Gentlemen, I hope my maths aren't incorrect. The Salvation/Terminator is a complete tt/arm combination. It costs £2400 ($5k-$6k w/carriage/US taxes etc). I've heard the Grand Prix Monaco/Triplanar at £32k, SME 20/12 at £30k, TW Acustic AC3/Graham at £20k+. The Kodo Beat dd tt/Schroeder lt cones out at £35k. So these 10x-15X the entry ticket of Salvation/Terminator. The first 3 I've heard, and it would have cleared out my cash reserves, but was ready to cough up.
It's not my place to say my tt/arm is best, sorry if I was too presumptious, and obv I may not have heard each in most ideal circumstances, or even in my own system. But the Salvation/Terminator gave me things I didn't experience at the other dems. |
Spirit, thanks for your comments and I appreciate your candor. I've found it very difficult to ascribe sonic characteristics to components in the context of different systems.
In the US, the SME 20/12 is about $28K and the Kodo/Schroeder perhaps $35K, much less than the prices you quote. I'd be very curious to compare the much less costly, especially in England, SME 20/3 for about $15K and the Kodo/Schroeder table/arms directly to the Salvation in the same system. Perhaps also one of the Brinkmanns or Basis table/arm combinations for less than $15K.
I've heard perhaps 35 turntable/arm systems at various shows, dealerships and friends' systems costing between $5-50K and in my experience, I can not make any declarative statements about any of their performances separate from other components in those unfamiliar systems, let alone comparisons to other specific turntables. It is a very difficult exercise.
I'm only certain about the three turntables that I've had in my own system and their relative performance to each other.
I hope to perhaps hear the Salvation one day, but I've never even seen one. Your enthusiastic reports do help to inform others about its potential in other contexts. |
Peter, I'm glad we've calmed the waters on this one. Tbh, I should not have declared so forcibly the Salvation/Terminator "supremacy", and esp. based on price.
I'm a pretty picky customer, and have turned down way more things I've heard than I've gone ahead with, so for me to so find analog peace with this rig more than anything gives me peace of mind that I'm done on this particular merry-go-'round.
As I've tried to reiterate, I would have had a whole load of enjoyment had I plumped for the SME 20/12, TW Acustic AC3/Graham or Grand Prix Monaco/Triplanar.
Re getting to listen to one, in the US I guess only if you come across an owner. Vic the designer builds strictly to order, and it was my good fortune that I only live 90 miles from him to enable my visit to his studio. |
4orreal, point duly taken - no more price comparisons. Just that the Salvation/Terminator really is at the bottom end of pricing in the analog world, and the rig gives me things I haven't heard elswewhere. But point taken, I haven't listened side by side w/other uber rigs. Then again, it's pretty difficult to do any top level analog home comparisons anymore. Just got lucky to reach my measure of analog audio nirvana at a practical level. |
Hiho - come back! I realise I may have been gushing like a lovesick girl. What would you like to know specifically, that may make you temper your skepticism of me and these products? I''ll kick off by saying that getting a fuctioning direct rim drive tt w/magnetic bearing, and air bearing linear tracking arm, at a real world level is a triumph. That it sounds accurate and transparent, but also toneful and textured is a great bonus. And the aesthetics and reliability for a non mass-produced product is a bonus.
