Tube versus SS



Since I just installed some rather expensive NOS 6922 Telefunken tubes in my Phono-preamp, that yielded outstanding results, I decided to compare CD to Phono.

From the best of "Jacintha", CD, I selected "Danny Boy". Her voice emerged deep center stage from a jet black noise free back ground. It sounded more like what I expected from the analog.

That was followed by special LP's of Dinah Washington that had recently arrived. Those LP's were everything I expected with the NOS 6922 Telefunken Tubes in the Phono, but the surprise was the fact that I couldn't tell the two apart; both were outstanding.

What may surprise you, is the fact that I attribute these outstanding results from the COVID 19 "lock-down" which has given us the quietest "grid" ever in history. That means those of us with lesser means have the same AC power as the richest who can afford expensive AC power "clean uppers".

BTW, I have made extensive comparisons to recordings made before and after, the lock-down that confirm just how much of a difference it's made. I must admit that I had doubts about expensive power conditioners, but this confirms that fantastic results come from taming the wild AC.

It's my belief that we can not achieve better results than we have from the current "quiet grid", which means power conditioner or no power conditioner, we are all presently getting the same results.

Could it be that the dominant factor when comparing tube and SS when they both are of comparable quality is "The quality of the AC"?
   
orpheus10
They both have there place .I have some nice tube stuff Fisher integrated amp,Sherwood integrated amp,Harmon Kardon  Fm integrated amp,Caryin integrated amp .At times I like my tube stuff other times I like my SS...but it's nice to have change....
Hi Mike,  I meant 'a' system.  We would all like to have a system like yours, but for many of us, it's not in the cards.  So my question was whether a small regenerator would be adequate for a more modest system.  Thanks again for your reply.
If you don’t need massive amounts of power to run your system would a stand-alone box regenerator be enough?

when you say "your system", are you talking ’a’ system or.......’my’ system?

obviously ’my’ system is built on lots of amplifier headroom. i have very efficient speakers so even though my main amps are powerful, they use around 10% or less of their potential. same with my class D bass tower amps. so while rating the re-generator capacity i’m figuring full power applied, in reality it’s a small fraction of that is ever used.

so for my own system i do want plenty of headroom for the re-generating capacity, and do prefer the 10kva Equi=tech.

but in a smaller system, or if i was not concerned about having the headroom with my current system, i do think i could be well served by a plug in smaller box re-generating unit.

but how i look at it is with my upper 6 figure investment in gear and a clean sheet of paper build opportunity; whether i spend $5k on a stand power alone box, or triple that, $15k all in, on the Equi=tech, barely dents my budget picture. assuming you have the choice in your building to go my direction, it’s crazy not to. but if that is not logistically possible, the smaller box approach is just fine......and would be ’enough’ unless you are crazy like me.

last night i listened to ’Do You Feel Like I Do’ from the MoFi pressing of ’Frampton Comes Alive’ at Warp 11. every molecule in my room was energized. i was in another dimension. the system was not stressed or congested even on the peaks. that is BIG music with a capital ’B’. i got no sense of reproduced music......and to carry that off it does take headroom in the amps and power grid. no sag or distortion. how important is that to you?
Many "observant" people have noticed that on holidays, and late night their rigs sounded better. 
Orpheus10 - could it be sir that on holidays and late nights, the objective listening is done under the influence of ones favorite recreational stimulant or narcotic? 
Speculative, anecdotal at best with regard to COVID19. 

My stereo (just dated myself: who uses “stereo” anymore? It’s “audio”) sounds horrible when it’s humid out. Does everybody else’s? I don’t think so. 

As for ss v tube: ss sounds less colored more accurate, but flat to me. Tube more dimensional, lifelike, but with “idiosyncrasies”. We all hear differently, have our preferences. I prefer the later. 

Speculative, anecdotal at best with regard to COVID19. 

My stereo (just dated myself: who uses “stereo” anymore? It’s “audio”) sounds horrible when it’s humid out. Does everybody else’s? I don’t think so. 

As for ss v tube: ss sounds less colored more accurate, but flat to me. Tube more dimensional, lifelike, but with “idiosyncrasies”. We all hear differently, have our preferences. I prefer the later. 

