Turntable for life

@dgarretson 

I did try a variety of alternative mats for the Luxman PD44X turntables over the years, but always constrained by the need to stay very close to the weight of the original mat, for the magnetic repulsion load reduced spindle to function properly. If you use a too-light mat, like cork or foam, the bearing will not be properly loaded. If you use something heavier, like machined copper, it will be excessively loaded.

I always returned to the stock mat, and eventually added a very thin leather mat on top of it, and use the lightweight Michell Delrin clamp.

Phil

Terry9, what I like about Spacedeck, among other things, is that it sounds quite big for a relatively small table. Anna Log is what one day I might want to upgrade to, if I have a chance to listen to it ! And as always, funds permitting.

Inna, I have not heard the Anna Log, but I took inspiration from Tom's idea of a non-standard plinth, which improved the Mentor no end.

dchang1981,

I owned an original (square motor) WTTT many years ago.  I was a good basic table but I added a few modifications.  The original platter was replaced with their later (black) version, and I added damping to the arm stand and silicone cup.

But I had two issues.  One, after setting the VTF I could move the arm to its rest, then measure again and find a different reading.  So I was never sure what tracking force I had.  Second, motor torque was not as good as some other tables.  That was particularly noticeable on piano recordings.

I replaced the WT with a Kuzma Stabi/Stogi Reference which provided greater satisfaction.

If I could ever land one of these I would never look at another TT again.....http://clearaudio.de/en/products/turntables-statement.php

Dchang1981--I owned one of the original Well Tempered turntables for about 3 or 4 years before I got my Basis.  Excellent turntable and an ingenious design.  A good deal lighter in the bass than the Basis, so the tonal balance was on the lighter side, and despite the mass and constrained layer damping it really had to be kept on a well isolated platform, as I occasionally could get some footfalls coming through if a lot of people were dancing..  The new top of the line ones are reputed to be excellent--check the archives, there are a lot of happy owners.  With the original table you could really only use the Well Tempered arm, which might be a drawback if you like to mix and match arms--not sure about the new models, but they are designed around their own arms.

If you can muster $30K maybe another $10G's wouldn't be that big of a stretch.

http://audio-union.com/Helix.php

A knowledgable friend returned from the Rocky Mountain Fest extremely impressed by the Helix 1 but wondered how his Kazuma 4 Point might sound with it. Cartridge and turntable development has progressed a great deal in the recent past and well worth looking into.  

Terry9, did you have a chance to listen to Anna Log? I did not. It's quite rare.

anyone have long term experience with a well-tempered?  always liked the demos i've heard albeit not the most attractive deck.

I have used a Nottingham Analogue Mentor since 1996. Recently I upgraded the plinth, the motor, and power supply, and the tonearm to a Trans-Fi air bearing. It does sound very good indeed - the modern equivalent is the NA Dais (with the same bearing and electrics).

Perhaps a VPI Avenger w/Mag-Lev drive and three choice tonearms, one for a mono cart, one for a stereo cart, and one for demo. Canned Mandarin Orange Slices in Water as footers are a must as well...

happy listening! Kāixīn tīng

My dream table for life is a Galibier Gavia
it’s been my life blood to a rich world of music
conveyed effortlessly
incredible table

to me it is all about the music

love music
tolerate equipment

but great equipment can take you there

i had a good table before
i took the step
i was definitely missing something

I have had my Gavia table since 2008
and it was immediate - the totally captivating sound

the speed is rock solid
no resonance from the platter
full bodied heft and resolution
(the mylar belt doesn’s behave elastically and slow down and speed up. Subtle thing until you hear it, but it will be readily apparent when a table truly handles this correctly

Thom Mackris is hands down one of the greats in customer relations and very personable beyond that. He not only is passionate about music and gear but also pushes it to the limit in Colrado mountain sports.

Thom has a new Eiger "rim drive" table in development
RMAF reviewers spent a night and drove up to his home north of Denver. Each person there was very overwhelmed by the table.


Thom drills each armboard personally with your tone arm and sells or has affiliations with a wide range of the best arms. He has an encyclopedic hands on knowledge and that is conveyed to someone looking for ideal synergy. Not just the analog source. He has been incredibly helpful with refining my system.

