Spirit, Most of us are in no position to join you in praise of the Salvation, because most of us, nearly all of us, have not seen or heard it, But I think we get the idea that you like it. However, you are correct to note that many of us, including me, have been straying OT. Sorry for that.
Keep in mind what I noted earlier in this thread, the Resomat is a duplicate to a platter used in a very early and budget level Transcriptors turntable. I don't recall the model name or number. Someone published a photo of the tt on Vinyl Asylum a week or two ago, and I was shocked, shocked I tell you, to see the spitting image of a Resomat serving as the entire platter. Very likely the Transcriptors "influenced" Vic's thinking, to say the least. |
Hi Lewm, my apologies if my prev. comment sounded like I was showing lack of patience, nothing could be further from the truth. I fully understand that I appear to be in a party of one as someone who has heard it and then bought it. I know that there are other owners out there lurking, but maybe not bothering to put finger to keyboard.
No, in a gentler way what I was trying to say was that Vic developed the tt/arm without the Resomat to begin with, and it sounded fine then. I'm sure some careful experimentation may lead to outcomes where clamping etc. will lead to performance hikes beyond the Resomat. Me? The Resomat seems to do a great job in the synergy of the whole setup, so I don't feel too much need to tinker.
I can tell you the cessation of desire to tweak is a MASSIVE compliment to this tt, I'm so glad I'm getting off this particular upgrade merry-go-round (going in ever increasing dizzy circles since 1995!).
My other comment really was just suprise that the mat is generating most comments when it's the least significant contributor to the overall sound alongside the direct rim drive motor, and the arm implementation. |
Spirit,
The Salvation is very appealing to me because of my positive experience with the TTWeights GEM, rim drive. The short coming of the GEM is the independent tone-arm pod which would make a challenge using the T3 Pro.
My interest in the Salvation is its compatibility with the outer ring that I have. Would it fit on the Salvation? It is 13 3/4" in diameter and 7/8" tall (this is the overall dimension with the setting disc. It is removed during play.). The ring can be viewed on the TTWeights website (it is the most massive version).
Your feedback would be greatly appreciated. |
Redglobe, on examing the tt/platter, I'm confident it could support the outer ring. There's about an inch and a half between the outside of an lp to any obstruction eg arm pod.
But there is one practical issue. The Terminator arm is fixed horizontally over the platter, and a bar runs parallel with platter just an inch above the apex of the points of the Resomat (will be similar height above platter if one removes mat and lowers vta of arm to compensate).
In effect one has to slide lp horizontally onto platter spindle, it can't be dropped on vertically from above conventionally since arm apparatus is fixed.
It may be quite a struggle to slide ring on easily without catching lp inadverdently, this may be ultimately too frustrating in the long run.
In fact, this is the only downside of the whole rig, a need to emulate a little limbo dancing with the lp when placing it on the platter/spindle, and removing it later. It just can't be done in a rush, or when distracted. |
Spirit, during the loading of an LP, what kind of protection does the stylus have? It sounds from your description as though the cartridge is exposed to the LP being slid in horizontally. Is this correct? And if so, are you ever nervous about accidentally hitting the stylus and snapping the cantilever off? |
Hi Pete, the arm wand sits over an inch clear to the right of the platter when not in use/ready to cue up, so no real chance of damage unless you're overly clumsy.
What is more of an issue is that the arm rig is fixed over the platter ie can't be swung away, and the tube the arm wand slides horizontally along from right to left as lp plays sits just over an inch above the record.
This means that an lp must be in effect slid horizontally, then dropped over the spindle, not for the faint hearted or when you're distracted.
This takes some getting used to, but the main downside is if the lp is a tight fit on the spindle - in these circumstances it takes some seconds to tilt and twist it away so as not to release so fast it clips the tube. |
If an accident happens while loading an LP, it will likely be a scratch against the lowest point-- the steel tip of the long cue bar. A good precaution is to slip a bit of soft plastic heat-shrink or rubber hose over the cue bar tip.
BTW, anyone shy about an air bearing tonearm may fear that an interruption of the air supply will cause the stylus to stick destructively in the goove. This is not a problem with Terminator. In this event the vertical point bearing continues to function, causing a light skip without damage. |
Redglobe, I would imagine that Vic could make a 1-2" longer Terminator air manifold for use with the GEM's outboard arm pod or to increase clearance between the arm wand and a periphery ring. |
Listening intently to the Salvation/Terminator. It's not a perfect component by any means, but picking up plenty of auditory clues which heighten the illusion of reality, certainly when compared to my belt drive. Firstly, snare drum - I can really hear the impact of stick on skin followed by sizzle of snare wires. As a drummer myself, I'm really getting an authentic feeling for this most difficult of instruments to replicate. And secondly, really hearing the ambience and reflections in concert halls in live recordings.
