Any chance of further comments on the Salvation/Terminator? Esp from current users. |
Mike, aiming to put pictures when my updated Zu spkrs/rack arrives in the 'system' section of A'gon. I worked out that to get a bit of this non belt magic I'd have to save for a few years more to get your NVS (or The Beat/ Grand Prix Monaco etc), or buy the Salvation now, so no contest. However, my admiration for your 'take no prisoners' tt is v.high. I'm glad that I managed to get across the really positive hike in sound quality I'm getting over my previous tt, which had given me great service over 12 years with upgrades. What I find fascinating is that my trepidation in removing a signature colouration of belt drive (time smear bass invading the midrange) has led to a major improvement in all aspects across the spectrum. I'm amazed by the percussive impact that high torque speed stability brings, really combining all the natural warmth of analogue with the good neutrality and stability of digital. Additionally, the linear tracking arm is, no exaggeration, making lead out grooves as uncompressed and noise free as the start of lp sides. Wow! My tech description is a bit lacking, Peterrayer, but Vic has successfully engineered a way to drain vibrations away. A link to his process can be found on the 'Lenco Heaven' website-go to 'other components' then 'other turntables' then 'from Lenco to Salvation'. Redglobe, yes, I am using the Reso Mat which comes as standard with the installation. |
Vic has gone thru the Garrard 301/401, Lenco L77 and Technics SL1210 and SP10 with upgraded plinths on the way to perfecting the Salvation. Independent reviews put the Salvation ahaead of a tricked out Garrard 301.
Redglobe, I listen to a lot of 70s progressive and fusion, quite a bit of acoustic incl jazz and classical, so the Salvation has to work over a wide range of genres and remain consistent. It's without doubt the most impressive front end I've yet heard. |
Sgunther, I admire your total love for the Salvation/Terminator consigning the cd player out of your home, ha ha! The grand irony with me was that the cloying bass colouration which invades the mids on lp playback I had put down to the 'romantic warmth' of analog, and since cd playback until the mid 2000s always seemed sterile and clinical to me, it was always a welcoming euphonic colouration. However on acquiring the EMM Labs CDSA SE cd player finally I had digital with a really nice analogue vibe to it, and suddenly my belt drive tt (Michell Orbe/SME V) was in second place, mainly due to the EMM being so natural but without this colouration. Endless demos of belt drives (SME 20 and 30, TW Acustic Raven AC-3 etc) didn't provide a sound to definitively better the Orbe. Then after 2 years of investigating the idler drive/direct drive revival I've finally ended up with the Salvation, and without the bass time smear banished by it's direct rim drive, analogue replay is back in the box seat, relegating digital to it's rightful second place! However I still love the EMM and half my music collection on silver disc can't be found on vinyl, so she's staying. HOWEVER if tomorrow we all went back to pre-1983 and all my cd's were to be re-released on lp, hmm... |
Hi Redglobe, using a strobe shows no variation in quiet or heavily modulated passages. I'd love a Sutherland Timeline to put this to the ultimate test. Platter is up to speed a mere 3 seconds after start up and it takes substantial external force to slow the oversized heavy platter. This suggests high torque maintaining correct speed once set thru any groove modulation caused by stylus drag.
Re clamps, rings etc, there really is no need, the Reso Mat does away with the need for these. Counter intuitive I know, but there it is. |
Redglobe, I can't say whether I can be sure of hearing perfect pitch, I know classical and jazz musicians can. What I can say is that the Salvation is so speed stable compared to my belt driven Orbe that lead out grooves sound totally secure, and there is no wavering on piano note decay as lp replay goes on. |
Hi D, I bow to your preference in your system. Vic really believes that clamping, both central and periphery, deadens/dampens the sound, and certainly with the Salvation there appears no need to go beyond sole use of the Reso Mat, but all systems/listeners are not alike.