Post removed 
     I thought that because people were staying home, they were using more A/C, or more heat, cooking more, using more hot water, etc.  OR?  Do you live in the midst of a bunch of factories or malls?     It has always been my opinion that a few minutes listening helps to psychologically isolate out the sounds we do not like, which dealers tell you is a break in period.  To support this claim, I have three complete systems, two using excellent electronics and sources.  When I switch systems, it takes a few minutes for it to sound "just right", even if I have intentionally left them both on.
     When I use my Polk XM tuner, it takes longer for my ear-brain connection to begin hearing the music, instead of the faults, and even longer  for my TV system to inure a nice sound into my brain from the horrible signal and from the mediocre, at best, Rotel FM/preamp combo (powering a Bryston through B&W's) that I paid $15 for because the tuner supposedly did not work.     For more on this, check out "The Skeptic" magazine (online)  for the article "Audiophoolery", in which it is suggested that the break in time of 90 days is suggested because that is how long your credit card company will issue a refund against the will of the retailer.   

If you notice, SS devotees define this audio thing by what's missing "noise and distortion"; while tube devotees describe it by what is present and not missing, "music", that's what's not missing with tubes.

Some time ago, a lot of noise went along with tubes that didn't occur in SS; but now that noise is "inaudible". I know because I can't hear it in my rig, nor can it be heard in the current best tube rigs. You can measure it but you can not hear it; that's what "inaudible" means.

"2nd order harmonics"; I have no idea where that came from or what it means. It's like a rumor which has been repeated for so long that they believe it's true even when they don't know what it means or how it affects the music.

The foundation of the SS devotees rests on what you can not hear. That's kind of flimsy when you think about; "you can not hear total silence". That's a good thing for them.

They have their silence, we have our music; that's fair.
My two cent, to people who like transistor sound "without distortions".
Most of these people like to talk about science, measurements and distortions - having zero engineering and technical background.

Here is the great article about tubes vs transistors:
https://spectrum.ieee.org/consumer-electronics/audiovideo/the-cool-sound-of-tubes

1. Transistor as amplification elements has much higher level of distortions compared to triode. 
In addition to that, transistors have temperature dependence distortions that tubes don't have. This kind of distortions have inertia that make them even worse for human brain perception.

2. "Good characteristics" of transistor amplifiers achieved by using feedback everywhere, that causes to replacing of low order harmonic distortions to high order harmonic distortions. Human brain recognises of a smallest amount of high order harmonic distortions because they are unnatural.

3. The single advantage of transistor amplifiers is lack of output transformers.

4. Our brains perceive distortion in a completely different way than instruments. There is a whole science of psychoacoustics that deals with this issue.

5. High power amplifiers are useless, cause compression and distortion of speakers.
Here is an example:
https://www.linkedin.com/pulse/power-compression-vs-thermal-distortion-loudspeaker-alexander-wilson/
"

Taking an example of a voice coil using 10 meters of 0.2mm Copper with a typical resistance of 5.5 Ohm at 20 degrees C.

Apply power (music signal) & the voice coil jumps to 120°C and the resistance rises to approx. 7.5 Ohm….Now the resulting current flow through the voice coil drops by approx. 35% ….So does the SPL….This is a 35% distortion!

Orders of magnitude worse than the usual suspects of THD or IMD which loudspeaker manufacturers like to quote.

With passive crossovers in multi way systems thermal power compression will shift XO frequencies when the voice coil resistance changes – resulting in summation errors between the two drivers involved, depending on program and listening level.

The same holds true for notching out resonances or compensating impedance….The more complex the passive crossover the worse the TD effect becomes.

Why 120 degrees C?

This is a safe or medium range voice coil temperature, many voice coils hit double or triple this temperature on a regular basis.

The energy involved is as follows:

The weight of our VC wire is slightly below 3g if we calculate length multiplied by cross sectional area multiplied by specific mass of copper.

We require approx. 1 Watt for 1 sec for each Kelvin temperature increase (no cooling assumed here), looking at the thermal material constants for copper

To heat up this < 3g of copper wire our voice coil is made from, we only need 10 sec of 10W input to finally arrive at a 100°C increase – or – if we have fortissimo playing – a very short 1 sec of 100W input."

Cakyol, you get the prize for the most erroneous post I've read today.