Now, I know all this is perfectly possible with excellent belt drive as well, it's just that I'm really happy such an uncoloured revealing sound is in my living room as close to reality, certainly at it's price level, and maybe well beyond, I'm likely to get. |
Spirit
You have gone quite. Where are you in your cartridge quest. I have had an Ortofon Winfield PW on my salvation/terminator rig for about a month. I keep thinking it can't get any better and then it does. All it takes is money. As my journey through this audio hobby progresses I am drawn more and more to enthusiast like Vic who are talented and are making equipment because they love it not to make bundles of money. It is satisfying because I believe I am getting a turntable in this case, that is on the edge of state of the art at a very reasonable price and I have something that is very unique. The down side although minimal in my opinion is that the TT and arm have an industrial look, the setup take some getting used to, putting records on and off take a little extra concentration and the resale market could be limited versus a mainstream manufacturer. Minor drawbacks in by opinion when you hear the music it produces. Grover Huffman seems to fall in this same category and I intend to audition some of his cables soon. |
Sgunther, I totally agree with you re the Salvation/Terminator being on the edge of state of the art. I've not heard more OTT designs like the Wave Kinetics NVS and Lumenwhite Mystere, but I'm confident Vic's babies can hold their head up high in this company. And at it's price point, I'm confident it is without peer.
I'm in the middle of installing/bedding in new spkrs, so hunt for ultimate cart/phono stage may have to wait. No problem, my Zu modded denon 103 is performing VERY well.
I'm soon to retip with Paratrace stylus and upgrade with white sapphire cantilever to both my Zu and old Transfiguration Orpheus, and will be auditioning the Tom Evans Master Groove phono stage as poss. upgrade to my Groove Plus SRX.
But I'm most curious to hear the Soundsmith Straingauge SG-200, and final choice will come down to these options.
I'm fairly confident Peter's Straingauge may be just the ticket since it is fast, transparent and neutral, just the attributes the tt/arm display in spades.
So glad to hear from you seconding my positive appraisal of this kit, in my system a real game changer. |
Spirit, are your new speakers the Zu speakers without crossovers that you mentioned earlier as real game-changers along with your new turntable/arm combination? |
Yes Pete. I've been running Zu Definitions Mk2s since 2007, and have moved up to the new Def4s. I realise statements like 'game changer' could be viewed as a little over the top, but when your world view of audio is changed radically and irreversibly, that's the best label I can use.
My 3 'game changers' are, firstly the Zu spkrs, going to full range, xoverless drivers really set the scene for fully enjoying density of tone and unrestricted dynamics in a speaker system for the first time, now fully realised in the new Def4s; secondly, going to full balanced power with a 4kVA transformer, took me beyond the clarity of my previous audiophile power conditioner, and for first time gave me unconstricted dynamics allowing that 'after midnight' sound all day long; and now, moving away from belt drive/pivoted tonearms to direct rim drive/linear tracking tonearm, IMHO really highlighting all that's positive with analogue, but for first time combining it with the many virtues of digital, to almost be a new medium in itself. |
Well, there's only one negative wrt this tt/arm: it's so good that it's seriously outclassing my digital (EMM Labs CDSA SE).
With my previous belt drive Orbe/SME V, much as i still put lp ahead of cd, there were so many occasions where digital was undoubtedly better than analogue, especially in the areas of neutrality (lack of artificial midbass warmth) and stability of soundstage (esp. lack of wavering of piano notes and end of side distortion).
But now I believe I've retained all that makes analogue so seductively better than digital, and added to the mix many of the positive attributes inherent in digital.
The end result is...I need to upgrade my digital, GRR! Any how I have an idea of a player that may really bridge the quality gap of digital to analogue. |
If what you say about your TT/arm is correct, you won't find digital that can compete, IMO. |
Well after a lot of research on the web, I believe I may have found 3 players that will get me close to analogue-like satisfaction. Out of my price range is the Stahl Tek Vekian and Opus lines. But more affordable are the Neodio NR22 and Eera Tentation. From what I can glean of these players, they may be well ahead of much costlier options in discriminating tonally between recordings, eliminating the homogeneity and 'whiteness' so endemic across the majority of digital.
I'm always so dismayed that I have to turn the volume up when playing cd due to it's lack of presence compared to analogue, but when I do, the thinness of the soundstage then gets magnified. Also I hate that a digital smoothness gets superimposed on all recordings, leading to a false uniformness of sound between different discs.