So, being such a fan of the arm are you giving serious consideration to upgrading to the Salvation as well? |
D, I've started learning v. fast with this rig; basically that one can have all the attributes of good vinyl ie tonality, dimensionality and transparency; with the advantages of good digital ie neutrality, stability and eveness of frequency response. How much is attributable to the tt only, and how much to the arm, I really don't know, since mine was a total upgrade as a package, whereas you will have upgraded to the arm before possibly to the tt. All I can say that for me the combination is a game changer, and I'd venture at least within a close call of tt/arm combinations 5-10x the price (in the non belt world that means custom replinthed 301s and SP10s, Dobbins The Beat, Grand Prix Monaco, Brinkmann Bardo, Wave Kinetics NVS, etc). |
Hi S, currently using Zu modded Denon 103. A real giant killer at it's price, but am looking at a few alternatives. One is the Decca London Reference, main issue with this is phono loading is 47kOhms (ie MM setting) and my current phono stage doesn't have this resistance. The other two are the Garrott P77i, favoured by the tt's designer; again this is 47kOhms. I am intrigued by the Soundsmith Straingauge SG-200; pricey but it's speed and neutrality should be a match made in Heaven for this rig. |
I'm currently using a 14g Zu 103 with no tracking issues, although arm must be set up carefully to deal with all carts. I think a fast neutral cart needs to get the best synergy. Hence my interest in the Soundsmith Straingauge. |
In respect of the Reso Mat, it really seems to work on the Salvation/Terminator rig, and Vic believes it'll improve any tt. Not sure how it'll deal with v. warped lps however. |
Hi Tom, we've been in email contact for a while. Thanks for the compliments on the review, I tried to get a balance of fact and hyperbole just right. Not sure I'd like to make a habit of writing reviews, though!
Personally I'm coming to the conclusion that the Zu 103 may be the weak link in the chain. I'm considering the Soundsmith retipping OC/CL/ Ruby cantilever upgrade $500+ to the Zu 103, top of the range Soundsmith Straingauge $6500, Decca London Ref $4500, Garrott P77i $500 or even resurrecting my old Transfiguration Orpheus. |
Sgunther, no, I'm a London boy, not an Atlantan. A little further away, but a lot closer to Vic (2 hours drive to bring the Salvation/Terminator over).
Isn't it always the way? Just as I'm melting into the sound of a vastly improved component upgrade, it's highlighting possible deficiencies in another (the cartridge).
So, the quest never ends: putting together a shortlist of carts to bring out further positives in this superlative front end. |
Sgunther, I certainly will. I'm veering away from MMs since a change to a phono stage allowing 47k and 100k needed, and my current one doesn't accommodate.
So, reinvestigating the Orpheus, may well upgrade stylus/cantilever on Zu 103, and will do an audition on Straingauge.
Back to Salvation/Terminator: it's neutrality is a bit startling and has highlighted need to get cart choice right. Just listening to Kate Bush 'Hounds Of Love' and the low end growl on my belt drive has been cleared up to reveal separate bass and synth. This extra detail is really aiding enjoyment, a fantastic consequence being much more intelligibility in the vocals. Piano rock solid, esp. decay of notes after hammer has struck. |
OMG! Consistent adjusting of tt level, cart vtf and careful maintainance of air supply to arm is really opening up the sound. This with bedding in of cart , 50 hrs+ now, is taking analogue to hitherto unknown levels compared to when I stayed settled with belt drive/pivoted arm rig.
I can't stress how much this is a game changer at the reasonable cost end of the market; I have no doubt that money no object engineering thrown at top end tts such as Grand Prix Monaco, Dobbins Kodo The Beat and Wave Kinetics NVS may provide that extra 5% of performance, but this is such a complete holistic sound that I'm really settled as my last tt/arm upgrade (cart/phono still an open question). |
Hi Peter, in no way am I claiming that the Salvation/Terminator outperform everything out there. That would be churlish since I've only heard a limited number.
To be clear, I bought my Michell Orbe with SME V arm back in 1999. At the time I feel it outperformed belt drives in similar price range, esp. the Linn Sondek LP12 (too coloured) and the Roksan Xerxes (too sterile). Over the next 10 years I continually updated the Orbe with Michell Never Connected power supply, Gert Pedersen plinth/armboard upgrade, internal rewiring to SME V, TT Weights outer ring and various mats. Having been a massive analogue advocate over the years, generally hating the sound of digital even into the 2000's, imagine my suprise when the EMM Labs CDSA SE cd player outperformed my tt in many respects even with it's many updates.