How good the DC is will be determined by how bad the AC was, as well as the quality of components in the "power supply" which is where AC is turned into DC.
All amplifiers work with DC. AC is converted to DC inside all amplifiers thru transformers, rectifiers, hi freq filters and smoothing capacitors. Lower wattage power amps may also use regulators. Because of this, the quality of the mains AC has virtually NO effect on the sound (the DC) if the amplifier is properly grounded and there are no ground loops.

ALL the necessary design to make the DC as smooth as possible are ALL included in the amp itself. Noise reduction, CMMR, smoothing, ripple reduction and transient current capability are ALL included in the power supply of the amp itself.

Where you need a good quality clean AC is if you are using AC motors, like synchronous and induction.  These may be driving your turntable and their rotational stability is directly affected by the quality of the AC.  Even then, most turntables these days internally synthesize their own AC thru precision electronics if they are using an AC motor.

Therefore, power conditioners are therefore a complete waste of money for amplifiers. The only (maybe) possible use they have is for safety against over voltage spikes (lightning ?).  

The reason that most people "feel" that tubes sound "better" is most likely due to the 2nd order harmonic distortion that tubes inherently introduce. Essentially they are listening to distorted music. It is an irony that audiophiles claim they want to listen to the exact reproduction of the sound (which the SS gives you) but then again they prefer the tube sound (distorted).

For any device costing over a few thousand bucks, the sound preference is more of a personal choice rather than "quality" of the amplifier.



There are so many different things that sound "good'. It's not until you make the decision to want to hear only what the artist presented that you will be on the path to "Nirvana". This is a very narrow and difficult path to follow.
Mikelavigne, that is so true.  My first love was a  Phase Linear 4000, it did everything; you could alter the music so many ways, and not stop until everything sounded exactly like you wanted it to sound.

"Equalizers" were the rage back then.  I went to a high end store and non of the equipment even had tone controls; "What is this, no tone controls?".  That's when I came to the realization that what I really wanted to hear was whatever the artist presented; no more, no less.

If you prefer to "sculpture" the audio to your specifications, that's fine, that's what I used to do.
@mikelavigne

Thanks for you answer. If I read you right, then it matters getting the big dawg Equi=tech as it does a better job than say a Niagara 7000? The Equi=tech is/does the same thing as a 7000 only a lot more of it?

If only Garth Powell would suddenly appear and render his thoughts?

With apologies to OP for the deviation. I love tubes but good/great high end is a matter of preference. The other day I heard a Peachtree integrated into some Totem speakers and it was lovely. Room was good.


Thank you Glissando for your very informative post.

When I turned on my rig and it sounded much better, although I hadn't done anything to bring this about, I put 2+2 together and came up with the answer; the quiet grid that resulted from the COVID 19 "Lock-down".

David, since you're good at finding answers to obscure questions, maybe you can find the answer to this question; I live in a quiet neighborhood, so I know it's not the neighbors affecting my AC, but industrial activity miles away; the question is, how far away can industrial activity affect your AC?



As I explained before, I down-load LP's to hard-drive, and listen to my "play-list" from the computer at my leisure. After I noticed the new recordings sounded better than the old, that confirmed a number of things; not only was the computer functioning better, but everything else as well; power supply for phono-pre plus everything else that has a power supply.

There are millions of people who are benefiting from this "lock-down" and don't even know it. Now that many are going back to normal, that might be past tense; it came and went, and they didn't even know it. I on the other hand, have it recorded on my "external hard-drive", which means that if the computer turns to junk, I have it all in a little box that I can take with me
david_ten
Continuing with the ’seismic theme,’ and the vibrations/resonances from human activity, here is data from the bands (and more) during the Rose Bowl Parade in Pasadena.

https://scitechdaily.com/new-fiber-optic-seismic-array-in-pasadena-precisely-tracked-the-rose-parade/

>>>>>The Rose Bowl Parade seismic activity aligns very well with seismic/human activity at CES in Las Vegas or the Rocky Mountain show.
Guys, you know those tin cans hanging from the telephone poles? Those are transformers that turn the several thousand kV (depends where you are. Ours is 8 kV) into the 220 V for your house. There may be 10 houses or so hooked to the same transformer. The Transformer isolates you from the high voltage lines. The only "trash" you get is from the other houses on your transformer.