The Neodio and Eera seem to avoid these pitfalls. |
Hi Spirit,
I see that Vic removed all of his items for sale (tonearm, tonearm wires, etc) on Ebay. Can you give any insight for the shut down? Is he still going to sell his gear and turntable? |
Redglobe, I'll be contacting Vic next week, I'll keep you posted.
I see others are enjoying their NVS dd tt's for 8x price of the Salvation, I'll keep enjoying mine at a real world price to achieve sonic nirvana! |
Spirit, Have you heard your table with a different arm or your arm on a different table? I ask because I wonder if anyone has separated the sound of each or are they only sold as a "system"? |
Pete, the Terminator linear arm had been sold for a number of years prior to the Salvation tt being perfected. There are hundreds of the arm on non Trans Fi tts. I'm not to sure in reverse if many Salvations are set up other than with the Terminator, however. But, it would be possible to do so.
I have often thought what proportion of the near state of the art performance is wrought by the arm only, and how much by the tt. However I'm so happy with the combination I'm not too bothered by the answer. There is no doubt that a great synergy is going on allowing the full bloom of analogue to be maximised while introducing a whole new presentation of neutrality normally reserved for good digital. |
Redglobe, Vic is away on holiday, and will reopen his Ebay shop on his return. |
Spirit, I am confounded as to how you can know that the 2 or 3 very esoteric cdp's that you named can compete with vinyl where all others fail, in your view, including your own very well regarded and very expensive rig. Surely you are not willing to take the unvarnished opinion of some total stranger writing on the internet. |
Lewm, that's a very good point. Especially with all in one cdp's (and carts) it's increasingly getting harder and harder to make an audition, let alone a choice to buy.
I'd have to ensure a no quibble return policy if dissatisfied.
From reading between the lines, at a reasonable price point, the Eera Tentation and Neodio NR22 do seem to be getting plaudits from die hard analogue nuts who do claim they get close to analogue tonal density and discrimination as the tts they are running. Both are championed by true fans of analogue.
But yes, this could all be misleading. |
Hi everyone. As I've moved to non-belt technology for listening to lps, I'm 'getting' what all the afficionados of DD, idler and rim have been trying to promote over the last few years, namely that a radically different presentation for lps is possible, removing certain colourations to open up the full bloom of analogue.
This tt, along with my full range driver, xoverless Zu spkrs, and move to balanced power are finally giving me a sound I can totally relax with and not feel compelled to upgrade further.
In respect of the tt, I'm confident I'll never go back to belt drive again. |
Glad you like your non belt TT and Xoverless speakers. They must be awesome. Congratulations. |
It's interesting Pete to hear analogue presentation which encompasses a lot of the neutrality of digital, serving only to make lp replay even further ahead of the game than cd, than my old tt, which in many respects was well behind the pace of my cdp.
Xoverless spkrs are only adding to the realistic tonality on offer, and balanced power is eliminating restrictions to the dynamics of the presentation.
Other than possible cart/phono stage/cabling upgrades, I think I'm getting there.
Stylus retipping/cantilever upgrading to my Transfiguration Orpheus and Zu Denon 103 carts are next on the agenda, plus demo of Tom Evans Mastergroove phono, and as a contrast, the Soundsmith Straingauge SG200 cart, which dispenses with a phono stage. |
Zu Denon 103 and Transfiguration Orpheus just sent off for stylus retip/cantilever upgrades. Likely to be some time.
Fascinated to see how my game changing tt/arm will either accentuate or close the gap in sound quality btwn one cart which is a world beater with a price to match, and one which is a giant killer, but in some ways a better all around performer than it's pricier partner.
This comparison will tell me a lot more about the possible performance envelope of current setup, and what is ultimately possible from analogue. |
Imagine if the "world" were full of "giants". Armageddon. |
Considering NVS/Telos for my ATLAS as my final destination for analogue front end. Has anyone compared rim drive to exotic DD drive like NVS exotics? For those of you who think that once you've maximize front end you've eliminated all colorations and midrange warmth from your system think again about the remaining variables that you can't hear due to noise. |
Few of us here play at such lofty price points. I do own a highly tweaked Lenco L75 with a Dynavector tonearm and a Technics SP10 Mk3 in a slate and wood plinth of my own design, with a Reed 2A tonearm. The Lenco is divine, could easily live with it, but the Mk3 has the edge overall. If you categorize the Lenco as "rim drive", there is some remote relevance to your question. (Lenco idler drives the underside of the platter, not the rim.) The difference I hear is clearly in part due to the Reed vs the Dynavector, but there is a separate contribution from each of the respective turntables. None of the cartridges I am playing with at the moment is worth more than $1000, but most are "vintage" types. |
Himiguel, You might want to contact Albert Porter. He has extensive experience with the NVS/Telos and owns an Atlas.
