Noromance, I love my valves too (running Nat Audio Utopia pre and 70W 211s SE2SE monos), but I feel I’m missing nothing w the SS Straingauge.
It can lack warmth w the stock DC 24V wall warts, but using my Peter Downs bespoke psu to the cart energiser has endowed the Straingauge w an amazing natural warmth, generous texture, supple bass, neutral mids, clear extended treble, indeed all the things I hear in the best tubed phono stages.
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Sounds great. You are on the right track staying away from huge belt drives! I'm relegated to the basement so no huge inclination to advance much further than where I am. One advantage is concrete floor and walls. Biggest challenge is getting great recordings. I have to get some bass traps. I met Peter in New York playing the SG on a VPI Prime/3D with Harbeths iirc. Nice enough although I'm not sold on the phono amps...I like my valves.
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Hi Noromance, I had a big delay in reinstalling my analog as I first got my dedicated listening space built, and second, accidentally tripped my Straingauge necessitating a 4 month repair delay. Ive always known the stock psus on the Salvation tt speed controller and Straingauge energiser were able to be bettered, and while these psus were being built by Peter Downs at www.alternativeaudio.co.uk, it was also possible to get Trans Fi Audio designer Vic to update the unipivot points and other odds and ends. Also an enthusiast Salvation/Terminator user was proposing a bespoke Al arm mount, so at this point I thought let’s keep going LOL. The biggest masterstroke was coming across the Stacore pneumatic/slate mass loaded passive isolation platform. And another lot of smaller changes. All the while Peter Lederman did his magic upping my Straingauge to top factory spec. — Ive in effect now spent 3x my original outlay, but I have a pretty stellar performer that really punches above its weight and sounds unique to me in lots of ways. — It is true the Salvation and Terminator are both discontinued, a real shame and loss to the analog world. |
@spiritofmusic Nothing to add other than admiration for your tenacity. It must sound wonderful. Are Transfi out of business?
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Have gone all out to create my dream analog front end.
Salvation tt now on Stacore Advanced 95kg passive pneumatic isolation platform.
Rim drive pod now on Symposium Acoustics Svelte isolation pad.
Rim drive speed controller now powered by bespoke R-core transformer psu.
Salvation w mag lev bearing and tt feet.
Terminator air arm pump powered by 3kVA balanced transformer isolated from grid to main system.
Bespoke Al arm mount to Terminator.
New nylon unipivot points to Terminator.
T3Pro armwand upgrade to Terminator.
Upgraded Klei Silver Harmony RCA jacks to Terminator one-piece tonearm wire.
Soundsmith Straingauge cart now upgraded to top spec SDS-7 stylus profile.
Bespoke overspecced R-core transformer psu to Straingauge energiser.
New IC chip to energiser.
SR Black fuses and Sablon Elite pwr cords to Salvation and Straingauge psus.
RollerBlocks on Symposium Acoustics platform under psus and energiser.
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Im now maintaining all the rhythmic drive and speed that my rig was exemplary at, with a new found revelation of texture, air, transparency, imaging, and especially genuine tone and authentic timbre.
Now I can have the best of both worlds, the positives that the best idlers/rim drives are lauded for, with a healthy dose of what the best belt drives bring to the party.
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Have been running top factory spec Soundsmith Straingauge cart, twin bespoke Peter Downs Design psus to Straingauge and Salvation motor, and a whole string of mods, from bespoke Al arm mount to Terminator air linear tracker, nylon unipivot points, Klei Silver Harmony RCA plugs to tonearm wire, Symposium Svelte pad under motor pod, and the crowning glory, a Stacore Advanced pneumatic platform as support.
This analog front end is now a fearsomely impressive performer, with no apparent weaknesses, and some real performance attributes that shame some tt front ends at multiples of the price.
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I am wondering what cartridges/pick-ups you have used with the Terminator Arm and your opinion of each. I have the Terminator and the Salvation with magnetic bearing and feet. I have only used the Ortofon PW cartridge and I think it sounds great but you don't know what you don't know. Thank you. |
O'moon, that was my fear too, but the arm has proved to be v.fuss-free. It takes a bit of finegling to sound of it's best, but from that point is pretty much play and forget.
I believe the arm is the biggest bargain in the high end, analog or otherwise.