Help me out, what are your qs/concerns? |
I for one would not hold Spirit to the letter of his "15X" statement, just to its "spirit". This is coming from a cynic who does not believe there is much to be gained by spending any more than $30K on a turntable, and I would never spend even that much. Above approximate that price point, lets say up to $40,000, you are paying for bells, whistles, chrome plating, acrylic doodads, and beautiful hardwood. |
Spiritofmusic, I am not skeptical of the product's quality or your enthusiasm. I'm glad that you found something you like. But those familiar with me knows that I am weary of pornographic sonic descriptions, hence I no longer read audio review in its entirety. I know I am a minority here as audio is not about purchasing decision; it's about educating myself about the hobby which is entertainment in itself. Once I get pass the positive tone, I just want to know why and how or what you hear correlates with the product's features. What component or feature is responsible for a certain quality in the sound. For example, the lack of metal to metal contact vertically may contribute to blacker background or the incorporation of a better motor contributes a smoother rotation and smoother texture in the sound, etc.... I don't mean it to be so technical but just something for me to bite on instead of the gushing of a fanboy. Even an educated guess would still be more inducive for discussion. There are hundreds of posts already so I might have missed something of that nature and if so, I apologize. I was one of the earliest lurkers on Trans-Fi's site before he made it into a commercial product, especially his pages of Lenco mods that were entertaining and informative to read. And I'm happy that he found success and "worshiper" like you to reward his hard work.
You know what, just don't mind this curmudgeon and carry on. You're doing just fine. :)
_______
|
Hiho, I'll do my best. Linear tracking I'm sure we all agree is the theoretical best tech for tonearms mimicking the way the grooves are cut. But it's often too much of a tech challenge to bring about successfully. Well, I can say Vic has managed it in a package that is neater and less prone to operational issues than say what I've heard from the Kuzma Airline, and which at a real world price really gives an advantage over the many pivoted 9" and 12" arms I've heard. It seems to be tonally neutral and transparent. Now, this could mean a sound that is precise but bleached, but nothing could be further from the truth. It has a real start-stop quality like music in real life, but fantastic tone and texture, and this combination of speed and tonal colour is really addictive, and I for one won't be able to go back to a pivoted arm. This is all I believe to correct groove tracing, a short arm wand which is much less likely to be prone to vibrations, and a freedom from vibrations which transmits less colourations. Let me tell you, I so am unaware of tracking errors, that as I came to the lead out grooves of the first lps I listened to, the lack of side-end distortions meant I was really unaware the lp side was coming to an end.
So we have a tonally neutral, but full sound, with speed and transparency, and the elimination of so many analog like tracking distortions with no reduction in the analog "vibe", makes it pretty unique. IMHO.
So, onto the Salvation tt. Vic has spent many a long month finalising his motor to maximise torque, but maintain speed stability, and after many false dawns he found the solution, which is different in execution from say the superficially similar TT Weights tt's. I'm not privy to what these are, but I believe it's obviating the need for an O-ring, keeping the drive wheel small, and having the highest torque motor possible. Additionally, he has dispensed with a speed measuring feedback system like the Grand Prix Monaco tt (which samples the speed 1600 x/sec), preferring a totally analog system where the speed is set w/high torque, and is not sampled and varied accordingly. I believe many of the other dd alternatives have a low torque motor, with a feedback loop, to continually adjust speed. Vic I believe sets the speed at a high torque, and this does a better job at dealing with speed variations caused by stylus drag etc. The end result of this is a highly energetic sound, with very little speed drift, and hence a clarity across the frequency band, transparency resulting from microdynamics which are fully expressed due to maximised speed stability, defeating stylus drag variations, with no "jitter" introduced by digital speed measuring/hunting/adjusting microsecond to microsecond, and synergy with an excellent tracking arm. |
I recently purchased a Salvation-Terminator combo per suggestion of one of the posters in this thread. Cost is $4675 with shipping and insurance. |
Hiho, I've taken some time out as you asked to precisely describe what I believe makes the Salvation/Terminator so special. But so far, no response. I'm still waiting... |
Hey Dentdog. Let me congratulate you, and I really do hope you enjoy it. I think you're in for an interesting experience. I believe you also own Zu Def 4 spkrs like me? You're OBVIOUSLY a man of excellent taste! |
Dentdog, You just purchased the very best bargain in Modern Analog. Congrats. |
Spirit-thanks
Tom- thanks
The room prep is taking forever. Fortunately GIK and Jim Smith are nearby.