Could you elaborate on your point about unheard variables due to noise? Are you talking about the environmental noise, a component noise, some noise floor or noise related to DD turntables? |
Lewm, we have to be careful comparing the Reed 2A 12" red cedar with the Dynavector. I have both on the same TT-101 table and the Reed clearly is more dynamic in the higher frequencies and I get seduced into thinking it has a more open sound. However, the 507 is probably more tonally even, if not as immediately dazzling and superficially dynamic. For the record I prefer the Reed, especially with my Puritas. |
Would love to hear the NVS/Telos, but there are no opportunities outside the US, so a bit of a dead end for me. Still in awe of what my Salvation/Terminator can do at the very bottom end of the price scale (c10% the cost of the NVS/Telos), and other than cart considerations (will be investigating the Straingauge in the Spring), finally have a real feeling of ease listening to vinyl, and not being aware of the usual analogue artifacts (enhanced artificial warmth etc., wavering of suspended notes etc.). I've coined this "lack of cognitive dissonance", and finally I have it in my analogue front end. |
No disrespect Himiguel, but you continually extol the virtues of grounding, saying no component/system can sound anywhere near it's best without addressing this aspect of noise elimination. You may be right, but I feel you should reveal you sell such solutions. I really feel these boards should be for enthusiasts with no affiliations to share their experiences. Dealers, fair enough, but reveal your bias.
I'm naturally skeptical of anyone not doing so, esp. when comments from you always seem to criticise other excellent engineering solutions to the same problems (eg your dismissal that my pro studio 8kVA balanced power transformer can be comparable to your products).
We all value the information, not the hard sell. |
Spirit, did you hear "artificial warmth etc, wavering of suspended notes etc" when you auditioned the SME 30 in your system? I hear none of that with my 30/12 belt drive table. |
Hi Pete, it seems we regularly square up against each other on these boards. Hope you're not a lot bigger than me, lol!
Despite our pinning flags to different masts (drive systems), I'm sure we agree on more than we disagree.
I have to say wavering and artificial warmth was a lot less present on the '30 (and TW Acustic AC3) than my previous Michell Orbe, but I was still aware of a flavour of belt drive. This was in stark relief when hearing it's total absence on the Salvation. But I would have to concur that my current tt might lack the kind of warmth that would be unacceptable for many other listeners. Ironically I became more aware of my aversion to euphonic warmth not in comparing the Orbe to the Salvation, but on my system improving so much that digital took precedence in providing a more neutral presentation than analogue. Only by moving away from belt drive was I able to bridge the gap, and then move past it as the Salvation gave me all the neutrality of digital with rediscovered correct analogue tonality.
But I know I'd have been pretty content had I settled on the '30. |
For whatever it's worth, I have the 10.5-inch version of the same tonearm. I only meant to infer that there are differences between the two tonearms which in part account for my perception of the differences between two turntables. I like the Dynavector tonearm quite a lot, but I think the Reed may well be a bit superior. Impossible to compare them fairly when they are on two different turntables, so your testimony is more relevant.
So you are favoring the TT101 vs my L07D? |
Spirit, I'm just trying to understand what you mean when you use these terms. You paint with a mighty broad brush all belt drive turntables, and admittedly I have not had a rim or idler in my system, so I'm curious about how the difference in sound is described through words. With difficulty, I'm sure.
It is clear that you are very satisfied with your new table and I congratulate you for finally finding your end point. I appreciate the sailing analogy.
I'm planning a tour of some good systems and some have top DD tables. Perhaps then I will better understand what you mean by "a flavour of belt drive."
I guess we do square up every now and then. Perhaps roundup is a better word for it. |
My previous tt was a performer that punched above it's weight, belt drive, suspended type. But I was always aware of a seeming excessive warmth in the sound - rounded transients and slight smear in the timing domain. This was in the Orbe, and my previous Roksan Xerxes 10 and Linn Sondek LP12. And I was always aware of some wavering of notes esp. decay of piano chords. As I became more at home with digital, these attributes became more jarring. Listening to the '30 etc, much was eliminated (non-suspended designs, vibration isolation thru overengineering) but still felt some euphonic warmth wasn't fully dealt with.
