Thanks for the thread and congratulations. I'm curious how the "vibrations from the drive are drained away from the platter and hence the stylus". With the rim drive contact, surely some vibrations hit the platter.
I read that someone is developing a turntable that uses rim drive to move the platter up to initial speed and then it disengages leaving a thread drive to only maintain proper platter speed. I presume he felt the rim drive imparted some unwanted vibration through the direct contact. |
Glad you like your non belt TT and Xoverless speakers. They must be awesome. Congratulations. |
Spirit, Congratulations on your reaching audio nirvana. You certainly seem pleased with your choice. But are you stating categorically that you feel your current table and arm are better than all the belt drive table/pivoted arm combinations that you have heard, or that exist? That would be quite something. I ask because your enthusiasm is very clear and the list of tables you mention as potentially providing the last 5% as you say are all direct drive systems. I have not read of any of them being tried with a linear tracking arm though. |
Thanks for the clarification, Spirit. It does indeed sound as though you have gone through a thorough and lengthy process and can speak from your experience. That always helps one to feel confident in his choices.
If you ever get the chance to hear some of those expensive DD tables, and I'd include a fully modded SP10 mk3 in that group, it would be interesting to read your impressions.
I also embarked on a major turntable/arm/cartridge upgrade recently. The research process took a couple of years. I too became fascinated by all of the DD discussions on these forums and was able to hear the Dobbins The Beat as well as two SP10 mk 2s and the Brinkman Bardo. I couldn't hear an NVS and Monoco. In the end I preferred a massive, well isolated belt drive table and 12" pivoted arm. In the end, for me, it is as much about the handling of energy from the cartridge through the arm to the base as it is about the drive system. A well implement belt drive does resolve the speed stability, rhythmic drive issue, IMO.
Musical satisfaction, as the destination, is what drives us all. The path we take often differs. The sharing of the journey is what these forums are all about. Congratulations again. |
Spirit, being from England, I wonder if you have ever heard an SME 30/12 with V-12 arm in a well set up system? Or any of the other top belt drives like the Continuum, the Walker, TW Acustics Black Night, Brinkman Balance, DiVinci. Do you feel that your idler is clearly superior to all of the top belt drives when it comes to speed accuracy, drive, propulsion, "time-smear" etc? |
Sksos1, The Timeline has humbled owners of DD, belt and rim drive tables. It can be quite cruel. I did try in on my old table and it clearly showed that it was fast. With no speed adjustability, it was quite an eye-opener. I'm waiting for someone to start a thread which lists results for the Timeline on various tables. |
No, I haven't heard the Continuum or Da Vinci or the Monaco, but that is exactly my point. I can't know that some other drive system is clearly better or worse in all cases as you suggest of your Direct Rim Drive over all belt and even DD types.
I have heard some horns and tubes and though I think they strayed a bit from reality for my taste, I don't feel I have nearly the experience to pass judgement on the entire class of product.
I think it has a lot to do with individual implementation and overall system context, not to mention the subjective notion of personal preference.
I don't get over to London, but thanks for the invitation. |
"One thing that VPI, Sota, SME etc. won't be able to provide is a paradigm busting approach to getting the best out of analogue, technology that emphasises all it's postitive attributes with few of the negatives associated with more traditional technologies that these established companies are limited to offering."
Spirit, what do you mean by this? Could you elaborate? |
Spirit, looking at the Reso Mat, it appears that the LP rests on a few points elevated above the platter. Without anyway to clamp the LP down and prevent it from moving, do you notice any slippage of the LP as the needle creates drag during large groove modulations?
I understand from your many descriptions of the high torque motor that it propels the LP forward at constant and accurate speed. That is a big advantage. I'm wondering though if the friction from the stylus might be enough to slow down the LP during big piano notes etc while the massive direct rim drive keeps the platter moving forward. How does the Reso Mat/Trans Fi Salvation deal with this potential problem? |
Spirit, during the loading of an LP, what kind of protection does the stylus have? It sounds from your description as though the cartridge is exposed to the LP being slid in horizontally. Is this correct? And if so, are you ever nervous about accidentally hitting the stylus and snapping the cantilever off? |
Spirit, are your new speakers the Zu speakers without crossovers that you mentioned earlier as real game-changers along with your new turntable/arm combination? |
If what you say about your TT/arm is correct, you won't find digital that can compete, IMO. |
Spirit, Have you heard your table with a different arm or your arm on a different table? I ask because I wonder if anyone has separated the sound of each or are they only sold as a "system"? |
Himiguel, You might want to contact Albert Porter. He has extensive experience with the NVS/Telos and owns an Atlas.