Regardless of the different takes on turntables, the T-Sal combo is a pretty good entry level tt. JK-it's likely to be the only one I ever purchase. For Vic to put together such a beautiful unit from scratch reveals no small bit of genius on his part.
The Zesto Leto and a pair of restored Mcintosh MC 60s will do the trick for me along with the BAT VK P10 SE.
Very nice thing about the Def4s is the efficiency. The MC 60s have some of the best transformers ever made, or so I gather. Doug at the Tube Store said the 60s were the most forward tube amps ever made by Mac.
So it's all tube with power to spare.
I gave it all a trial run with an NAD M55 CD player and holy mackerel, Kingfish!
Ready to get it together and burn it in all at once. |
Harold, you're not wrong. A total no brainer. The SQ well surpasses the cost.
Dentdog, was your purchase an end result of this thread, or would you have gone ahead anyhow? |
Tms0425 recommended.
Was thinking Thorens TD125 refurbished and he said it would be OK but I could just skip all the upgrades and go straight to a Trans-Fi. So I did.
Bear in mind this is my first music system in thirty years, can't compare other audiophile equipment.As Fat Bastard in Austin Powers said,"Everyone likes their own Brand".
Want to say to all the Agoners, the info brought to light through the discussions can be a great source for educating the decisions that go into a purchase. For all the costs, if one purchases wisely they can get their money's worth. |
Dentdog, I started with a Thorens (TD 321) 26 years ago and am now running a Salvation like TT/Terminator combo. My journey to my analog nirvana took 26+ years after having spent a hell of a lot money along the way, yours took, I guess just a moment, LOL.
Damn well done ! You just saved a fortune ;) |
Dentdog and Tms0425, can you please post your detailed views on the Salvation/Terminator soon please.
I started this thread to highlight what I believe to be a groundbreaking couple of products at a totally affordable real world price, and to encourage analog guys to purchase them.
And I've been successful, but w/only my comments I don't want to give the impression I'm in any way trying to awkwardly promote them, or have an underlying agenda. A couple of recent comments suggest this.
I don't want to be a voice in the wilderness. I mean, what is the point of this forum, if it's not to share views and user opinions? |
Dear Spirit, the bits about torque and feedback and all that stuff in your most recent long post are not logical. A high torque motor does not obviate the need for feedback. In fact, it may increase the need for feedback, because the motor is "in control" of the platter, moreso than in a low-torque/high-mass platter design, and there may need to be a mechanism to signal the motor that the platter is spinning too fast or too slow. Conversely, low torque per se does not increase the need for feedback. The belt-drive tt's that use low torque motors typically coupled with a high mass platter can get away with no servo on the premise that the inertial mass of the platter is "in control" of maintaining constant speed. No tt I know of has a higher torque motor than does the Technics SP10 Mk3, yet it certainly uses stringent feedback and a servo to maintain exact speed. It also has the heaviest platter of any DD tt. On the other hand, the L07D has a lower torque motor (but maybe not "low torque", if we were to define that term) and uses a rather "loose" servo feedback mechanism. Also, keep in mind that the inherent issues in DD, belt-drive, and rim-drive applications are different. Each tt is designed from the ground up by an engineer or a group of engineers (in the good old days) to do the job of spinning an LP. It is well enough to say that you are pleased with what you've got.
Harold, The L07D has a very "effortless" sound. Quiet and smooth, like butter. It gets there with a platter that is relatively high mass for a DD (can't recall the weight but between 12 and 20 lbs with optional peripheral ring), but is not high mass compared to the SP10 Mk3 (21 lbs), a coreless motor, a magnetically suspended bearing (in the vertical), and an incredibly conceived and executed plinth and tonearm mount which rigidly links the tonearm pivot to the bearing assembly using a large girder of stainless steel or alu to do so. Everything was attended to in its design in the sense that it is a complete unit right out to and including the specially designed headshell, unlike almost all other DD tt's that really consist of a motor/chassis which the end-user must mate with a plinth and tonearm of his further choice, with no particular attention paid to linkage. In fact, that latter unified design aspect is probably also of functional benefit in the Salvation/Terminator combo. The two were designed to go together. |
Lew.