I'm afraid that's not true. Noise can easily pass though the power line transformers you see on power poles. Particularly noise from 3 phase high current industrial motors. With many factories closed or operating at a reduced level it's quite possible the grid is quieter for a lot of folks.

I have worked in some of the best recording studios in the world and most of them employ extensive systems to provide quiet, clean A.C.. The systems never employ regeneration, FWIW. It's all filtering, supplying balanced power where it can be used and many dedicated / discrete grounds for each circuit.


Continuing with the 'seismic theme,' and the vibrations/resonances from human activity, here is data from the bands (and more) during the Rose Bowl Parade in Pasadena.

https://scitechdaily.com/new-fiber-optic-seismic-array-in-pasadena-precisely-tracked-the-rose-parade/

 
@tomcy6 

If you don't need massive amounts of power to run your system would a stand-alone box regenerator be enough?

i think how you do this is to compare your stand alone box to the regular wall outlet A/B for a period of time and with different types of music.

first question; are the dynamics (especially micro dynamics and lively-ness) equal or better? 

second question; lower noise and improved refinement?

third question; harmonics, textures, timbre better or at least not diminished?

bottom line; how do you 'feel' about what you are hearing? has the stress left your neck and shoulders? are you wanting to listen longer than before?

if these answers are 'better' or at least as good then it's working.
Dear @mijostyn : "  For low level devices like phono amps battery power supplies are king. "

Not really, all depends of the quality of the circuits design and the designer knowledge(skills to design a good power supply for that unit.

Btw, I hope one day could be at your place. Thank's for that.

R.
@mikelavigne,

If you don't need massive amounts of power to run your system would a  stand-alone box regenerator be enough?
How much is lowering the noise floor worth? That’s a subjective question that only you can answer for yourself.

I’m a big fan of “more info is better” aka “another data point” (echos of MikeL), so I suggest you can try a power conditioner for free from a retailer that allows returns. On Amazon, there are a few power conditioners $100 and less with good ratings - I haven’t checked anywhere else so there’s more out there. If you like what it does in your system, you can also buy used to save some dough or move up to a better model.


Tube will always sound different from solid state as digital will always sound different from analog. They are inherently different in every way. Digital will never be able to produce the smoothness of an analog sine wave. So you choose what you like best and your tastes will probably change over time. There are positives and negatives in these types of audio playback and I guess it comes down to what am i willing to live with? The higher end systems generally do most things better but then it comes down to your room and component matching.
@wsrrsw

Does it matter where the power get cleaned as long as it get’s cleaned?

@mikelavigne https://www.equitech.com/products/wall/wall.html is very cool "cleaning" the power in the room but would’t an AudioQuest Niagara 3000/5000/7000, Son of Q or any high end cleaner do the same thing?

Power here (semi rural) is poor. Put in a whole hose surge protector and room where beloved stereo is from wall out has all the usual treatments.

there are a few issues with power. (1) low noise, (2) dynamics, (3) dynamics, (4) dynamics.......etc., etc. muscial connection comes from micro-dynamic flow and life. PRAT if you will.

this is where the 400 pound big boy Equi=tech wall panel system makes the stand alone boxes that plug into 120v outlets not ready for prime time in direct comparison. Equi=tech is not the only choice in those large scale regenerating transformer products.

i have a pair of 500 watt into 8 ohm mega watt amps that do like lots of power on peaks, 4 x 1000 watt class D amps on my bass towers that while efficient appreciate plenty of power. and lots of other gear that don’t like any sag in power.

10kva of regenerated power gives me lots of headroom. not every system needs the amount of power mine does, but some do. the smaller units might be entirely sufficient depending on the system.

headroom = ease, effortlessness and authority in the music. large scale music in a large room comes alive.

ease = suspension of disbelief.

yes.......it matters.
Guys, you know those tin cans hanging from the telephone poles? Those are transformers that turn the several thousand kV (depends where you are. Ours is 8 kV) into the 220 V for your house. There may be 10 houses or so hooked to the same transformer. The Transformer isolates you from the high voltage lines. The only "trash" you get is from the other houses on your transformer. On my street the transformers are lawn warts, two houses to each wart except me. I have my very own wart because the power company thought my work shop would dim the other houses lights.
Power cleaning devises do absolutely nothing for me.