Could you elaborate on your point about unheard variables due to noise? Are you talking about the environmental noise, a component noise, some noise floor or noise related to DD turntables? |
Spirit, did you hear "artificial warmth etc, wavering of suspended notes etc" when you auditioned the SME 30 in your system? I hear none of that with my 30/12 belt drive table. |
Spirit, I'm just trying to understand what you mean when you use these terms. You paint with a mighty broad brush all belt drive turntables, and admittedly I have not had a rim or idler in my system, so I'm curious about how the difference in sound is described through words. With difficulty, I'm sure.
It is clear that you are very satisfied with your new table and I congratulate you for finally finding your end point. I appreciate the sailing analogy.
I'm planning a tour of some good systems and some have top DD tables. Perhaps then I will better understand what you mean by "a flavour of belt drive."
I guess we do square up every now and then. Perhaps roundup is a better word for it. |
Spiritofmusic, It seems to me that the Salvation is a solution to the turntable's main target: to be a neutral platform. Raul says a turntable (and arm) need to serve the needs of the cartridge, first and foremost. The fact that your turntable/arm combination allows you to assess the sonic signatures of your cartridges is IMO what it is all about. Ideally, it should not add any of its own signature.
In other words, if you hear the turntable as neutral, it has solved the issues of speed control and accuracy, vibration isolation and noise and is therefore a successful design. The fact that it does all of that at a low price point makes it a real value. Congratulations.
Your phrase "demonstrating an uninviting matter of factness" is one of the best I've read to describe what others have called "ruthlessly revealing" or "ultra detailed". Very nice description. |
Spirit, have you ever heard a turntable/arm/cartridge combination that surpasses the performance of what you own, at 15X or at any amount? |
You write a few posts up (1/30) that it was the SME 20, not the SME 30-12 with V-12, that you were prepared to buy. Quite a difference there. There is a substantial increase in both sonics and price between the two models. Glad you are happy with your decision and have no regrets. |
Spirit wrote on 3/6/14: And I still contend one would have to spend 15x the entry ticket, at least, to surpass it's performance.
I wrote this in response on 3/6/14: Spirit, have you ever heard a turntable/arm/cartridge combination that surpasses the performance of what you own, at 15X or at any amount?
It was my intention to learn the context of Spirit's statement. If it costs 15X, or $75,000+, to get better performance than his upgraded Salvation, then it would follow that his Salvation is indeed a great, even incredible bargain. I've never heard the Salvation so I'm just curious what he thinks sounds better so I have a reference for his contention.
There is no question that the value issue changes as one considers more expensive gear. I would just like to know if and what $75K turntable Spirit has had in his system for such a comparison and to be able to make such a declarative statement.
Simple as that with no offense intended. Just a question with no hidden agenda. Still friends. |
Spirit, thanks for your comments and I appreciate your candor. I've found it very difficult to ascribe sonic characteristics to components in the context of different systems.
In the US, the SME 20/12 is about $28K and the Kodo/Schroeder perhaps $35K, much less than the prices you quote. I'd be very curious to compare the much less costly, especially in England, SME 20/3 for about $15K and the Kodo/Schroeder table/arms directly to the Salvation in the same system. Perhaps also one of the Brinkmanns or Basis table/arm combinations for less than $15K.
I've heard perhaps 35 turntable/arm systems at various shows, dealerships and friends' systems costing between $5-50K and in my experience, I can not make any declarative statements about any of their performances separate from other components in those unfamiliar systems, let alone comparisons to other specific turntables. It is a very difficult exercise.
I'm only certain about the three turntables that I've had in my own system and their relative performance to each other.
I hope to perhaps hear the Salvation one day, but I've never even seen one. Your enthusiastic reports do help to inform others about its potential in other contexts. |
Perhaps this is a naive question, but do the magnets that levitate the platter effect the cartridge in any way? Maybe the platter is shielded, but I've seen a cartridge with strong magnets smash into the spindle of an SP 10 due to the magnetic attraction. The result was a bent cantilever. I would think that if any magnetic attraction got through the platter, it would effect how the signal is generated in the cartridge. |
Has anyone compared these three rim drives: Salvation, TTWeights, VPI? |
Thekong, Could you please elaborate on your comment? In what ways do you think the Salvation rim drive is compromised? |
Thekong, thank you very much for your detailed response. I find that too often threads present primarily one very positive description or perspective of a product, mostly by those who own it and really enjoy it. Comments like yours, which are based on direct comparisons in your own system, add a sense of balance to the overall impressions one may get from these threads. Your observations are much appreciated. |
Can you guys share some photos of these maglev feet? I'm curious about their size and what keeps the plinth stable and not wanting to float sideways. Sounds like a great solution. |