This led me to investigating a fair number of pricey, fantastically engineered tts such as SME 20 and 30, TW Acustic AC3 and various Clearaudios. All performed somewhat better than the Orbe, but not enough for a clear knockout, and not enough to put digital back in it's place.
Reading about idler/direct drive in last couple of years interested me in that colourations in the timing domain of belt drives might be contributing to my dissatisfaction.
Not totally sure after hearing the Brinkmann Bardo DD (precise, but not overly rhythmic) and Technics SL1210 DD (a little dry) I came across the Trans Fi tt/arm, and within moments knew I had gotten to a sound well beyond my Orbe, and ahead of competing belt drives.
It's such a compelling sound eradicating the long term colouration that I took for granted as the 'romance' of vinyl, but if anything enhancing vinyl's addictive holistic nature, and actually bringing vinyl closer to the positives demonstrated by the EMM cd, with none of digital's downsides.
Now I'm not going to be able to hear the Monaco/Beat/NVS, mainly since they're not easily available in the UK and are 5-10x price of the Salvation/Terminator and yes I know these are DDs, but my deep instinct is that this tt is going to be in their ball park at least, at a level that virtually all can afford here. |
Dhcod, I think you'd find that my Salvation/Terminator is much more in your Shindo 301 territory than the Monaco region. Vic the designer deliberately went for a non digital feedback/analogue set speed control for the motor. I am of the belief that continual speed hunting by DDs like the Monaco result in a kind of jitter appearing as a glassy colouration, very much like the worst of digital.
The Salvation is direct rim drive which Vic has derived from the idler principle of Garrards/Lencos. It is high torque, non feedback high rpm motor which sets speed and is v. difficult to vary via groove intermodulation resistance.
It differs mainly from the Shindo in using slate for plinth vibration control rather than built up plys.
Amazingly, totally eliminating the main thumbprint of belt drive ie time domain smear bass colouration clouding midrange has enhanced vinyl's superiority over digital.
IMHO, it is paradoxically closer to the best of digital, but has enabled vinyl to surge well ahead.
A matter of 'so close, and yet so far'. |
Peterayer, exactly my point. My move from belt drive is not the solution you ultimately have settled on. Undoubtedly I'd have been happy at some stage with an upgrade to the Orbe, had I not managed to hear well executed rim drive first. I'm pretty certain DD is not where I would have ended up, and I don't think it's any coincidence that after stellar DD auditions you kept the faith with belt drive.
If you do get a chance to hear the Salvation, or even well executed modded idlers like the Shindo 301, take it, and see how they stack up against your SME.
I'm also coming to the conclusion that the Terminator air bearing linear tracker is having a massively positive synergy with the Salvation, and honestly don't ever think I'll part from this rig.
Cartridge/phono stage? Now that's a whole other discussion! |
Lewm, I completely take your point. I've spent the last couple of years listening to a handful of excellently engineered tts with various drive technologies, and within each I've heard common audible traits. All the belt drives I listened to (my Orbe/SME/TW Acustic/Clearaudio) had tonality in spades and good soundstaging, but afflicted by time domain bass smear leading to an obscuring of detail, blunting of timing, and homogenising of sound. The DDs I listened to (Brinkmann Bardo/Inspire Monarch modded Technics SL1210/modded Technics SP10 Mk2) had dynamics and propulsion, but a whitening of sound and lack of true relaxation. The idlers I listened to (modded Garrard 301/401/Lenco L75) had the tonality of the belt drives, and the dynamics of DDs without the time smear colouration. However there was some extra bass warmth which veered away from true neutrality.
Vic's direct rim drive belongs more in the idler camp, but he has admirably managed to eradicate the one idler weakness to provide a tt with positives from all technologies.
One caveat is that I cannot divorce the effects of his unique arm since it comes as a package, and I do believe this really boosts the neutrality of the overall sound. |
Atmasphere, Vic is particularly proud of his motor since vibrations introduced into the platter-stylus interface was always the bane of idlers of old.
To engage the rim wheel, one just turns the lever on the motor pod and a delrin wheel spinning at 300rpm contacts a delrin stripe bonded into the heavy outsized aluminium platter, bringing it up to correct speed in seconds. Turning the lever again disengages the rim wheel. In effect the pod tilts to engage/disengage contact.