I had Telefunken 6922's The SLN tubes from RAM Labs absolutely swamped them and you know I am not prone to superlatives. 

For low level devices like phono amps battery power supplies are king. The quietest phono amp made the Channel D Seta L20 runs on a huge battery supply.

Frankly, when you are talking about the best equipment I really do not think tubes or SS makes a whole lot of difference. Tubes certainly look a whole lot cooler and there is nothing like sitting by a big tube amp in the winter.

Raul you rascal. I didn't know you lived in Mexico! I've got jalapeno's in my garden this year. Come up to New England and I'll show you how a Jew makes Mexican food. Turn up the heat:)
Does it matter where the power get cleaned as long as it get's cleaned?

@mikelavigne https://www.equitech.com/products/wall/wall.html  is very cool "cleaning" the power in the room but would't an AudioQuest Niagara 3000/5000/7000, Son of Q or any high end cleaner do the same thing?

Power here (semi rural) is poor. Put in a whole hose surge protector and room where beloved stereo is from wall out has all the usual treatments.


Orpheus, if you’re in the digital domain, most likely the 6922s in your source equipment are only serving as a buffer stage, to reduce output impedance or in hopes of the designer to generate a more tube-like sound (I mean this in a good way). Buffer stage does not add any gain and therefore has very little sonic signature. 
To whoever asked: 6FQ7 is electrically identical to 12AU7. With one important exception. Before you make such a swap, you need to know what filament voltage is provided by your circuit. 12AU7 can be configured to operate off either six or 12 V filament voltage. 6FQ7 requires 6 V, only. If your particular circuit provides 12 V to the filaments, then you need to use a 12FQ7. Such tubes exist, and they are usually cheaper than 6FQ7, because demand is lower. Once you get the filament voltage right, you can drop in either of those tubes in place of a 12AU7. The other tubes You listed cannot be used without rewiring your tube sockets. I have replaced 12AU7s with 6FQ7s several times, and the result is always an improvement. 6CG7 is another great option but a little easy re-wiring is required IIRC.

Optimize, I doubt if I'll change anything radically; the reason being that a person can spend their entire experimenting with things as opposed to listening to music.

Thanks for your post.

Cousinbilly, I wish I had your ability to hear; while what you say is true, not everyone has the ability to hear that difference.

Kennyc, no need to apologize when you're right. I have been in a "lock-down" inner sanctum communicating only with self for so long, that initially I failed to communicate effectively with others.

Tube versus SS is a wrong statement, should have been versus digital, and I have been comparing many different things in my head, that I didn't communicate effectively, but now I will straighten out as much as I can, and that wont be easy.

Years ago when there was much controversy about PC playback, I took everything in that the PC guys had to say, as well as what "Stereophile" had to say about changing cards in your computer, and what equipment to use for "down-loading" effectively. Now I "down-load" and then listen. My playback is identical to whatever it is that I "down-loaded"; if it wasn't, I wouldn't do it this way.

Start with my comparison to Jacintha on CD and Dinah on new fantastic LP's (dead quiet LP, the best ever for me) This is from a new 5 LP collection from "Verve". I noted that the CD had many of the same sonic attributes as the LP; they both were outstanding.

I had "down-loaded" a lot of material using the 6922 tubes; they were the same kind of tubes, but not the same identical tubes. You are absolutely correct in saying the new tubes could have been better tubes? But I made more comparisons, and discovered that what I'm down-loading now, is far superior to what is already on hard- drive; consequently I'll be doing a lot of things over.

In late March I noted an improvement in overall audio, that was akin to a gigantic wax removal from my ear. This improvement is the result of our COVID 19 "lock-down", which has given us the "quiet-grid"; of that I am certain, it's equivalent to having obtained a whole house power regenerator. Someone understood me to say that power regenerators were useless, when I stated that if you were getting perfect AC they were useless because you can't improve on perfection.

You're not overly critical, just critically correct. Now I'm going to get back to my huge job of "down-loading" LP's. Happy listening!




HI,
It never is, both titles missed but stratospheric discussions are more catchy and have enough posts with accompanied insults. If somebody hears something different then it is. Authorative is how to present and explain it even if desired to reject it. We all understand how "wild Ac" can negatively influence the reproduction but taming it and sharing with others is more productive. 