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I wonder if any here have heard both the Salvation/Terminator and a recent Jean Nantais modified Lenco. I am currently in the process of acquiring a JN Reference Mk2 and would be very interested in such comparisons. Of course, for a proper comparison the JN TT would need to be fitted with the same Terminator arm and cartridge, and I doubt many have heard such a combination. However, any general impressions from somebody who has heard both TTs would still be illuminating. Although intrigued by the many excellent reviews, what put me off the Salvation was having to faff about with an air-bearing arm. This aside, the Salvation/Terminator appears to be one of audios great bargains.. |
I received message from Dentdog ! There is still a connection between the worlds :)
Yes the balanced maglev feet do the trick ! Improve bass quality for sure but also refine all areas in some extent. A very serious impvt. And yes, remove harshness on certain recordings, this is the biggest thing about the maglev feet really. The maglev feet simply improve macro & micro dynamics.
This obviously leads to another thing: some cartridges seem to benefit more of this revelation of detail more than others. Again, everything must in a perfect balance, leveling the platter & manifold/saddle, cart´s azimuth etc. I´m very close to having found the sweet spot of my TT system.
It´s really hard to believe that punk ever happened in 1976 as I saw GENESIS LIVE music very live & kicking in Helsinki earlier in spring 2014. In a small venue me and my friend went back to 1973 lead by maestro Steve Hackett & his friends on his GENESIS LIVE REVISITED EXTENDED tour and we found ourselves shouting for "Knife !". I closed my eyes and the illusion being in a GENESIS gig was perfect. Nearly 3 hours of old GENESIS music without a break and a single dull moment. The original GENESIS LIVE sound was born again in modern World. The best concert I ever witnessed and will remain forever... unless they will do it again ? In my universe prog reigned in 1976 and still does today in 2016... till the End of Time.
Happy New Year |
John, this isn't going to wk for me since I'm running a Soundsmith Straingauge cart. But I am happy to hear Vic's current setup, I'm sure it's really sweet.
Sgunther, concur w/you, the mag feet are stupendous, in some ways more radical than the mag bearing. Re the stridency I initially heard, I'm not sure what that was all about, but everything is just excellent sounding now. |
Just to clarify Vic system AS SpiritofMusic and myself will always have a different view point
He uses Alpairs 12p in Open Baffles with 18" inch bass drivers uses Bantam Mono a Benedict Phonostage that is a true audiophile bargain and his vinyl replay system sounds fantastic. Mark you need to hear it again. The new phonostage just makes everything musical in sense of flow dynamics and speed. It made me change my view point around the Bantams |
I received and installed the magnetic feet. I have only listened to a couple of LP's. My preliminary impression is that they move the performance of the Salvation/Terminator up another level, enhanced dynamics, imaging and maybe a little deeper sound stage. Definitely not edgy and I have a pretty neutral system with Ortofon Winfield cartridge and Martin Logan Summit speakers. I will provide further impressions as I get some more experience. |
Don't need edgy. Got up and running about 9 months ago after a 30 yr hiatus from audio. While there can always be improvements, have tweaked with tubes and treatments to achieve a rounded, musical presentation. Not overly warm but sweet. Def 4s will get in your face until you tame them but the dynamics can't be sacrificed.
The Salvation-Terminator is a no brainer. True 100% level is a tough order though. I'm really close. I knew going in that a linear tracker was my cup of tea.
Nervosa as the last track comes up can't be a part of my listening experience. |
Edgy and revealing can seem v.similar in character. One can have a v. edgy sounding system w/ or w/out detail present. The mag feet will reveal at lot more detail, but I have an issue w/uber resolution in edgy systems, where the sum total is totally uninviting.
Eg Vic's home system incls a digital T amp, open baffle Bastani spkrs, and impressive as the detail resolution is, the edge of your seat presentation I find totally fatiguing and nerve shredding.
It MIGHT be that in a similar uber energetic/revealing rig the feet may push the balance further into nerve jangling territory. |
Spirit - Thank you for your reply. You are correct it is a no brainer, I have been very pleased with my progression through Vic's arm and TT developments and the cost of the Mag feet is very reasonable especially for this hobby.