I'll be darned if I can feel any vibrations in the pod as the rim is spinning. Vic has used clever engineering in the pod base and engagement lever to drain vibrations away from the platter, and I feel he has succeeded. There certainly appear to be no negative colourations or obscuring of details that would suggest vibrations reaching the stylus.
To illustrate this, I've just finished listening to a couple of Rush tracks that I thought I knew backwards: on "Stick it out", Geddy Lee's vocals are clearly double tracked and you can hear each layer clearly; on "Cut to the chase", vocal phrasings are subtly but unmistakenly heard at the back of the mix. On my old belt drive Orbe, none of this was evident. |
Just installed Vic's new magnetic bearing upgrade to his Salvation tt, now ZERO physical contact btwn platter and plinth, and newest Tomahawk wand upgrade to his Terminator T3Pro arm.
ANOTHER leap fwd. Initial impression, much greater bass propulsion and texture. No mean feat of what is already a near SOTA contender, and giant slayer at anywhere near the price. |
Contact with Johnjc pushed me further in the direction of buying the Salvation/Terminator, a decision I consider the best I've made in audio. The only thing is that it's revealed a possible need to examine further need to upgrade cart/phono since these might be lagging behind the near state of the art performance of the tt/arm. |
There seems to be a lot of skepticism re use of the Resomat, and with good foundation; it seems all tts utilise some form of clamping/peripheral ring/vacuum hold down to force the lp flush with the platter surface.
Vic's use of the Resomat flies against conventional wisdom, and all I can say is that in conjunction with the rest of the system it really seems to work. Indeed using a clamp without the mat only leads to clouding of sound quality. But experience in other systems may have the opposite result.
Try both and decide. |
One amazing aspect of the Salvation/Terminator combination, as a result of it's superior transparency and neutrality, is it's ability to resolve the differences in recording quality between lps from the Golden Age of audio (50's to early 70's) and those from this date to the present day.
All the natural tonal warmth, ambience and presence of albums like Yes 'Close To The Edge', Miles 'In A Silent Way' etc are presented in full glory, whereas the limitations of recent lps eg Muse 'Black Holes And Revelations', Rush 'Clockwork Angels' is revealed for the brickwalled abominations that they are.
But even with these, the Salvation/Terminator presents limitations in the most pleasant way possible, making this a 'warts and all' transducer but not at the expense of ever being unlistenable - neutrality and sweetness in equal measure. Unbeatable! |
I agree Lewm, it's just that this tt seems particularly adept at picking out spatial cues that really add to the presentation of tonality and transparency between different recordings. Other tts have done this as well, but often at the expense of really making poorly recorded lps sound v. uninviting. This isn't the case with the Salvation/Terminator. I'm still amazed that the removal of bass colouration and arm tracking issues has revealed so much hidden info with no reduction in the sweet spot that vinyl hits. In all the best blend of vinyl tonality with cd like precision I've yet heard.
My only experiment with a clamp/outer ring with this tt was way inferior than the undamped Resomat, so this is a keeper. |
Doing my best to keep this thread moving. The only downside I'm experiencing is an ABSOLUTE need for the setup, more precisely the Terminator air bearing arm, to have unimpeded air supply (v. easy to achieve by careful placement of the pump hose), and for the Salvation to be perfectly level and isolated to the max against vibration. This latter function I'm finding harder to succeed with: level is not so problematic, but a flexing in my wooden floor which was never an issue with my Orbe/SME V is a devil to contend with in this setup, causing all manner of tricky skipping (but only when dropping the cart, not during the middle of playback).
I'm v. close to installing an isolated wall shelf which will take all floor borne vibrations out of the equation.
Notwithstanding this, the tt/arm combination continues to make my jaw drop. It's doing an amazing job of removing the coloured sonic signature of time smear that no belt drive I auditioned could totally eradicate, in effect marrying the absolute advantages of analog warmth and digital precision into an experience well beyond the best turntables or cd players that I've ever heard.
And I still contend that with this setup, if it gets even 10% of what uber DDs like the SP10 Mk 3 or NVS do, it must be the bargain of the century. My hunch is that it is well beyond 10%, quite poss 90%+. Any established company would charge 5-10x it's asking price, just to cover the thousands of hours of R&D that would go into a new direct rim drive motor and linear tracking arm. |
Peter, I understand the tenor of your post. No, I haven't heard all these tts so shouldn't make such sweeping statements. I have heard the SME 20 and 30, TW Acustic AC3, Brinkmann Bardo and La Grange, Clearaudio Innovation, Grand Prix Monaco, and of course my tricked out Michell Orbe.
