Too many choices for R2R DACS--opinions appreciated

I just bought a Lab 12 DAC 1 reference.    Its based on 8 Philips 1543 and has a pair of 6922 in the output stage.  Sounds great and built like a tank,  I am really enjoying this DAC.    Check out Lab 12, their whole line up is very nice .   

Also a Lab12 DAC 1 Ref DAC and extremely happy.  Very underrated DAC and priced very well. 

Just bought a LAB 12  DAC 1 reference  and it is very good .   Extremely smooth and easy to listen to .    

Mojo Mystique 3. Excellent DAC in my opinion. I had one and traded to move up their line. 

Just saw on Headfi forum that Gustard is about to come out with a new R to R DAC called the R26.  

A thoughtful report, and congrats on having found a DAC that makes you happy!

Update (yet again): the Morpheus has been doing its thing in my system for about 12 days now, and an interesting thing has happened. Either it has opened up some after quite a few hours of run-time, or my ears and sensibilities have accustomed themselves to the way it presents the sound, or possibly a combination of both. Since it wasn't new when I bought it, I assumed it had been entirely burned in, but maybe not entirely. In any case, I'm really starting to love what I'm hearing now. The slight flatness I was hearing before has resolved itself into smoothness, and I don't find myself pining for the slightly rounder-but-less-precise sound of the AMR DAC that the Morpheus replaced. Had to do a bit of experimentation with inputs, as previously I had been running both the TV sound and my Cambridge Audio disc spinner through a Wyred4Sound Remedy Reclocker which converts everything to 24/96 resolution. It's a big help with TV sound which can only be connected through optical cable, but I found that the disc spinner sounded far more natural and appealing connected directly to the DAC via coax (I'd love to try AES/EBU, but the CA spinner doesn't offer that connection) and playing CDs at their native 16/44.1 resolution. 

So I think the Sonnet Morpheus is going to keep its place in my system for a good long while. Falling in love with it was a slow process, but I'm there now. If I get itchy for further upgrade, I have a pretty good sense of which direction to go, but that won't be soon. 

Thanks again to all for the helpful comments and information.

The spinner is a huge weak link in revealing what any quality dac can reveal, compared to much newer designs. I, too thought I needed to upgrade to an R2R from my Audio Alchemy DDP-1 + PS 5 dac/pre when using either a Marantz HD-CD 1 or Oppo 105 with ~$500 in aftermarket power supply area upgrades.

The Marantz mechanism died and I replaced it with a Audiolab 6000CDT (MSRP $600). Comparing it to my 105, playing the same disc, but the hybrid layer vs the SACD layer, the 6000 was a very clear winner, so I sold the 105. If you have $3K to spend consider the new Project spinner

hth

@cooper52 That is an excellent summary of the Sonnet and consistent with my experience of it. I know folks who actually prefer the old Metrum DACs, exactly for that reason -- less resolution, yes, but more fullness to the sound.

I would probably go with the Sonnet Hermes as I'm sure the pricing is very similar between the Hermes and Ambre.  Cees mentioned they both basically sound the same however the Hermes has a slightly larger power supply and uses the Pi4 chip instead of the Pi 3 chip used in the Ambre.  

If you want to use I2s you need to purchase the I2s module which replaces your already installed USB module.  It's very easy to do.  You can't have both I2s and USB connectivity at the same time.

Thanks for the suggestions about inputs. I've been mulling over the prospect of adding a streamer to the system, and I wonder if anybody has compared the Metrum Ambre with the Sonnet Hermes? I'm still limited by my choice of USB over I2S configuration on the Morpheus. I may have made a wrong decision here...

I have the metrum acoustics onyx which I had upgraded with the DAC 3 chips.  Cees who is the designer of both the Onyx and Morpheus mentioned that with the DAC 3 chips the Onyx is essentially equivalent to the Morpheus as they both now have 16 DAC chips and their design is very similar.