Thom is always trying out refinements. He had a new arm mount several years ago that tightened up the sound / synergy with the arm and he also developed new refined offset motor pod with corresponding power supply that takes that even farther as well. I was very pleased with these and they weren’t break the bank expense wise. this is great value as you are not having to replace a whole table

I have used a triplanar vii arm on my Gavia with a ZYX universe and it was wonderful.
then went to Durand Talea and all the magic of the table came through even more

the highest of recommendations

thank you Thom

galibierdesign.com

All about the music for me, now.  I might go for a higher end cartridge at some point, but I'd have to do speakers to make that worthwhile.  More cubic dollars than I'm comfortable with at the moment.

So, searching for new and used vinyl is back to the magic quest I'd enjoyed as a kid in SoCal.  Full circle, I guess;-)

Kudos to those who's summited. I'm still searching but if I may ask. After years of the quest is it the music or the table? I'm on a steady diet of idlers past couple of years. Into 50s and 60s vinyl mostly classical and jazz.

My 'table is doing its job without fuss, so now its all about the music.

deleted

I had a ProJect RPM 10.1 for a little over four years and this was the TT for me.
About 4 months ago I listen to the new VPI Prime using the same cartridge as my RPM 10.1 and much prefer the sound of my 10.1   I have recently sold it and put a down payment on the new ProJect  RPM 10 Carbon which I will not get until early April of this year. For me, the ProJect RPM 10  is the Turntable for life. I love everything about it.

I still have my Scoutmaster/Dyna 20x with all the upgrades and now a Red Point Model D/Soundsmith (Sotto Voce) soon to be. Which I am sure will be the last TT I ever buy!!!

I have owned a Garrard 401, Linn LP12, SME20/2, KuzmaXL4 and now the DC motor version. I would certainly not recommend the Linn, I have heard a few TT which better or equal it at a lower price. I cannot see me changing the Kuzma now or in the future, it needs o be placed on a very solid foundation though.

Kudos to those who's summited. I'm still searching but if I may ask. After years of the quest is it the music or the table? I'm on a steady diet of idlers past couple of years. Into 50s and 60s vinyl mostly classical and jazz.

The first table I was really happy with was a VPI HW-19 Mk.2, but the Townshend Rock is THE table for use with a Decca/London cartridge. Since I will most likely be using a Super Gold Mk.VII and Reference for the remainder of my years, the Rock it is.

I have two Luxman PD444 turntables in long term use. One is 40 years old this year, the other is 36. They've outlasted numerous turntables used alongside them over the decades, including Linn, Pink Triangle, multiple VPIs. The only upgrades have been replacement of the stock sprung feet with a combination of brass cones, damping membrane and bearings, which improved the 444's sound substantially.

Phil

To me, a nutcase is someone who spends hundreds or thousands of dollars on footers without looking at or thinking about the physics of what a footer needs to do and how the problem might be approached using readily available materials. But yes; I suppose I'm a nutcase for other reasons, like having 5 turntables.

i might add that once I committed to create the slates for the lenco and the denon, I needed also to have feet that were tall enough to keep the chassis from touching the shelf.

Lewm

Orange slice damper suspension?????

You are a nut case!  LOL!

You read correctly, Peter.  Of course, my way of describing them is meant for laughs, but I do use small cans of Mandarin Orange slices in water (sealed, of course) for footers on both my Lenco and my Denon DP80, which also sits in a slate plinth.  I use 3 such cans per turntable.  On the bottom side of each can I have affixed a Black Diamond Racing tiptoe, so that the can contacts the shelf via the tiptoe which in turn contacts only the top of the can, not the circumferential raised ridge, the idea being that energy coming up into the can would more readily vibrate the thin metal bottom of the can, which energy would then enter the internal milieu and be dissipated.  Ideally, I would put another tiptoe on top, between the can and the slate slab, but I've never gotten around to it because the footers "work" fine as is.  The idea is that energy traveling in either direction will be absorbed and dissipated in jiggly the contents of the can.  Having some unevenly distributed solid matter (the orange slices) floating in the water further should help dissipate energy (entropy, you know).  FWIW, sauer kraut might work too.  Probably canned peas too.  But I like Mandarin orange slices, so I figured going in that if I did not like the footers, I could eat the contents.  At $2 per foot plus tiptoes I had lying around, it was a low cost solution.  Further, if you remove the paper label, the naked cans with their circumferential rings look rather Art Deco-ish.