As you know there is little to no chance in the UK to hear the Continuum, Walker, Da Vinci etc.
Ok, I'll refrain from labelling the Salvation above these, but I have to say the top end belt drives I have heard could not beat the combination of positives presented by the Salvation, and the two DDS I heard got closer, but still no cigar.
Have you heard them yourself?
Are you in/ever visiting London? Fancy a visit? |
It's a strange irony that my push away from belt drive is the direct result of finally getting digital that I really liked to listen to. My current EMM CDSA SE cd was such a step beyond my previous Orbe tt, that analogue for the first time wasn't my first choice of listening. However I was still acutely aware of digital's shortcomings in the areas of tonal density and transparency of soundstage.
Imagine my delight in feeling I'm getting the best of both worlds now with current tt.
Peter, it sounds like you've achieved the same with your SME 30/V-12.
Totally agree with you, that this is all system synergy dependent: my system is really starting to sing with the introduction of 4kVa balanced power isolation and SpatialComputer Black Hole bass node correction in my room.
Great to be able to get off this particular tt upgrade path. |
Did consider Ttweights, but with no distributor in UK, was reluctant to go ahead w/out audition.
From what I've read comparing Salvation to Gem Ultra, the Salvation motor and execution is at least on a par, the integral air bearing linear tracking Terminator T3Pro arm makes the Trans Fi choice possible the biggest bargain in high end tts, at third price of Ttweights.
But I'm sure Larry's tt sounds great, the rim drive concept imho really does have major advantages over belt drive. |
Redglobe, I'm not sure there is an article that compares the Salvation to Ttweights. One thing I can say is that although the two designs are similar ie direct rim drive, Vic the designer of the Salvation assures me his motor is very different ( I assume superior?) to that of the Ttweights.
I do know Vic investigated the Teres Verus and in the end scrapped the idea of using it, preferring to build one up from scratch.
Vic's main advantage is being able to provide very stable, very high torque to the massive oversized platter (it is next to impossible to slow the platter manually without using lots of pressure, v. different from my low torque belt drive), at the same time effectively draining the vast majority of vibrations away from the platter hence minimising rumble.
The day to day result of this is only occasional need to tinker with speed settings, never mid lp, and a soundstage so open and transparent that no subjective evidence of rumble is present.
I still contend the tt/arm combination is the biggest bargain in the high end today. |
Dgarretson, I have to agree with you. I can't add to your technical analysis, but this arm is a MARVEL of tracking and neutrality.
Before buying it, I was really unsure about the maintenance issues of using an air bearing linear tracking arm. It's only downside is a real need for perfect level, freedom of air supply (reas. easy to achieve), and isolation from vibration (a little more tricky, I'm having to resort to a wall shelf to eliminate floor borne disturbances).
However it's upsides are really decisive. Dominant amongst these is unbelievable tracking esp. towards end of side/lead out grooves: I can honestly say that there is a real stability of sound reminiscent of the best of digital, that means cart tracking toward the end of lp play is as good as when the stylus hits the grooves as an lp side starts to play. |
Stringreen, I understand your reservations re Trans Fi being a small name with no substantial reputation like the names you have mentioned. This is very true, although Vic has been making his arm for several years now, and this has proved to be reliable and extremely good VFM. The Salvation has been selling for over a year now and is developing a similarly positive reputation. Additionally, it is a cottage industry, Vic can only build to order, and indeed he wouldn't be able to cope with a mountain of orders.
One thing that VPI, Sota, SME etc. won't be able to provide is a paradigm busting approach to getting the best out of analogue, technology that emphasises all it's positive attributes with few of the negatives associated with more traditional technologies that these established companies are limited to offering.
But you pays your money and you takes your chances...I did, and haven't looked back. |
Hi everyone. As I've moved to non-belt technology for listening to lps, I'm 'getting' what all the afficionados of DD, idler and rim have been trying to promote over the last few years, namely that a radically different presentation for lps is possible, removing certain colourations to open up the full bloom of analogue.
