I would like to offer another point of view on the Reso Mat. I and my friend tried out the Reso Mat on his highly modified slate plinthed Lenco, with a variety of arms including the Terminator. We felt that while the sound seemed to be cleaner, there was a loss of body / mid bass. Both of us felt that the compromise was just not for us. So, I suppose, as many other things in audio, this is system / TT dependent.
Then I have this question about over-damping with clamps / weights / vacuum on LPs. I always wonder how a LP can be over-damped, as it is supposed to be inert, and the cartridge is playing on the top side, in free air.
I can understand the clamping may causes stress on a warped LP. I can understand the interface between the LP and platter / mat may result in some vibrations reflect back to the stylus. There are certainly possibilities that they could affect the sound. However, I really dont understand how a LP can be over-damped.
Yes, if over-damp actually just meant a deadening of the sound, I can see that happening, but that is not really over-damp is it, at least not in the technical sense, right? |
I tend to agree with Lewms point regarding the slightly added distortion may sometimes be preferred by the audience.
I can share my experience on that. When I was using a relatively smaller speaker, I got pretty good bass with all the excitement coming with it. When I upgraded to a larger speaker, it was obvious that the bass went lower, more powerful, and with more ease, all very positive improvements. However, the excitement just seemed to diminish a bit. I suspected that the bass was actually stressing the smaller speaker a bit, and with the speaker being on the edge, it actually added to the excitement level! |
I very much agree with Lewm on the subject. While it was mentioned time after time what a giant killer the Salvation/Terminator combo was, there was not much direct comparison with other TTs other than the Orbe/SMEV.
While not a bad combo, the Orbe/SMEV (which I had), is just not on the same level as other highly respected TTs, such as the Rockport Sirius III and Capella II, Technics SP10 MK2 and MK3, Exclusive P3, modified slate plinthed PTP Lenco etc, just to mentioned a few that I have personally auditioned.
I am not trying to belittle the Salvation/Terminator combo, as I also got one from the manufacturer, even though I have yet to set it up. My good friend from Lenco Heaven is also a good friend of Vic, and he actually offered some useful suggestions toward the creation of the Tomahawk wand.
I have no doubt that it would be at the similar level (maybe higher) as a modified slate plinthed PTP Lenco, but saying it better other TTs mentioned above without any direct comparison would make me a bit skeptical.
The truth is, any of these TTs have their own characteristics, and it all depends on the owners preference to choose the one (or a few) that he likes.
Trying to promote a new brand with potentially high performance-to-price ratio is a good thing, but keep bombarding the audience with the same basic message time after time may actually have a negative effect. I have seen that happened with other products, which caused me to loss interest in even trying them out! |
The huge pins of the DIN-type connector are really not optimal for signal transfer, Hi Lewm, Why is that? Is that the standard DIN connector as seen on most tonearm, or is it a different type? There is a L07D which I may be able to get my hands on, so just want to learn more about it. Thanks! |
Just for clarity, the LO7D uses the rotor magnets to remove 'some' of the vertical load on the thrust bearing (steel ball and hard plastic). It is not actually suspended in that there is mechanical contact. Hi Richard, Lewm, As I understand, there are (at least) 2 ways to implement a magnetically suspended bearing, one is a true suspension with no mechanical contact in the vertical axis, another is partial suspension, which only reduce the vertical load on the bearing (as in the L07D, and a couple other belt drive TTs). I always thought the true suspension method had a problem as the platter could go up and down, albeit only very slightly. To my way of thinking, since the platter can never be 100% balanced, there got to be some wobbling (again, microscopically) if there is no mechanical contact in the vertical axis, and that just cannot be a good thing. Would be interested on your thought on the issue! Thanks! |
At the risk of annoying a bunch of people ... Hi Richard, very true, maybe we should take this offline, but before that, I would like to put in one last point: It would be very interesting to place a DTI on the platter surface of a mag bearing TT and then apply a small vertical force on the platter. I suspect that the indicator will show vertical movement and possibly bounce. You may not need a DTI at all! Not sure about their current models, but when a famous TT manufacturer first introduced their magnetic bearing TT, the agent proudly showed me how the platter could go up and down when vertical force was applied. If I remember correctly, the travel was close to, if not more than, 1/8 of an inch! And yes, it bounced a bit! |
quote] I've played around with the Verdier tt, the grand-daddy of tt's with fully magnetic vertical suspensions.[/quote]
Hi Lewm, not sure if there are different versions of the Verdier, but the latest ones do include a ball bearing, so not really true magnetic suspension!
If I understand correctly, the Verdier can be used without the ball bearing, but it seems Mr Verdier has chosen to include it in the latest version. |
Yes, the La Platine can be used without the ball bearing in fully magnetic levitation mode! However, instead of for security reasons, I believe the ball bearing is there for establishing the loop rigidity as mentioned by Richard.
Apparently, Continuum does the same in their flagship Caliburn. According to Michael Fremers review, it used magnets to take care of most of the platters weight, but leaving around 6 lbs of load at the ball bearing for mechanical grounding.