Just for clarity, the LO7D uses the rotor magnets to remove 'some' of the vertical load on the thrust bearing (steel ball and hard plastic). It is not actually suspended in that there is mechanical contact. That said it is a really interesting approach where the rotor magnets have a dual purpose. Some very innovative thinking went into its design.
|
Yes, I was aware of the fact that the magnetic suspension serves to take some of the load off the bearing, but there is still some load. I was not aware of the mechanism, however. Thanks.
When I first got my L07D, before I had installed the platter, I was concerned that the bearing was "frozen", because the spindle could not be rotated by hand. I subsequently learned that the magnets push the spindle assembly full up against its stops, with no platter. The weight of the platter then forces the spindle/bearing assembly to "relax". |
Lew.
I to was alarmed with an apparently locked bearing when I received a LO7D to upgrade.
There are small plastic targets on the motor coil side of the PCB. These prevent the rotor from contacting the coils when no platter is installed.
The idea is so outside the box and likely predates the current crop of magnetic de-loading bearings.
|
The motor itself, of course, is a copy of the Dual coreless motor that preceded it. I think we've discussed this before. You or someone else offered that Kenwood had to change the design of the motor stators so as to avoid violation of the Dual patent, in their last several tt's. But sorry. This is OT, as it does not relate to the Transfi, another apparently excellent tt. |
Just for clarity, the LO7D uses the rotor magnets to remove 'some' of the vertical load on the thrust bearing (steel ball and hard plastic). It is not actually suspended in that there is mechanical contact. Hi Richard, Lewm, As I understand, there are (at least) 2 ways to implement a magnetically suspended bearing, one is a true suspension with no mechanical contact in the vertical axis, another is partial suspension, which only reduce the vertical load on the bearing (as in the L07D, and a couple other belt drive TTs). I always thought the true suspension method had a problem as the platter could go up and down, albeit only very slightly. To my way of thinking, since the platter can never be 100% balanced, there got to be some wobbling (again, microscopically) if there is no mechanical contact in the vertical axis, and that just cannot be a good thing. Would be interested on your thought on the issue! Thanks! |
Thekong.
At the risk of annoying a bunch of people ... I cannot see how a pure magnetic suspended main bearing can provide the necessary loop rigidity. I doubt that it is self compensating like say a captive air bearing, so it is prone to vertical movement. That induced by platter balance and drive issues and yes, stylus acceleration. My experiments with thrust pads has shown that harder always seems to be better. Putting something soft there has a deleterious effect. Mag force follows the inverse square law so it could be argued that it is stable under a varying load. This I doubt.
Happy to be proved wrong.
Sure a mag bearing is quiet but IMO it would compromise one of the fundamental design criteria of a TT. Absolute dynamic dimensional stability between platter surface and arm. It would be very interesting to place a DTI on the platter surface of a mag bearing TT and then apply a small vertical force on the platter. I suspect that the indicator will show vertical movement and possibly bounce.
The LO7D has a quite thin metal disc under its thrust pad. It is inevitable that with the weight of the platter it would deflect microscopically, but there is an adjustable bolt that contacts with the centre of this disc and the chassis. The bolt improves dynamic loop rigidity. If you own one, try loosening it to hear the negative effect of a tiny reduction of loop rigidity. (do this at your own risk!)
It could also be argued that the noise a mechanical bearing makes is evidence of movement. True, but correctly designed and polished they produce extremely low subjective noise levels.
I say all this from a theoretical perspective having not heard a mag bearing TT in suitable conditions. I am happy to defer to the superior knowledge of a mag bearing designer. Feel free to ignore everything I have just said, its just a bit of fun. |
Harold (nitb)
Thanks.