This tt, along with my full range driver, xoverless Zu spkrs, and move to balanced power are finally giving me a sound I can totally relax with and not feel compelled to upgrade further.
In respect of the tt, I'm confident I'll never go back to belt drive again. |
I'm not here claiming the Salvation is going to sound better than any other tt out there. As I explained before I'm never going to hear even 10% of top end tts out there.
But I do feel that the direct rim drive/air bearing linear arm technology v. likely provides a presentation different to that from the usual belt drives, surely we can agree on this?
What I'm trying to promote is that maximising timing and torque by non-belt technology, together with minimising tracking errors via linear tracking technology, provides a sound so fundamentally different than any other belt drive/pivoted arm combination that I've auditioned, at a real world price, that I just want to spread the word.
Yes, combining tonal accuracy, transparency and precise speed control is paradigm busting - it's so surreal to hear the best attributes of analogue and digital sound presentation in the same package.
Stringreen, TOTALLY understand you not wanting to burn your fingers twice. |
Lewm, I think you would very much "get" the Salvation if you heard it, since you're coming from a change to idler/dd away from belt drive (Lenco L75/SP10 owner if I'm not mistaken?).
All I can say is that no matter which high end belt drive I tried and liked (SME 20, 30, TW Acustic AC3, Brinkmann LaGrange, Clearaudio Innovation etc) the mid/upper bass colouration was present, reduced compared to my tricked out Michell Orbe, but nevertheless a constant.
On listening to the Salvation, this colouration GONE, with a consequent improvement in sound produced across the board.
I know that Vic has spent hour upon hour devising a way to drain rumble away from the platter, and if the wide open transparant soundstage is anything to go by, he has succeeded admirably.
Two caveats: one, I can't divorce the effects of the arm from the tt since it came as a package; and two, this extra cleanliness to the sound eliminating euphonic timing colourations may not appeal to the majority. Indeed I was wary I would grow to be unsure about the sound, but the combination of the best of digital and analogue attributes is really beguiling.
Redglobe, you have to really alter the VTA of the arm to eliminate use of Resomat, but on correct a-b, use of the mat is a winner by miles - much greater focus and smoothness to the sound. |
Regarding the Reso Mat, yes it does seem counter intuitive that something which allows freedom of the lp to not be flush flat when being played can only add to soundstaging and dynamics issues.
But maybe this needs to be looked at in reverse. Maybe use of clamp and outer ring does indeed maximise flattness, but if it introduces strain and overdamping maybe this negates this advantage. Whenever I used clamps/mats/rings on my Orbe, somewhat better soundstaging resulted, but with a pinching of dynamics and musical energy.
All I can say there is no hint of overdamping just a surplus of musical energy coming thru on the Salvation. |
Absolutely my point Lewm, my Orbe was improved in some ways with clamping/periphery rings/mats, but in other ways, life, energy and dynamics were stifled.
Another example of Vic thinking "outside the box" and going down a route not followed by any other tt designers.
It amuses me that near state of the art sound can be had with such simple engineering approaches compared to the seriously OTT vacuum hold down/clamping/fixing of lps with pumps/suction/heavy rings offered by top end tt manufacturers like Continuum, Walker, Clearaudio etc.
An amazing result of eliminating fixings is quite the liveliest, most naturally exhuberant sound I've ever heard from my lps.
However I have a couple of devilishly warped lps to play soon, will report my thoughts then (thinking of investing in a Vinyl Flat). |
Tm, get on with it! LOL! The sound is just sublime. With my RWA BL batt powered Soundsmith Straingauge cart, the new magnetic bearing modded Salvation, and most recent Tomahawk wand update to the Terminator arm, really puts this analog rig up there.
I've heard the Grand Prix Monaco tt/Triplanar arm, SME 20/12, TW Acustic RAVEN AC3/Graham, all at 15X the price of Vic's rig, and they all fall short. IMHO.
The greatest bang for buck in analog, and prob high end audio as a whole. |
Redglobe, I think you'll find first and foremost, it is the design of the motor that minimises transmission of rumble to the platter, draining it diametrically away via the feet and operating lever.