Whilst I do not own one, I get the impression that LP12 owners tend to hold onto their decks the longest, not only that but one never sees Voyd Reference (3 motor version) ever up for sale.

Lewm,

"The latter using my own tiptoed Del Monte Mandarin Orange slices in water footers"


What ???  :-)


Good listening


Peter

First of all, I am not claiming that any of my "lifetime" turntables (plural) is "the best".  I can only say that I've arrived at a place where I feel no urge ever to make major changes.  I own 5 turntables, but my lifetime keepers in no particular order are:  (1) Technics SP10 Mk3 chassis mounted in 100-lb slate and wood plinth incorporating an Albert-Porter-designed damper block on its bearing and the Krebs mod; (2) Kenwood L07D; (3) Lenco L75 mounted on PTP3 in slate plinth with "Jeremy" Superbearing and heavily dampened but stock platter.  The latter using my own tiptoed Del Monte Mandarin Orange slices in water footers.  No belt-drives here. If there were, it would probably be a Kronos.

I agree with casaross, for similar reasons(Linn LP12).  You'll find many of the other turntables to be unsupported(the companies go out of business.).  Otherwise, since I won't be making more money in the future, I would look at cheaper alternatives(I'm a belt-drive fan.) that I could tweak.

My TT for life is my copper platter TTW  Eliminator with custom belt drive.

+1 to williewonka and smoffatt!  The Planar II with a DV Karat 17 RS was the table that first taught me that audio could be a lifetime hobby full of magic.  I replaced it with a new Sota Sapphire Series III in 1984 that I'm still using today.  Had Sota upgrade it to the Series V platter & suspension along with a custom arm board for my Graham Phantom Supreme (sadly, only 18 months or so before Kirk passed away).  There is better stuff out there, but not by leaps and bounds to my way of thinking.  I'm satisfied and now spend my time searching for new music instead of chasing table tweaks. That's what I call happy listening!

Love my Sota Cosmos IV with Graham Phantom II. 
Now that i'm retired and working only part time jobs, i certainly could not afford something sonically better than it. 
Also owned a star sapphire and Nova in the 80's and 90's which i liked a lot. 
As the VPI one, they're made in the USA.

VPI TNT III "Special" turntable (1999)
VPI JMW-10 for every, easy, "very fine", "indexed" adjustment possible, and arm damping
VPI stand and maple top plate
VPI SDS
VPI dust cover
VPI stainless steel record clamp

Dead quiet, warm, accurate speed, and 3D sound!

Keeper for life!

I have a turntable that looks a lot like an old Empire 208, but it has a different platter pad, damped platter and the plinth is machined from solid aluminum. Its equipped with a Triplanar arm.

Its been hard to beat. I've been running it since 1992. I have to replace the belt every 4-6 years or so.

The motor and bearings on this machine are proven bullet-proof. I've no doubt that it will outlive me.

I have no intention of changing out my VPI TNT V with SME V and Koetsu Urushi in this lifetime!

There was time a long time ago in a place far far away that most of my customers had Rockport turntables.  One of the very few turntables to have its own vibration isolation system built in.  That was back in the Golden Age of Vibration Isolation, of course.

I would prefer a Rockport.  I remember clearly the Stereophile review if that turntable, I think in 1996.  I can't get past the Cobra arm, and of the two people I know that actually have it, they say it's a total pain in the butt to set up and swap out cartridges.  Something it shouldn't be for the price paid.

N.

Interestingly, no-one mentioned Continuum and Rockport so far.

Rushton,
The Walker is quite a bit out of the league I play in with the old Dual and Garrard. I remember seeing these at CES years ago. Amazing fit and finish. At the time they were really one of the few who were competing against micro-seki.  One would be hard pressed to find a nicer table. It truly is a turntable for life. One thing that I remember is that there used to be quite a few companies that were modding micros, but I don't believe anyone offers "upgrades", (different bearings, platters, motors, belts, etc) for the Walker. To me, that meant that they got it right the first time!  Which I truly believe they did. 
Off to read your review. 
Norman

Thanks so much again to everyone. I read and greatly appreciate all responses!