If pressed I would describe my system as neutral (you can see the components here on Agon). Which brings me to my questions to you; Why do you think the mag feet make a system more edgy? Did you think the mag bearing did the same? |
On Kenwood L07D and VPI TNT I've tried a DIY 4 lb. brass weight and a 1 lb. 6 oz. Stillpoints LPI on top of Resomat. The LPI has just enough weight to couple the full circumference of the LP to the Resomat points-- increasing foundation without strangling "breathe." |
SGunther, the mag lev feet are a no brainer, the only caveat being they may make a thin strident sounding system too edgy. Normal tonal balance or even an overly-warm sound will really be perfect. I've come to the conclusion after a rocky start, that the feet beat the mag lev platter re impvts wrought, no mean feat (feet? LOL).
Re lp clamp, Vic is adamant NO NO NO! The ResoMat in effect leaves the lp supported on points, and any overly-heavy clamp will bow the lp down at it's centre, causing a concave dishing, and a lifting of the outer edge.
Maybe a v. light clamp that doesn't weigh down the lp, but to increase solidity of contact w/the points on the mat, might work. And poss a periphery ring, but again really not too heavy (i.e. avoid like the plague the ultra heavywt TTWeights stuff).
Vic really believes, contrary to pretty much every other tt designer, that vibrations are dealt w/more effectively by minimal securing of the vinyl structure, akin to letting the lp "breathe" while it's playing. |
I am pretty sure Vic is not an advocate of clamping but I to am curious and would like to hear if anyone has tried it and their opinion. Dentdog, I appears you live in Atlanta, I live up the road in Rome. We both have the Salvation/Terminator but the rest of our systems appear to be very different. Perhaps we should get together and have a listen to each others system. Do you have the magnetic feet? I have not taken the plunge yet, still waiting for a little more feedback. |
Any of you guys use any clamping with the resomat? |
Impressions of the Salvation and the VPI Rim drive
I had the VPI Rim Drive and it was a nice Turntable but no way in the same league as the Salvation in terms of detail and dynamics |
Harold - anything more to report on the impact of the magnetic feet? |
Sgunther, at £120 for the 3 mag feet, it's a no brainer. The only issue I'd be wary of is if your system tends twds over brightness/thinness, this might be exaggerated. In a more neutral or warmer sounding system, the SQ impvts are substantial.
Lewm, thanx. There's too much sensitivity on forum boards and social media generally, we can all be too protective/defensive over comments construed as criticism. Will rein the hyperbole in, but the mag feet have definitely improved what is already a giant killing package.
Dover, don't worry too much about lack of continuity using the mag feet. Any movement via the feet is microscopic, this is just a way to minimise the travel of vibrations up into the tt. I'm actually considering running the motor pod on Symposium Acoustics Rollerblocks HDSEs, which will addd ANOTHER possible layer of discontinuity. Btw, the Salvation is a direct rim drive, not belt drive, and as such may be better able to cope w/this kind of isolation/discontinuity. |
The issue with Magnetically levitated feet on a TT in my view is that if the motor is separate from the TT then it compromises the rigidity between motor pulley and platter/bearing. I have no doubt that IF one has a TT that is being subjected to vibration and feedback then it may appear to be an improvement in noise floor, however this is at the cost of speed stability. Any vibration from the floor will affect the motor and platter/bearing differently resulting in instability.
An example is my back up TT - Platine Verdier. When I removed the suspension ( which is quite lossy in standard form ), the level of belt creep and oscillation was dramatically reduced - visually around 95% plus and speed stability improved.
In an ideal world the motor and platter/bearing should be rigidly coupled. You might be better to put the TT with motor drive on a platform, and then put the whole platform on the maglev feet if you have feedback issues.
On the subject of the magnetically levitated platter, I use the ball insert on the Verdier ( I can measure the platter lifting down to less than a micron through the use of a dial gauge calliper when the bearing spindle is adjusted such that most of the platter weight is still carried by levitation ). Grounding the bearing tightens up the bass and provides better timing and coherency, and cleaner transients with less smear.
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Spirit, Thanks for being a good sport in responding to my last post. |
I am considering the mag level feet and would like to hear some more opinions on their effectiveness. FWIW I listened to a $100K+ system yesterday with a top of the line Brinkman Table and arm after which I came home fired up my system and was quite pleased with how it compared. |
It'll be worth the wait - if you ever return from that parallel dimension: you know, the one where punk never happened and prog lp's are still spanned by millions, 24/7 on tt's across the world, a la 1973!