Then on top of this by raising the lp off the platter a few milimetres onto inert points, it minimises further vibrations reaching the stylus via the lp itself.
So maximum torque, speed stability, resistance to stylus-groove modulation is provided by the direct rim drive engineering; stable, neutral tracking across the WHOLE lp side is provided by the air bearing linear tracking arm; and potential downsides of transmission of rumble are minimised by deliberate motor design and interruption of continuous flow of energy by the resomat.
All that needs to top this off is something like the Vinyl Flat to tame overwarped lps which might not sit well with the resomat, moderately warped lps have been no problem so far.
My perception of pitch, I'm really not too sure how well developed it is. I have to say classical music esp. piano seems to be v. truthful. The tt seems to get the full percussive impact as the hammer strikes to create the leading edge of the note (direct result of v. high torque motor), and no wavering in decay as the note dies away (direct result of minimal time domain 'smear' caused by ultra accurate speed control). fade outs involving acoustic instruments are v. close to as waver free as digital.
One of the biggest improvements I wasn't even expecting to get is a massive improvement in vocals. Voices are much more solid and intelligible, more centre stage than ever. |
That's a REALLY good question. I'm not sure if I've got the correct answer, and I wouldn't want to give you any BS.
All I can say is that there appears to be minimal wavering on piano notes or loud passages/crescendos where undoubtedly groove stylus drag is likely to be at it's greatest.
I have checked strobe speed during such passages and there appears to be no slowing, visually or aurally. However a Sutherland Timeline may provide another story. Maybe one day.
What appears to be happening is that the resomat is one with the platter and there is enough solid contact between resomat and lp to resist slipping from groove friction/inertia. Vic has craftily made the spiked cones of the resomat of the same material as goes into lps so thre may be a natural adhesion between the two. |
Vic is definitely of the opinion that no matter how much you try to fix a warped lp to the platter via clamps/rings/vacuum hold down etc, the v. nature of the warp, being fixed and unforgiving will mean that the warp will 'fight' the flattening and push against the fixing somewhere in the grooves. At some point obv. the stylus will hit an undulation and leave you with the same problem of tracking, perhaps exacerbated by the fact the lp is now overly fixed due to being held artificially static. Vic's o'all conclusion is that less artificial fixing of the lp to the platter will prevent such non-flat 'hotspots' being an issue ie if you cannot have a totally flat lp, accept the fact and make do with less restriction. Who knows how much groove stress/distortion is introduced by over fixing a bendy lp to the platter, against it's 'will' (lol!)
Please note, I am only surmising what is poss. going on here, this tweak like all others must be reas. system dependent. |
So, can we all agree that the Resomat will be system specific? With the Salvation in my set up it appears to work better with than without. In others the opposite will often be true. At c.$50 a shot, surely it can't harm to try? |
Lewm, that's a very good point. Especially with all in one cdp's (and carts) it's increasingly getting harder and harder to make an audition, let alone a choice to buy.
I'd have to ensure a no quibble return policy if dissatisfied.
From reading between the lines, at a reasonable price point, the Eera Tentation and Neodio NR22 do seem to be getting plaudits from die hard analogue nuts who do claim they get close to analogue tonal density and discrimination as the tts they are running. Both are championed by true fans of analogue.
But yes, this could all be misleading. |
This thread is taking a, shall I say, overly fastidious direction. I'm a little suprised the Resomat is taking up so much discussion, it's a $50 add on. The Salvation can run without it, so those unsure, for good reason about the Resomat's pracicality, could always use the Salvation with traditional clamping methods. Vic's Salvation design predates the Resomat by a year, he only added it later. |
Hi Lewm, my apologies if my prev. comment sounded like I was showing lack of patience, nothing could be further from the truth. I fully understand that I appear to be in a party of one as someone who has heard it and then bought it. I know that there are other owners out there lurking, but maybe not bothering to put finger to keyboard.
No, in a gentler way what I was trying to say was that Vic developed the tt/arm without the Resomat to begin with, and it sounded fine then. I'm sure some careful experimentation may lead to outcomes where clamping etc. will lead to performance hikes beyond the Resomat. Me? The Resomat seems to do a great job in the synergy of the whole setup, so I don't feel too much need to tinker.