I also have the Metrum acoustics ambre streamer which I highly recommend as it is very well built with upgraded clocks, linear power supply, etc. and has all the digital outputs.  In my system USB was the worst sounding and the images and vocals were thinned out.  I2S was the best connection between the two and images and vocals definitely became fuller and the sound more transparent and dynamic.  It's possible the Morpheus has a better USB input than the Onyx but I would think the other digital inputs on the Morpheus, especially I2S will be better.

op

if you haven't already, be sure to try the morpheus through its different inputs... in my time with the unit i found they performed rather differently

The Morpheus arrived on Friday, and it’s been going through its paces all weekend. I’m informed by the seller that it’s had plenty of time in his system to reach its full voice, so I assume that’s what I’m hearing.

Initial impressions: everything they say about the imaging and detail retrieval is true. Spatial cues are vastly improved over my previous DAC, and while the higher frequencies are brought a bit more forward, the Morpheus maintains solid control of them, so they never sound shrill or glassy (unless the source material sounds that way). Voices, in particular, sound natural. Bass frequencies are also very present and well defined. These qualities are very impressive.

However (and yes, there’s a BUT here), there’s a tradeoff for all of this compared to my AMR DP-777, and that is the fullness and roundness of the musical events. While the Morpheus is certainly not what I’d call analytical, there’s a relative thinness to the notes, as if the music has been slightly deflated and spread. That’s where the AMR DAC exceeds the Morpheus: in presenting the image as a unified event. It’s not as precise in its presentation as the Morpheus, but to my ear, it’s more appealing.

So all things considered, I’m impressed but not exactly in love. I guess unless I’m willing to spend some really big bucks, there’ll always be some sort of tradeoff. I’ll live with the Morpheus for a good while and see if my tastes/ears adjust to this new soundscape.

Update: I've pulled the trigger (finally) on a Sonnet Morpheus which I found on another site for a very attractive price. It should be arriving in a couple of days (the seller is pretty close to here), and I'll share my impressions of it once its up and running. I had a choice from different sellers for either USB or I2S over ethernet cable and I've opted for the version with USB which will be more immediately useful, as I don't have any I2S sources (yet...). Someday I might add a network streamer to the mix, but that's a future project.

The Holo May, wonderful though it seems to be, is simply out of price-range for me. I suppose if I wait some time (possibly a couple years) it'll come down, but for now, I need to concentrate on the $3K range, where the Spring 3 and the Morpheus live. It's kind of difficult to sort through all the reviews, and some of the videos on Youtube can be a bit of a slog to get through, though the information is extremely useful, once you get there. I found this one (it's LOOOONG) very helpful, but you sort of have to tease out the relevant parts:

It was a big help in my decision to drop the Denafrips Venus II from my list, and in reinforcing my preference for the Sonnet Morpheus. I'm kind of leaning in that direction right now, but haven't totally committed. Stay tuned--I'm nearly there...

grist for the mill -- some points to add given my extensive travels in dac-land in the past couple years

-- audio gd may or may not deserve a bad rap... asr b-s aside -- i picked up a master 7 dac for fun for a grand used, it sounds excellent, built like a tank (easily the equal of the pontus 2 in both respects)

-- at the 1 grand mark i think mhdt’s dacs, with some tube upgrades, are the ones to beat for musicality and coherency of presentation, with the soekris units close behind (i have not heard the musician pegasus, which i believe is a cost engineered facsimile of a lower denafrips dac), superior to border patrol, schiit, rme, musical paradise, topping etc etc to my ear, in my system

-- while i haven’t yet had one in my own system, i understand from trusted sources that the holo may is a major step up from the spring, i would take the sonnet morpheus over the spring at the 2-3k price point if for no other reason than the features set and small form factor, it is best at the usb input though... the may, otoh, fits in well with the 5 grand competitive tier

Let me narrow your choice! Get the Musician Pegasus R2R. The bonus is there iscacUS dealer on Audiogon. No affiliation! Good luck!😄

There is Spring 3 available on headfi right now. On a similar note, some items sells quite fast typically, leading people to think that they don't come up for sale too often....