Installing the mag feet has been a MASSIVE step fwd - I really do feel I'd have to spend 5x the budget of my Salvation/Terminator/Straingauge to outperform it.
The mag feet, maybe even more than the magnetic bearing, is bringing a massive sense of calm to proceedings, really allowing micro dynamic shadings to emerge, and allow the true bass character of the rig to shine. |
Spirit, I encountered fierce magnetic forces in the horizontal plane but with a little help from Ethel, my assistant we tamed them. However, we had a minor drawback. The mission failed. The last feet was relatively easy to adjust but the magnets proved to be too weak. Vic send me a pair of stronger magnets and they will arrive in a couple of days. I will tell more...
Strange things happening, I´m having serious difficulties in sending my URLs, seems they don´t quite work elsewhere anymore and can´t go thru. A message from a fellow Agoner:
"For some reason I couldn't get either of your URLs to work. It might have something to do with the space-time continuum, or perhaps a glitch in my internet connection or that pesky virus"... or are we living in paraller universes and the bridge between our worlds is about to break... maybe we all live in paraller multiversum ? This may very well be my last message... |
Harold, please be REALLY careful installing the mag lev feet, pref. have someone helping you. The rare earth magnets are v. powerful, and there is a real tendency for a bit of a fight until you fully engage the magnets and footers in place, esp. w/3 feet to be installed. That second person would be there to help stabilise the tt as you attempt each foot.
Once installed you'll be in for a bit of a change. For me, things were pretty rough sounding, v. harsh indeed, until I realised I'd knocked a lot of levels out in the install, and in effect set up had to happen from scratch. This means esp re levelling the whole tt via the new feet, and re levelling the Terminator gantry, and prob looking at vtf/azimuth again.
Once I got that little lot sorted, the sound transformed from rough'n'ready to even more sophisticated than before. Bass is the big impvt, a real cleaning of hash and revelation of "true" bass, tot non-euphonic, supremely agile, w/kick drum really delineated but no fat.
This leads to a de cluttering of the mid range and a freeing up of treble, the soundstage expanded in all directions. NOT subtle. |
Spirit & all,
The biggest impvt changes have been in order of precedence 1st air bearing TA, 2nd direct rim drive TT in my analog rig. The maglev bearing is the dot of it, actually another very serious impvt. It simply works fabulously.
The sound is so convincing in everything that it keeps me rushing home from work to spin-up my records. It has no major issues. I´m just enjoying sound quality.
Some records sound a bit harsh though. Actually I´m hoping that the maglev feet would tame this harshness if it´s due to incompleteness of the deck´s ability to the control the resonances that are reaching cartridge, of course. Otherwise this harshness is a recording/pressing issue.
What I´m expecting from this new tweak in order of precedence is 1st impvt in bass quality & quantity and 2nd some notes more in mids and highs. Beeing realistic I´m not expecting too much (hopefully).
I´ve the magnets and delrin feet in my hands and the deck is awaiting in my workshop. This weekend will really be something else...
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Lewm, I 100% concur. I've been just as skeptical of audiophiles who've spent $300k+ on their systems, w/500kg spkrs etc, being TRANSFORMED etc by a single cable/puck etc. Tbh, it can rightly invite ridicule.
These impvts I've noted are incremental, even if my language seems more emphatic than that - indeed I'm sure that's what these mega systems are demonstrating too.
To put the record straight, the changes the mag bearing and mag lev feet provide if they could magically be transferred to my old belt drive Michell Orbe would pale in comparison to the initial ground breaking move from previous belt drive tt/pivoted arm to my current direct rim drive/air bearing design. Ie the big impvt change has been the tt/arm, all else are mere adornments.
What IS amazing is that providing extra layers of isolation (first, air bearing to arm, then rel frictionless magnetic bearing, and now the feet to greatly reduce vibrations even reaching the tt/arm/cart) is refining and expanding all of what makes this design a veritable triumph.
These changes may be in effect incremental, but they are no less impressive for that.
