGII that was relegated to the drawer for almost a year. Finally hearing what a good MC can do is enlightening. I’m coming from years of commitment to the excellent VM740ML and VM750SH. Having a dedicated MC phono preamp is worth while. Keep your existing phono preamp for MM but consider a good MC specific unit and you may convert to the detail retrieval MC carts can offer.

I've found that MC carts are so sensitive that dust the cantilever picks up from normal use will slightly deaden the response. I use a soft stylus brush to gently clean the stylus and cantilever every few records. VTA/VTF setup is also very important. Buying a 4.5mm mat for my setup helped immensely. But once you understand how much more influential these little details are for MCs, you may never go back to MM. 

Just buy yourself $1000 worth of new albums and skip all of the woulda shoulda coulda.

@gnoworyta , Get a cookie jar and keep saving. What you intend on spending is not enough to achieve a significant improvement, one that you would notice. Rough estimate is you would have to save $6000 to do the job right. This is for the turntable, tonearm and cartridge. There are a million ways to break this up and each one of us is going to have a different opinion, a confusing mess. Learn what features improve the performance of a turntable. Watch this video. There is one big mistake in this video. It undercuts the importance of anti skating which no serious audiophile would do without. 

Go one step further with a moving coil and add a SUT. I’m using a Jensen mc2rr-L with a Hana EL into the moving magnet input of my phono preamp in another set up. Sounds fantastic.

Another option for an upgrade to turntable would be to look into an Avid turntable. They are big on the concept of the turntable matters more to the sound than the cartridge used. If you look at a lot of turntables that are of significant cost, you will notice that they provide with the turntable a relatively low cost, but high quality cartridge. For instance, on the Avid Ingenium plug and play, they provide a premounted unbranded moving magnet cartridge, actually a Rega Carbon with no markings. Also look at what comes installed on the high buck Vertere DG-1....its a rebadged Audio-Technica AT-VM520EB, I think 100 bucks. Some will say we'll that's because they don't want to provide a very expensive cartridge with the turntable package, as they assume the end user will just replace it.....I say bull crap....they provide the lower tier cartridge because they listened to the end result and found it to do all things necessary to provide great sound. In other words, don't waste your money buying some high dollar cartridge. 

I own the above mentioned Avid Ingenium plug and play and I can attest that it has an outstanding build quality for the money spent. 

@andyhifiman  which Clearaudio...?

I don’t think you need to spend $6k to get to a much better place. It’s possible you can spend double that and end up with terribly mismatched components. I think you can do it for less than $4k.

But, yes, spending $6k+ can make it less challenging for sure.

So if you do decide to pause to save some money, I would at least, for the time being, get a better MM cart. Your Elyse 2 is an elliptical. It’s a fine cart but you can do better. Try a good micro line or shibata stylus. I can recommend the AT VM740ML or 750SH. If your phono stage can do 100pF capacitance, you’ll really enjoy the added detail and dynamics these stylus profiles can provide.

These carts are the current successors to the famed AT150MLX. What’s great is that you can start with the 740ML (micro line) and replace the stylus with a 750SH (Shibata) when time comes. You can even upgrade to the 760SLC (Super Line Contact) as they all use the same engine/body.

I purchased the Clearaudio Performance DC turntable with a Universal tonearm and am extremely pleased with the outcome.

Above the Rega P3, as a number of posters have suggested, Clearaudio and Technics are very strong performers in the middle of the market. The Technics has great drive and pace. The comparable Clearaudios are more refined tonally.

As regards Linn, the Majik entry level version uses a Clearaudio tonearm. If thinking Linn, I would try to A/B the Linn against a comparable priced Clearaudio or other non suspended subchassis turntable.

@gnoworyta, not sure I can be helpful here. I've done serious seat-time with a P3 with Ortofon Blue, paired with a McIntosh MA5200 and Focal Aria 936. Very, very nice sound, IMHO. However, I ended up going with a Mofi Ultradeck+M and don't regret it for a second! My short list, at the time was that Mofi and the Rega P6 with an Ortofon Black or Bronze.. Still haven't heard anything under 5 grand that sounds any "better" than the Mofi+M. I'm a bit suspect about the low-mass design of the Rega decks, in general, even when placed on a rock solid & steady based, well isolated, etc. I would recommend you make one change at a time and work from there. It's hard to juggle too many balls in the air at the same time, if you know what I mean.

Appreciate all the (diverse) opinions. A lot to consider!