I can tell you the cessation of desire to tweak is a MASSIVE compliment to this tt, I'm so glad I'm getting off this particular upgrade merry-go-round (going in ever increasing dizzy circles since 1995!).
My other comment really was just suprise that the mat is generating most comments when it's the least significant contributor to the overall sound alongside the direct rim drive motor, and the arm implementation. |
Redglobe, on examing the tt/platter, I'm confident it could support the outer ring. There's about an inch and a half between the outside of an lp to any obstruction eg arm pod.
But there is one practical issue. The Terminator arm is fixed horizontally over the platter, and a bar runs parallel with platter just an inch above the apex of the points of the Resomat (will be similar height above platter if one removes mat and lowers vta of arm to compensate).
In effect one has to slide lp horizontally onto platter spindle, it can't be dropped on vertically from above conventionally since arm apparatus is fixed.
It may be quite a struggle to slide ring on easily without catching lp inadverdently, this may be ultimately too frustrating in the long run.
In fact, this is the only downside of the whole rig, a need to emulate a little limbo dancing with the lp when placing it on the platter/spindle, and removing it later. It just can't be done in a rush, or when distracted. |
Hi Pete, the arm wand sits over an inch clear to the right of the platter when not in use/ready to cue up, so no real chance of damage unless you're overly clumsy.
What is more of an issue is that the arm rig is fixed over the platter ie can't be swung away, and the tube the arm wand slides horizontally along from right to left as lp plays sits just over an inch above the record.
This means that an lp must be in effect slid horizontally, then dropped over the spindle, not for the faint hearted or when you're distracted.
This takes some getting used to, but the main downside is if the lp is a tight fit on the spindle - in these circumstances it takes some seconds to tilt and twist it away so as not to release so fast it clips the tube. |
Listening intently to the Salvation/Terminator. It's not a perfect component by any means, but picking up plenty of auditory clues which heighten the illusion of reality, certainly when compared to my belt drive. Firstly, snare drum - I can really hear the impact of stick on skin followed by sizzle of snare wires. As a drummer myself, I'm really getting an authentic feeling for this most difficult of instruments to replicate. And secondly, really hearing the ambience and reflections in concert halls in live recordings.
Now, I know all this is perfectly possible with excellent belt drive as well, it's just that I'm really happy such an uncoloured revealing sound is in my living room as close to reality, certainly at it's price level, and maybe well beyond, I'm likely to get. |
Sgunther, I totally agree with you re the Salvation/Terminator being on the edge of state of the art. I've not heard more OTT designs like the Wave Kinetics NVS and Lumenwhite Mystere, but I'm confident Vic's babies can hold their head up high in this company. And at it's price point, I'm confident it is without peer.
I'm in the middle of installing/bedding in new spkrs, so hunt for ultimate cart/phono stage may have to wait. No problem, my Zu modded denon 103 is performing VERY well.
I'm soon to retip with Paratrace stylus and upgrade with white sapphire cantilever to both my Zu and old Transfiguration Orpheus, and will be auditioning the Tom Evans Master Groove phono stage as poss. upgrade to my Groove Plus SRX.
But I'm most curious to hear the Soundsmith Straingauge SG-200, and final choice will come down to these options.
I'm fairly confident Peter's Straingauge may be just the ticket since it is fast, transparent and neutral, just the attributes the tt/arm display in spades.
So glad to hear from you seconding my positive appraisal of this kit, in my system a real game changer. |
Yes Pete. I've been running Zu Definitions Mk2s since 2007, and have moved up to the new Def4s. I realise statements like 'game changer' could be viewed as a little over the top, but when your world view of audio is changed radically and irreversibly, that's the best label I can use.
My 3 'game changers' are, firstly the Zu spkrs, going to full range, xoverless drivers really set the scene for fully enjoying density of tone and unrestricted dynamics in a speaker system for the first time, now fully realised in the new Def4s; secondly, going to full balanced power with a 4kVA transformer, took me beyond the clarity of my previous audiophile power conditioner, and for first time gave me unconstricted dynamics allowing that 'after midnight' sound all day long; and now, moving away from belt drive/pivoted tonearms to direct rim drive/linear tracking tonearm, IMHO really highlighting all that's positive with analogue, but for first time combining it with the many virtues of digital, to almost be a new medium in itself. |