Actually, the only reason that deter me from upgrading the Salvation with this latest magnetic bearing is the (at least in my perception) lack of loop rigidity. If it was implemented like the La Platine and Caliburn, I wouldn't hesitate! |
On an earlier Verdier I preferred the ball in situ - more high frequency extension more grounded and better timing. Hi Dover, Thank you for your report! These are exactly the differences I have expected, and I would very much like to see Vic implement this in his Salvation! I will appreciate for your further comment once you have tried this on your new Verdier! But my guess is that similar differences exist even with the sprung feet. I am no engineer, but I think it is not that difficult, or expensive, to make an adjustable bearing shaft for the Salvation. I also agree with you on the MDF base and armboard! If I have the Verdier, I would change the base into a solid piece of slate, get rid of the sprung feet, and put the whole unit on a pneumatic table instead, pretty much exactly as Lewm has suggested! |
Dover,
Thanks you for mentioning the Callas kit for ther Verdier. A simple, yet effective, solution to the problem! |
Lewm, thank you for the detailed description! I was looking at some photos, and as you said, that DIN connector resembles the normal DIN found on most other tonearms, but I couldnt tell the size of the pins. Now, it is clear!
I will certainly see if I can really get one of these rare gems! |
It is ok, everyone has their own preference!
Just like me, I feel the Salvation is more or less like a modified Lenco with slate plinth and upgrade bearing. A true bargain at its price, excellent in certain area, but compromised in others!
It is certainly a good choice for someone who likes the characters of a modified Lenco, but lacks the necessary DIY skills, like me! |
Peterayer, Lewm,
I maybe one of the very few posters on this thread to have actually compared the Salvation (the earlier version with non-magnetic bearing) to a number of worthy contenders in length in my own system!
The other TTs included the Rockport Capella II (standard ruby bearing version) with 6000 arm; Micro Seiki 777 Air (air-bearing) with FR64S arm; Exclusive P3a with stock arm; and Technics SP10MKII (partially updated with some, but not all, new electrolytic caps) in stock plinth with SME V arm.
Before I got the Salvation, my friend also brought over a PTP/slate plinth/Jeremy Super Bearing Lenco with the Terminator arm to compare to the Rockport. This was documented in a thread in Lenco Heaven a couple of years ago.
First, I must stress again that the Salvation is a real bargain for its asking price! However, is it comparable to TTs 10-15X its cost? Yes and no!
In my experience, the Salvation sounds a lot like the highly modified Lenco mentioned above. As I understand, Vic also used a highly modified Lenco as reference during the development phase of his TT.
Performance wise, like the highly modified Lenco, the Salvation has incredible dynamics and explosiveness, which is its major strength against all other contenders. Yes, in this area alone, it probably could be compared favorably to TTs costing 15X more, at least to those that I have auditioned! I am not sure why, but it seems even more dynamic than the P3a and SP10 MkII in my system!
However, in areas such as background blackness, instrument layering within the sound stage, micro dynamics, and finesse, it lags slightly behind the TTs mentioned above. Over all, it just sounds slightly coarse to my ears as compated to the other TTs. Its characters may make it an excellent choice for Rock but probably not Classical. This may be due to the unavoidably higher vibration transfer in the idler/rim drive system, as compared to BD and DD.
No TT is perfect and fit for all users! If dynamics is of utmost important to you when choosing a TT, the Salvation will not disappoint! If finesse is important to you, then you should find a way to audition the Salvation before committing.
For me, if I could only have one TT, the Salvation would not be my top choice. Although I wouldn't feel too deprived if I could only have it! On the other hand, it is a very good TT to have for the right music / mood!
Of course, this is only IMHO, and YMMV! |
Lewm, my feeling is the modified Lenco and the Salvation are similar, and both lags slightly behind the other TTs in those areas mentioned. I want to stress that this is not day and night difference, but then, we are always talking about small differences at this level. I am very interested to know your impression on your Lenco vs L07D / SP10 MK III ! My friend is a moderator in Lenco Heaven, David, aka diawok. Just by the photos, the main difference between his and your Lenco is that his has a separate slate armboard. This is an old photo of the TT setup during the Lenco / Rockport comparison a few years ago http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f20/daiwok/Hi%20Fi/IMG_1817.jpgPeterayer, from you system thread, I see that you are using a full Pass Labs amplification system. I have some very interesting experience with the Pass Labs Xono and XVR-1, which I will post on your system thread. |
Hi Harold, right that I have not experienced with the maglev Salvation, and I also agreed it would be very interesting to do so! As mentioned before, the only thing stopping me is, rightly or wrongly, I am biased towards a more rigid mechanical grounding at the bearing.
If Vic is to offer something like the Callas kit mentioned by Dover, even as an extra cost option, which let me experiment on the effect of with and without ball bearing, I would not hesitate! |
Lewm, intested in you comment on the L07D vs SP10MKIII, but not to take this thred more OT, I will bring the discussion to your system thread instead. Thanks! |