TBH, I had no real expectations of the Salvation, indeed skepticism that the drive was critical in this. Hence my major suprise that what I believe to be time domain issues were almost fully eliminated. I really do hear piano as solid as cd. And what could have been a sterile end result is quite the opposite, unobscured tonality now blooms fully when listening to lps with no smearing leading to detail obscuring warmth.
Now, I have to admit that many aspects of the rig are different as well (non-suspended, use of slate/Aluminium over acrylic, and most importantly of all, air bearing linear tracking arm) meaning that a strict comparison is impossible. And I'm sure that fanatical attention to engineering and materials to provide an inert environment for the cart as in the '30 provides an excellent end result beyond my more modest Orbe prev.
All I know is that I really do believe I'm hearing a more 'truthful' representation of what's in the grooves, and this is is in no small part due to the choice of drive technology. |
What I love about the Salvation/Terminator is that it is really synergising beautifully with a cart at the bottom end of the price range for quality MCs - the Zu Audio modded Denon 103. With a stylus and cantilever upgrade by ESCO, it comes out at 25% the price of my previous reference Transfiguration Orpheus, but trumps it for pure tonality and enjoyment.
So I really believe I have a top performing analogue front end right at the bottom end of the price scale for top tts. |
|
So, in analogue Heaven now. Salvation/Terminator mated with the ESCCo modded Zu 103. Finally I've found the analogue front end I'm going to be happy to be keeping.
Aiming only now to investigate Tom Evans Audio Design Groove Plus SRX to Tom's flagship Mastergroove, to really maximise what's coming tru this fantastic rig. |
Either way, your system will be "groovy". |
I live near Atlanta GA if any of you are close and want to hear the Salvation/Terminator set-up. You can view the rest of my system here if that helps. |
Lewm, I struggle to say one is better than the other, but the TT-101 is a very fine deck in the heavy lead japanese plinth I have. The L0-7D is preferred by my friend who has heard them both several times (he likes a warm sound). Both are keepers and I have compared the Dynavector arm on both but don't ask me to articulate any obvious differences ..... that's probably not surprising. If I had to call out a difference the Kenwood might have a quieter background using metal mats on both, but I do find the TT-101 character in general comes across as dynamic and lively. Both are excellent at information retrieval - which is my preferred character of sound - that's why I am selling my 301 and 401 Garrards. |
Thanks, Steve. Most of all, I am glad you like the L07D. I would not be without one; I just did not need two. In the case of the L07D, its stainless steel mat seems to be so well integrated to give a very neutral sound that I would be loathe to substitute something else. But one might try the fancy metal mat from TT Weights that has a black composite surface over a brass base (I think, too lazy to look it up). That one weighs nearly the same as the stainless platter mat on the Kenwood and so would not upset the servo, but it might have a slightly different sonic flavor. |
lewm 10 years ago i would be all over your L07d! now i am into the no plinth TT's
good luck with your sale
Lawrence
Fidelity Forward |
Further thoughts on the Salvation/Terminator. It's providing a really neutral platform to assess carts/phono stages by.
I'm finding that the inherent tonality and bass texture of carts like the ESCCo modded Zu Denon 103 and Lyra Parnassus really shine on this rig, whereas other top end MCs like the Transfiguration Orpheus and Lyra Skala are demonstrating an uninviting matter of factness to their sound despite the extra detail dug out by the combination of tt/arm/cart.
Still contend this tt/arm is the greatest giant killer in audio, providing the biggest bang for buck anywhere. IMHO. |
Spiritofmusic, It seems to me that the Salvation is a solution to the turntable's main target: to be a neutral platform. Raul says a turntable (and arm) need to serve the needs of the cartridge, first and foremost. The fact that your turntable/arm combination allows you to assess the sonic signatures of your cartridges is IMO what it is all about. Ideally, it should not add any of its own signature.
In other words, if you hear the turntable as neutral, it has solved the issues of speed control and accuracy, vibration isolation and noise and is therefore a successful design. The fact that it does all of that at a low price point makes it a real value. Congratulations.
Your phrase "demonstrating an uninviting matter of factness" is one of the best I've read to describe what others have called "ruthlessly revealing" or "ultra detailed". Very nice description. |
Dear Larry, I have nothing for sale. I had two L07Ds, about 2-3 years ago, and sold one to Radicalsteve (aka Steve) more than a year ago. I hadn't heard from him since, so I am happy to learn that he is happy. I would not part with my one remaining L07D; it ain't for sale. In fact, based on current market value, if you can find one, I would posit that the L07D is one of the best bargains in audio. |