Just know that you listened to a lot of vinyl. I was running after kids.
But I saved a lot of vinyl, many early pressings of great artists. I do have a lot to look forward to. |
At the risk of annoying a bunch of people ... Hi Richard, very true, maybe we should take this offline, but before that, I would like to put in one last point: It would be very interesting to place a DTI on the platter surface of a mag bearing TT and then apply a small vertical force on the platter. I suspect that the indicator will show vertical movement and possibly bounce. You may not need a DTI at all! Not sure about their current models, but when a famous TT manufacturer first introduced their magnetic bearing TT, the agent proudly showed me how the platter could go up and down when vertical force was applied. If I remember correctly, the travel was close to, if not more than, 1/8 of an inch! And yes, it bounced a bit! |
Dear Lewn, Thanks for your very informative answer, now I understand what exactly is the Kenwood maglev: it´s like Clearaudio´s. After my very recent experience I also exactly understand what´s happening in the bearing, both mechanically and sonically. Very rigid link between TA pivot and bearing, despite its "partly" maglev. The maglev takes most of the platter´s weight, but not all. Hard metal tip´s contact to thrust pad is still very solid, so basically it´s a mechanical bearing. Must sound fantastic. Congrats.
However, one can´t stop Evolution as it keeps on going...
The Salvation maglev is an antithesis to any mechanical bearing, as far as I know. And this kinda true maglev quite literally takes the whole idea of TT bearing to higher level. I´m running this kind of a maglev, my implementation is different but the end result, both technically and sonically is basically just the same.
However, I must point out that the heavy Salvation platter compared to my lighter platter gives even more better performance. I fully understand this without having not listened to Vic´s TT.
The answer lies in a very dense & thus strong magnetic field.
This makes platter´s spinning very solid, there´s absolutely no wobbling, even in the microscopic level, I feel for sure after having heard this in my own system. I can assure that I must use much force to apply pressure on the spindle and it certainly does not keep bouching up & down after a push.
Evolution has come to the point that we are facing a new world in Analog Audio. This is as revolutionary as Einstein´s theory of Relativity a hundred years ago. A new idea, a new world. Welcome to 2014´s physics ;)
Oh yes, and astronomers just found gravitational particles. The Universe is much larger than we have known so far `Ö´
|
One more OT comment: I've played around with the Verdier tt, the grand-daddy of tt's with fully magnetic vertical suspensions. The magnets used are quite huge, as anyone can see by inspection. If you push down on the platter surface, there is quite a lot of resistance to depression. I doubt that a force sufficient to cause deflection of the platter is ever seen during actual use. And of course the horizontal bearing is a standard mechanical type and is quite massive. BUT some who are critics of the Verdier have cited deflection as an issue. We certainly don't want bouncing platters. |
I just wanted to point out to people with Kenwood Lo7d and similar turntables that have a magnet to unload the spindle
this magnet serves 2 purposes... one it unloads(weight) the spindle/platter 2 this magnet serves for a much reduction in torque ripple (smooths out rotation)...
I have 3 of the very Rare Teak tn400 maglev turntables as these were the first to incorporate this system this was done in the early 1970's
Lawrence
Fidelity_Forward |
Dentdog, Wise you saved your old albums. So did I and am very addicted to vinyl, just recently. The Salvation is more than a turntable. Vic have invented an analog time machine, to go for a journey back in time. ;) What a great pleasure, isn´t it. Especially the Golden Age. Digital still has a hard job to outperform good old Analog, despite its 3 decades evolution. |
Harold, I don't remember for sure where we were with the Salvation; does it use magnetics in both the vertical and horizontal plane, or not? If yes, do you mean to say that the spindle or vertical shaft from the center of the platter touches nothing? I just cannot imagine that that could work well, but especially with a rim-drive, where there is a force applied in the horizontal plane that would make the platter want to move in the direction of the drive wheel. So, I must not understand how it works. Can I find out more on the website???