But I hear your point and concur in many ways. |
The problem for me is that in extolling the virtue of every new tweak, it can sound as if the prior iteration was not so great, as in "massive elimination of bass smear/euphonic colouration". This makes me wonder what the tt might have sounded like prior to the new footers. Yet, we were told it was just about flawless last year, even. It would be better to keep things in proportion. This is, after all, a turntable, not a thing that is amenable to perfecting, and it plays LPs, which are definitely not perfect things either. I don't mean to be a Debbie Downer; I applaud your unending enthusiasm, in fact. |
Peter, as you know I'm a big fan of the Salvation. Vic's mag lev feet take the performance to a whole new level. He has provided rare earth ring magnets of a v. powerful kind that screw into the collets fixed to the underside of the slate plinth. These then w/the weight of the tt drop into recessed magnets fixed into the collets/footers that sit on the tt shelf, magnetic repulsion allowing a small amount of "bounce" (note, NO oscillation, just a soft cushioning effect).
After 3 days, the sound is just clicking into place. Massive elimination of bass smear/euphonic colouration has led to a sound which starts and stops on a dime, kick drum shows phenomenal delineation, dynamics truly thunderous. |
Peterayer, look on the Trans-fi site, under Salvation turntable upgrades. |
Can you guys share some photos of these maglev feet? I'm curious about their size and what keeps the plinth stable and not wanting to float sideways. Sounds like a great solution. |
Me ? I´m just a lawnlower.
I´m glad to hear your testimony on the latest implementation in the mighty Salvation TT, the extraordinary maglev feet. My delrin maglev feet have arrived to harbour, hardly can wait for the courier to come knocking at my door. May God bless him. This all is really getting exciting, I wonder how I manage to get sleep at night... |
Harold, btw is your name a pun on the old Genesis song from Nursery Cryme?
I believe what you're due to receive is what I've just fitted. I'm getting "interesting" results. Soundstage, treble info esp, and dynamics all boosted, but a definite change in bass tonality. Any time I get a change in bass thru an upgrade, I spend long hrs pondering whether things are improved (tube warmth or bloat, eg). When it comes to these mag feet, the seeming stripping of bass warmth was initially disconcerting, but I'm coming to the conclusion that the bass is tighter, more start-stop, less euphonic - v.similar to the changes wrought as I placed my Zu Audio Definitions 4 spkrs on Symposium Acoustics Rollerblocks.
But this change may be v. system dependent, and any tendency to thinness may be exaggerated. |
No wonder, Vic is a magician.
After my own maglev for the platter I have no doubts about the benefits of maglev feet as well. I told him that I want to levitate my plinth too and I suggested that he could make me brass feet with ring magnets. Vic wanted to try prototype delrin feet first with a different shaped plinth... so he made 3 delrin feet with opposing magnets so that I can use maglev with my plinth.
I will receive them next week and report my experience... |
Vic strikes again! I've just fitted out the 3 existing Salvation feet w/3 magnetic ones (opposing rare earth magnets in the plinth collets), so now we have an air bearing arm, and magnetic suspension for the platter and plinth via the feet.
Unlike the other mods, this one didn't work immediately for me - until I realised everything was a little out of level as a result of taking out the old feet and fitting the new mag feet. Once I'd reconfigured levels, things started snapping into focus - mainly a big reduction in time domain smear equating to a clearing of hash in the lower frequencies and a consequent decluttering of the soundstage further up the frequency spectrum.
The giant killer Salvation/Terminator just grew a little more gigantic! |
Dentdog, welcome to the party! Not many people here, but Vic prefers it this way, each tt is in effect a bespoke order, and he couldn't keep up w/demand if it spiralled.
I'm using his tt/arm with a Soundsmith Straingauge cart, and the combination is still giving me that warm analog sound with a great deal of digital-like neutrality and solidity. I haven't found this combination of attributes elsewhere. |
Hi Spirit and yes. It seems that with maglev a bit more oil is needed in the reservoir. That and got everything level, no problems. One can really get an education on this site.
Working on the remaining acoustical room issues. As much trouble as it is to get everything out of the system, with the info from you guys my biggest remaining issue is how to get my vinyl clean.
I'm sure Vic realized my inexperience and was very! patient. A good differential diagnosis and continued observation narrowed down the possible solutions. All of a sudden, everything fell into place.