LP12, 17 years young and going strong

In 2002 I began a search for the last turntable in my life. At that time there were some great choices, but not nearly the breadth of choice available today. I was fortunate to find my "turntable for life" back then, and it truly has proven to be exactly that: a table as competitive with the best today as it was over a decade ago: the Walker Proscenium turntable.

In the past decade, the Walker Proscenium has further evolved to the Proscenium Black Diamond version:  https://walkeraudio.com/proscenium-black-diamond-v/

Mine is the earlier Proscenium Gold. But the core of the table is the same, and it could be fully updated should I choose to do that. I doubt that I will -- this table continues to be just so deliciously great at what it does. My comments on this forum from a dozen years ago still apply: https://forum.audiogon.com/discussions/review-walker-audio-proscenium-gold-signature-turntable

Today, we are fortunate to have many really great new turntable designs and if I were starting my search today, and depending on my budget, I would love to explore the current offerings from Brinkman, Galibrier, Kronos, TW Acustic, VPI, Walker Audio (the new Procession turntable).

Yet I have not interest in changing from the Walker Proscenium. It continues to deliver on all of those aspects of sound reproduction that are important to me. 

Best wishes for those moving forward in your search. It's an important search because the sound we get is only as good as what is being extracted from the vinyl grooves at this earliest point in the reproduction chain. If the information is not coming off the grooves, no amount of investment further down the component change can replace the loss.

Years ago I rebuilt an old Dual 1229 and installed a Grace 747 on it. I use it every day, and have never had a problem. It functions flawlessly, is dead silent and looks great in its refinished plinth  and since I did the work myself It's probably my favorite piece of hi-fi.  It repalced my Linn Sondek LP12, which I was never found of. (I know many love their LP12's)
Recently I finished a garrad 301 grease bearing table. Im using an SME 3009 on it  with with great results. I suppose I lean toward the old vintage units for their sound and build quality. That and they are easily affordable. =)
N.

Townsend Rock. 

I believe I could stay there.

TechDas AF1. Have had it for almost three years and it continues to amaze. I told myself when I bought it,  this would be my end of life TT. So far it's working.

Maplenoll apollo is my lifer, its a massive table that had been modded personally by Lloyd before he started his current company. I have modded the tonearm and i believe it will match up with any table out there. Its not the prettiest or a sleekest table with all the bells and whistles but when the stylus hits the vinyl, you are transported to nirvana. I do have a trail of used tables to get here but i do not see another table in my future

Mine was custom built. The table itself was made from 12" dia. aluminum bar stock... Platter is 4" thick & plinth is 2" thick. The flywheel was made from 3.5" aluminum bar stock. Bearings were hand lapped & made of brass / hardened steel. The motor housing is also made of aluminum & holds a Hurst 300 RPM AC synchronous motor. The tonearm stand is adjustable & separate from the table. Everything is powder coated red &/or black with .75" thick white marble (sitting on .125 sorbothane) between the platter & the plinth. I'm using a Pole Star tonearm with a Denon DL-S1 cartridge. It took me over a year (worked on it in my spare time) to finish this project but have been enjoying it now for almost three years. It looks & sounds wonderful.    

I recently ordered my last TT.  A VPI Avenger.  It will be my TT for the rest of my life.

Even a Linn LP12 sold in 1973 can be brought to current production standard. And with 150,000 LP12's in circulation, Linn has incentive to continue to improve the LP12. Linn is a substantial company with 150 to 200 employees, far larger than practically any other current turntable manufacturer. Linn has implemented a succession plan as Ivor Tiefenbrun's son now runs the company. So, the company appears to be here to stay, something that a much smaller company has a harder time assuring.

An LP12 with Cirkus bearing, Keel subchassis, Radikal motor and power supply and Ekos SE tonearm is a very high quality turntable, something toward which one can build if starting with the humbler Majik LP12. So as one's financial ability improves during a lifetime, the LP12 offers ways to improve, too.