Ummm... Have you been drinking the same Kool-Aid as Spirit, when you liken a turntable, any turntable, to the Theory of Relativity? But I see you winked. Good. |
I just went to the website where there is a crystal clear drawing showing how the maglev works. There are also photos to show step by step how to convert an older Salvation to maglev. Without question, the maglev works "only" in the vertical plane. The horizontal plane is maintained by a long heavy duty inverted sleeve bearing, which is oiled, not too different from the Verdier, if memory serves. I gotta say I am becoming more and more impressed myself with this tt, mainly due to the quality of construction and engineering at the given price point. I was already an admirer from afar of the Terminator tonearm. In theory, I do not care for rim drive, but again Vic looks to have dealt with most of the major issues. We should all buy one. Very cool. |
I had a look at the trans Fi web site.
This is a very nice TT and exceptional value for the modest cost . Knowing a little about machining expenses, I would say that it is an amazing achievement. Very much like the raw design. No unnecessary bling like many contemporary TTs
Further to the mag bearing. In the assembly instructions it says
" Confirm platter is levitated by pushing down & watching spring back"
This would appear to confirm my earlier comments about vertical compliance. Is this a problem? The reviews of the mag bearing would suggest not. |
Perhaps this is a naive question, but do the magnets that levitate the platter effect the cartridge in any way? Maybe the platter is shielded, but I've seen a cartridge with strong magnets smash into the spindle of an SP 10 due to the magnetic attraction. The result was a bent cantilever. I would think that if any magnetic attraction got through the platter, it would effect how the signal is generated in the cartridge. |
Peter, the magnets are situated at the base of the 2 to 3-inch vertical shaft upon which the platter rides, and they are in the form of a collar around the vertical shaft that looks to be less than an inch in distance from inner to outer boundary of the collar (like a large fender washer). I suggest you look at the excellent photos on the website. Anyway, the magnetic forces are in play way below the surface platter (at least 3 inches, at a guess) and only in the immediate vicinity of the spindle, i.e., under the LP label but not extending out under the playing surface. |
Dear Lewn, I have never taken acid, not even in the wild seventies... I don´t need it. Music itself has been my nectar since little boy ;) And I have never before been so confident about my TT. The Salvation maglev simply nails it. This is the breakthrough in my system after all these years.
And you are absolutely right, now it´s time to celebrate !
I´ll have a drink on all magnificent Kenwood and all Salvation TTs. Cheers !
Excuse me clumsy English as it´s not my mother language. I´ll try to explain later the function of the Salvation maglev how I see it. It´s very hard, like Theory of Relativity. D |
03-20-14: Richardkrebs
Lew.
I to was alarmed with an apparently locked bearing when I received a LO7D to upgrade.
There are small plastic targets on the motor coil side of the PCB. These prevent the rotor from contacting the coils when no platter is installed.
The idea is so outside the box and likely predates the current crop of magnetic de-loading bearings.
Not so out of the box as you claim. The motor must not be operated without the platter load or it can be damaged. It would be prudent to read the manufacturers advice in the L07D owners manual before tinkering with this TT. The manufacturer also advises that the L07D has both mechanical and electrical brakes that are engaged or disengaged depending on the power and operating switches and the platter should not be rotated when the mechanical brakes are engaged or damage will occur. |
Peter,
I would suggest, given the amount of intellectual interest you seem to have in this, and the number of turntables you now employ, that you purchase one. At the price I really do think, on the chance that it doesn't float your boat, you could find a buyer.
Of course there's some self interest here. It's thought here that you would be an extremely impartial evaluator and that's valuable to all of us audiophile nuts. What's more, you may find it a suitable, particularly on those opening and closing grooves.
As for myself, the approach of the last cut of an album gives me a dose of a~nervosa. I'm not living with that. I do like the skepticism and following questions you pose. Always smart to investigate the other side of the coin.