Very dynamic. Tight hard hitting drums and bass, more so than CD without a doubt. Voices clearer, string plucks sharper. |
Lewm, intested in you comment on the L07D vs SP10MKIII, but not to take this thred more OT, I will bring the discussion to your system thread instead. Thanks! |
Thekong,
Truthfully, it has now been so long since I heard the Lenco and either the L07D or the Mk3 in the same system, that I have no basis to compare, but I do have to say that I don't sense any smearing with my Lenco. For the past several months, the Lenco has been in my basement system, serving as a source for my Beveridge 2SW spkrs. The other two are upstairs where that system has been inoperative for many months while I try to solve an issue with one of the amplifiers. (We DIY guys are stubborn about asking for help.) I am so pleased with the Bevs that I frankly do not miss the other system very much, though it is at least just as good. Prior to the split into two systems, I might have said that Lenco is best bang for the buck, could live with it alone, but that both the L07D and the Mk3 are "better" yet different from each other. L07D is closest to the Lenco in character. Mk3 is very "disciplined", like Sgt Joe Friday in Dragnet: Just the facts, ma'am.
So many other things affect one's perception of a tt (cartridge, tonearm, wiring, phono stage, etc), when it comes to an adjective like "smearing", that I would not know where to start.
I know David from LH but also because he has helped me out personally a couple of times as I got the Lenco to where I wanted it. He's a great guy. Best regards to him. |
Dentdog, has Vic been able to help you w/your SQ issues? |
Hi Harold, right that I have not experienced with the maglev Salvation, and I also agreed it would be very interesting to do so! As mentioned before, the only thing stopping me is, rightly or wrongly, I am biased towards a more rigid mechanical grounding at the bearing.
If Vic is to offer something like the Callas kit mentioned by Dover, even as an extra cost option, which let me experiment on the effect of with and without ball bearing, I would not hesitate! |
Vic took most time getting the motor right, both in terms of high torque speed stability, using a smaller drive wheel to interface w/the platter, and careful execution of draining motor vibrations away from the platter, and hence away from the all-important stylus.
I've mated my Salvation/Terminator w/the Soundsmith Straingauge, and I for one detect no smearing or obscuring of detail on classical or jazz v competing belt drives I've heard in the past. But I bow to Thekong who has greater experience a-b'ing it against others. |
Lewm, my feeling is the modified Lenco and the Salvation are similar, and both lags slightly behind the other TTs in those areas mentioned. I want to stress that this is not day and night difference, but then, we are always talking about small differences at this level. I am very interested to know your impression on your Lenco vs L07D / SP10 MK III ! My friend is a moderator in Lenco Heaven, David, aka diawok. Just by the photos, the main difference between his and your Lenco is that his has a separate slate armboard. This is an old photo of the TT setup during the Lenco / Rockport comparison a few years ago http://i44.photobucket.com/albums/f20/daiwok/Hi%20Fi/IMG_1817.jpgPeterayer, from you system thread, I see that you are using a full Pass Labs amplification system. I have some very interesting experience with the Pass Labs Xono and XVR-1, which I will post on your system thread. |
Thekong, thank you very much for your detailed response. I find that too often threads present primarily one very positive description or perspective of a product, mostly by those who own it and really enjoy it. Comments like yours, which are based on direct comparisons in your own system, add a sense of balance to the overall impressions one may get from these threads. Your observations are much appreciated. |
Thank you, Thekong, for one of the most informative posts on this thread. I had no idea that you had such a depth of experience with the tt's we've been discussing. I have a question. You wrote above, "However, in areas such as background blackness, instrument layering within the sound stage, micro dynamics, and finesse, it lags slightly behind the TTs mentioned above." Did you mean ALL the tt's you had previously mentioned, including the Lenco, or did you mean to exclude the Lenco from that generalization? Oddly enough, I have a slate/PTP/Lenco with the Jeremy Superbearing and accessory bearing clamp. So I know whereof you speak when it comes to the sound of that tt. Makes me wonder who is your friend with a tt exactly like mine, albeit I don't own a Terminator tonearm. I use a Dynavector DV505 on my Lenco. However, your having heard the Terminator on the Lenco allows you to dissect the "sound" of the Salvation from that of the Terminator on the Salvation. |
Thekong, I think you haven´t experienced the maglev Salvation ? It would be interesting to hear the maglev instead, wouldn´t it ? |