Post removed 
Years ago I built my speakers. They use the Accuton diamond tweeters, along with the Accuton C50 2" midrange. To say these speakers are revealing is an understatement.

There was 'something' I couldn't get rid of. Countless hours adjusting Azimuth, VTA, VTF etc. Massive money spent on different capacitors, wire, inductors. Still 'it' was there.

Then it started; 1st came the Balanced Power Technology (BPT) toroidal based conditioner. Beautiful. Let's say 50% of 'it' was gone. Next came a fluke. I had a pair of Plitron 1500V toroids in house. Looking over the schematics, I came to a realization: they can be wired for 'balanced' output. Common mode rejection is now my gospel. Fabulous. Final piece; Torus Power Conditioner is now at the front end.

What am I trying to say? Balanced power to your components is mandatory.

You do not lose dynamics. You lose noise. Some people perceive the loss as dynamics. Don't believe them. 
@millercarbon no need to be rude to people and make stupid comments about ear wax to a poster @orpheus10. Everyone here is entitled to their own opinions and findings. I have read many of your posts and while you think you are an expert, will try to let you down gently and point out you clearly ain't, sorry! Sure, seen the photos of your system which you like to point people to at every opportunity and well... am i or anyone else here supposed to be impressed or think you know what you are doing, more so than others here. Simple answer, no!

Nothing gives you the right to insult people, try to knock them down or make them feel stupid when they express their view, opinions, findings or thoughts. So how about you cut that crap out please.
@ orpheus10, I really glad that your enjoying your musical improvement from your NOS 6922 Telefunken tubes, audio enjoyment is what we’re all about. However, you seem to be drawing conclusions between apples and oranges.

You are comparing 2 different audio chains:
CD>Transport>DAC vs LP>Cartridge>PhonoPre
If you change a component (like a better or worse cartridge, or a different DAC), your sound will change. Just because it sounds similar to you, the logic doesn’t lead to the conclusion that it’s due to analog vs digital.

You are comparing 2 different recordings of 2 different artists mixed and recorded by different people on different equipment. Although your systems sound similar, how do you know that the recordings are of the same quality? As an example, couldn’t a subpar recording on a better system sound the same as an average system? Or a great recording on a subpar system?

Your in your statement ".... "quiet grid", which means power conditioner or no power conditioner, we are all presently getting the same results", lacks logic. Maybe it just semantics, but because we have to share the power grid, there is no "quiet grid", only periods of more of lesser noise. This logical conclusion doesn’t make sense: because of low noise power grid instance which you reasoned through your audio system’s performance, power conditioners have no benefit? All the online reviews and owners I’ve read over the years say otherwise.

When you do comparisons to draw conclusions best practices dictate that you change as few items and possible (usually only 1 item) while keeping the rest the same (constant) - A/B testing. For instance, if you only changed the old tube to a new tube and kept everything else the same, we would all follow the logic that the sonic changes was due to the tube change in your system and likely we can get the similar results if we did the same. But when you add more items (variables), things get exponentially more complicated and conclusions quickly loose their validity- too many alternate possibilities.

I apologize if I seem a bit critical, that was not my intent. Correcting inaccuracies is generally in the best interest of  forum members - get them the truth so they can draw accurate conclusions especially for their own situations. However, this should be done with respect - life is challenging enough without getting additional grief. I believe that audio forum members should learn, teach, encourage, and support each other to achieve audio bliss.

We all have different financial means - some more than others. Also, high-end audio components can be "really" expensive by most counts. These are facts that we cannot change - therefore, it serves no purpose to dwell on this - it’s a fruitless endeavor that can only cause us pain, resentment, hate with zero benefit- terribly unhealthy for us (maybe like reading my run on sentences).
Fortunately, we ALL can enjoy sonic bliss, the kind that puts a smile on your face, send shivers up your spine, deeply touch your soul...like maybe your NOS 6922 Telefunken tubes?


@orpheus10 
I am not so often here.
But I am baffled how much some fellow audiophiles is trying to shoot you down by indirectly saying that what you hear and experience is something else.🙄

Nobody can be happy and share your good experience with you, in this wonderful hobby.🤔

So many experts that know so much more than you do appearently. They know your area and what factories there are. Or they go only on their own experience when they do not have that heavy industries in their own area. 
Maybe they draw experience from lower resolution systems. Or systems that has a setup that are not as much Influenced by AC variation as yours.🎶

It is interesting that narrow audiophiles (with that I mean audiophiles that has ~ less than 20 years of experience and including with different extensive prolonged listening sessions over years at different areas/locations and gears) are the ones that are the best known it all experts. 🥰

It is great that you find that big of a difference. Is you considering any power "cleaner/regeneration" or go to DC somehow in the future?