I would gladly provide you the opportunity to review the Trans~fi but being swamped at work keeps me close to home.
Warmest regards,
Dentdog |
quote] I've played around with the Verdier tt, the grand-daddy of tt's with fully magnetic vertical suspensions.[/quote]
Hi Lewm, not sure if there are different versions of the Verdier, but the latest ones do include a ball bearing, so not really true magnetic suspension!
If I understand correctly, the Verdier can be used without the ball bearing, but it seems Mr Verdier has chosen to include it in the latest version. |
Dear Lewn, J.C. Verdier introduced La Platine 30+ years ago, right ? It´s maglev is basically the same as Vic´s, it´s vastly bigger and the spindle is fatter for a very heavy platter, it´s just a different implementation ? Also Kenwood/Clearaudio type hybrid bearing is available. Fine. We all understand that a perfect magnetically isolated spindle does not exist due to instability of the magnetic field in the horizontal plane.
Now this kind of maglev, both Verdier´s and Vic´s, is a true maglev. The inverted sleeve bearing is oiled, actually that thin oil layer separates the metallic/delrin/nylon surfaces. Please note that the vertical very strong magnetic field takes most of the weight. The spindle is touching its environment very slightly thru oil layer. The tolerances must be very small to achieve extreme smooth spinning though. And the spindle actually does not touch the pushings inside the spindle well, just oil layer. So La Platine started all this ? No wonder why so many Platine owners here in AudiogoN Universe are happy with the maglev as such. Hats off to Monsieur Verdier.
I´m glad you will buy a Salvation ;) |
Interesting, what you say about the Verdier. I do know there are two completely different models, La Platine, and La Nouvelle Platine. I just read the assembly instructions for La Platine. They do apparently supply a "steel ball" which is installed in a well at the top of the vertical rod that accepts the platter, but then the manual says the ball is optional and recommends using no ball. This sure suggests the platter floats on the magnets, but I agree it's ambiguous. Apparently the ball is available for security. He does not say exactly why bother at all with the ball. Verdier is known to be a bit obscure, but I think the La Platine platter does float or can float. |
Yes, the La Platine can be used without the ball bearing in fully magnetic levitation mode! However, instead of for security reasons, I believe the ball bearing is there for establishing the loop rigidity as mentioned by Richard.
Apparently, Continuum does the same in their flagship Caliburn. According to Michael Fremers review, it used magnets to take care of most of the platters weight, but leaving around 6 lbs of load at the ball bearing for mechanical grounding.
Actually, the only reason that deter me from upgrading the Salvation with this latest magnetic bearing is the (at least in my perception) lack of loop rigidity. If it was implemented like the La Platine and Caliburn, I wouldn't hesitate! |
Dover.
What?
read my post again.
re LO7D
FYI, The mechanical brake acts on the platter itself.
With the platter removed, the sub platter raises up and contacts the plastic targets I mentioned. This is the apparently locked bearing that both Lew and I observed. The sub platter becomes free to rotate manually by gently pushing down on it.
Who said anything about powering the motor without the platter attached?
What the designers did with this TT is very cool indeed. |
Lewm/Thekong Following your interest in the Verdier, I pulled one out of the cupboard and set it up over the weekend for a quick listen. It is about 2 yrs old - so current version. It has the black lacquered base and arm boards. Lewm, before you ask "have you really" - here is a photo for you. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ogRZSjnyhasThe Verdier bearing is a conventional sleeved bearing in the horizontal plane and magnetic in the vertical plane. The ball and thrust pad is supplied as standard with the deck but the use of the ball & thrust pad is optional. If you install the ball & thrust pad the height of the bearing shaft is adjustable from under the TT so that the ball is only just touching and most of the weight is still borne by the magnetic bearing. I mounted an Audiomods arm and Goldring moving coil (was mounted on Technics DD )on the Verdier for an interim listen. The Verdier was a considerable level of performance above the SME20/SMEV/Lyra combination we had side by side for comparison. The Verdier had more punch, lower noise floor, better dynamics, better timing and was more transparent. It is quite impressive that the magnets support such a heavy platter. There is residual vertical movement in the platter if you press down but it is quite stiff. At some stage I will transfer the SME V/Lyra onto the Verdier for a direct comparison and try the ball & thrust pad again. On an earlier Verdier I preferred the ball in situ - more high frequency extension more grounded and better timing. The earlier Verdier that I had listened to had rigid feet whereas the current has sprung feet. My only criticism of the Verdier is the plinth and armloads are pretty mickey mouse - they appear to be painted mdf and very lightweight. The Verdier motor has settings for rubber belt and thread drive. The rubber belt supplied is about 3/16" thick, round profile, and I was disturbed by it's propensity to vibrate, no matter how I tensioned the belt. However it still sounded ok, much better than the SME20 but not up to the Final Audio VTT-1 that I normally run. |
I'm back in the room, boys! Well, for Salvation/Terminator to even be mentioned in the same breath as the L07D, it must be doing SOMETHING right.
As you all know, I'm no tech head, just just trying to interpret what Vic has said to me face to face, and via his website.
The magnetic bearing is bringing an interesting quality, which was initially frustrating, but now I realise is a major advantage - literally song to song on the same lp I can perceive different ambience/recording quality, more so than any other lp spinner I've auditioned. First of all I hated this, but as I realised this was a function of greater detail resolution, and just as importantly, reduction of colouration from the tt imparting itself, I can really concur w/Harold that the tt/arm is a true "time machine" to transport y/self and (my summing up) "open window" to listen thru. |
Re your criticism of the Verdier: That's what I have heard too, from users. The platter and magnets are a bit too massive for the "plinth", which is really just a flat piece of either MDF or granite. (I thought granite, but you've got one so you should know.) That coupled with the spongy feet causes the structure to be unstable; it wants to tip to one side or another and the rotation of the massive platter acts like a gyroscope. This should have been an easy issue to correct; substitute spongy feet for solid feet or pneumatic ones with a low resonant frequency and increase the mass of the lower structure to move the center of gravity closer to the shelf. But Mr Verdier is a traditionalist, to say the least. |
Actually I was referring to this La Platine by an Agoner:
http://cgim.audiogon.com/cgi-bin/vs.pl?vevol&1301604425&viewitem&o3
I would take his TT very seriously. |
Harold - The Verdier I tested is the same as Ct0517 except Ct0517 has the granito base. The motor is quite weedy - deliberately so, but many owners mod the motors and/or use aftermarket motors. It appears to be more reliant on inertia. I would rank the deck above the SP10mk3/L07D but below the Final Audio VTT1. The Verdier has a more cohesive sound when set up correctly, instruments/notes are rich and ripe, but the DD's have more accurate speed at the cost of some disaggregation of the music to my ears. The Final Audio VTT1 has the best of both. |
But look at that huge platter and magnets and look at the base (granito or no granito, but thanks for the reminder about granito). To me it cries out for more mass in the base; I would think you want the center of gravity to be well below the platter. |
On an earlier Verdier I preferred the ball in situ - more high frequency extension more grounded and better timing. Hi Dover, Thank you for your report! These are exactly the differences I have expected, and I would very much like to see Vic implement this in his Salvation! I will appreciate for your further comment once you have tried this on your new Verdier! But my guess is that similar differences exist even with the sprung feet. I am no engineer, but I think it is not that difficult, or expensive, to make an adjustable bearing shaft for the Salvation. I also agree with you on the MDF base and armboard! If I have the Verdier, I would change the base into a solid piece of slate, get rid of the sprung feet, and put the whole unit on a pneumatic table instead, pretty much exactly as Lewm has suggested! |