Fuzztone, I only use 12AU7 or 6922 or 6dj8; could one of those be replaced by a 6FQ7?

Jond, this has nothing to do with tubes versus SS, that should have been tubes versus digital, but in regard to the essence of my post, it's primarily about the "grid" and the overall improvements I'm enjoying in everything. It's also about new 6922 Telefunken tubes in my phono pre.

I've been on a solo flight into audio bliss for so long that I just remembered that in order to communicate this to others, I will have to slow down and compose my thoughts.

To begin with, I down-load everything to external hard-drive and then settle back in my listening chair for a long time and focus on nothing but the music. While listening to some music I had just down-loaded, I noticed that it sounded appreciably better than what was already on hard-drive, that's when I began to try and find reasons for this sudden improvement.

While in both cases 6922 Telefunken tubes were used in the phono-pre, these were different tubes. (that could explain some improvement in vinyl, but not in a CD that was already on the hard-drive)

In the case of most people, if they turned their rigs on, and there was an improvement in the audio, although they did nothing to cause this improvement, they would attribute it to ear wax before, and continue on. But I know for certain the relationship between a "quiet grid" and better audio. There is one other factor that could make my improvements more pronounced, and that's my use of the computer; since they have the weakest power supplies, an improvement in the grid would show up more.

It's for certain people with power conditioners wouldn't notice any difference, because there would be none; how can you improve on perfection?

The bottom line is the fact that this grid thing is nothing new, it's just that not everyone has observed it.





I will say I've found my system sounding better during lockdown because the overall noise floor is reduced. I don't mean power so much as outside noises, I'm in downtown DC, many fewer cars and trucks, fewer people talking on the street. I think that's helped and maybe the power has been cleaner who knows. What this has to do with tubes vs ss I have no idea but I am all tubes here.
Battery power is the best.

I run my entire system off of 10 Group 60 Batteries in series with a DSR Charger.

Sarcasm in this time of Anarchy, BTW must suck to still be on lock-down we are rolling down here in Texas now....well as much as we can.


I think in your case SQ diffs might be more attributed to the quality of the DAC vs the sound of the tubes. If you like the 6922s try some RCA ClearTop 6FQ7s in there.

Even though I can't hear as well as some, (old age) I listen better than most. While I live in a quiet neighborhood, I can tell there must be commercial activities beyond my neighborhood that affect our "grid"; it could be a lot larger than I think it is.

I have no idea how large an area comprises a "grid", I only know what I hear and when I hear it. I recall one New Years Eve when it was 6 degrees below 0 and a foot of snow was on the ground. My bedroom rig, which is not expensive, was sounding extra special; as a matter of fact I stayed up all night listening to it, that's how good it was sounding; that was no delusion.

Since forever people have remarked how much better music sounded on Sunday. Like most people I attributed that to the quiet restful mood most people are in on Sunday. However, when you observe all the times "they say" music sounds better, it also corresponds with the time that commercial and industrial activity is closed.

Audiophiles know what makes expensive gear expensive is primarily the power supply; the capacitors alone can cost a small fortune. All that money goes into turning AC into quiet DC. The electric company even spends a small fortune trying to give you constant 60 cycles per second but this is also constantly varying slightly do to activity on your grid. Now if everything I have described is under normal circumstances, just imagine what a difference it's made under present circumstances with so many things shut down.
AC quality did not change with the Covid-19.  Come on?  More people would be drawing AC if that was the observation.  If you build a component power supply that in effect cleans or lowers the noise from AC then that would be a plus (we do that) in our components which can be as simple as an AC filter choke to begin with.  If you don't hear a difference between your SS & tube equipment all that probably means is that the design quality is similar (or something like that).  Does your tube unit have tube regulation, tube rectification?  Like Rauliruegas above, our DAC has a 30 pound power supply with filter chokes, copper plates just to get started to lower the noise floor.  Happy Listening.