Once again, thanks to all for the opinions and very helpful information. At this point (though it’s not set in stone--yet) I’m flipping back and forth between the Holo Audio Spring 3 KTE and the Sonnet Morpheus II. Reviews seem to favor the Holo DAC (narrowly), but there are downsides, principally the point of origin for shipping (Singapore, I think) and a rather long wait for the DAC to be assembled. There is a domestic source for the Morpheus which is a distinct upside, but it’s located here in California, so there’ll be a pretty steep sales tax tacked on. In the end, it’s probably a wash, price-wise. I did notice a Morpheus for sale at a pretty good price on USAM BTW, but you never seem to see Holo Spring 3 on the used sites. That could be a clue in itself. I’d welcome opinions. BTW, I’ve watched any number of Youtube vids about these DACS, which are pretty helpful but can’t really give a realistic idea of how one or the other would perform in my system (see original post).

I currently have an original Schiit Bifrost and a Denafrips Pontus ll.  It’s a PITA, but comparing them was interesting.  The Bifrost is great, but the Pontus ll is a totally different animal! Much better bass and better mids and highs. Definitely less analytical.  If I get the funds, I’d like to try other RTR DAC’s.

All the best.

JD

I came across this on the Lampizator site.

http://www.lampizator.eu/lampizator/TDA1541%20corner/TDA1541.html

The TDA1541 is the DAC chip of the MHDT Orchid.

It's not my first experience in dealing with a Chinese made DAC. I bought a Yulong Sabre DA3 a number of years ago that was shipped directly from China. Also no need to contact Holo Audio, their not so good return policy is already spelled out on their website. Warranty returns and just regular returns are handled differently but they don't accept any returns on a Holo Audio May from what I see. This is always a risk we all have to decide on when we buy from a Chinese company or even a boutique company who is a one man show. As much as I want to buy from Holo Audio there are risks with them being a one man show and a Chinese company. There are risks in everything! 

@willywonka 

That is very disturbing and has somewhat soured me in buying a Chinese DAC. I was going to buy a Holo Audio May today but may need to rethink my options. Even though your problems were with Audio GD, they have no control over Chinese Customs.

Be careful, as you are conflating in a manner that may restrict your choices unnecessarily. I am not aware of any similar stories relating to Denafrips or Holo Audio, to pick two obvious examples, and doubt very much that anything similar would happen if a return were necessary.

It is damning that Audio GD behaved as reported, and I wouldn't go near their products because of that alone. But while I have moved on from a Denafrips DAC, my dealings with Alvin, their worldwide representative, based in Singapore, were comparable to the positive experiences that I have had with American and European companies.

If you are interested in a Holo DAC, why not contact them and ask specifically how returns would be handled. My bet is that you wouldn't be on the hook for any Customs charges, even if it were necessary to ship the unit back to China.

Another happy BorderPatrol R2R DAC owner and I know Gary Dews personally.  He's terrific and always looking to make improvements to his equipment.  In fact, I have two of his DAC's.  You really can't go wrong, and I seldom see these for sale, so if you find something you like better, you can always sell it.  Highly-recommended !  

@lucmichaud1 That is very disturbing and has somewhat soured me in buying a Chinese DAC. I was going to buy a Holo Audio May today but may need to rethink my options. Even though your problems were with Audio GD, they have no control over Chinese Customs.

Audial S5 is a great multibit non oversampling dac using the tda1541a chip.  Great non bright treble.  Perfect synergy with my bliesma beryllium tweeters

After 49 emails exchanged with Audio GD about a R1 dac, they asked me to send it back at my expense for a refund.

Idid, mentioning what I had paid for it. The Chinese customs wnated to apply import duties based on that amount.  

Audio GD sais they told me to lie and put a low 100 $ value. They did not tell me that and refused to pay or clear the matter with Chinese customs, who eventually forcibly destroyed the unit. Netither DHL or Paypal assumed any responsability.

Audio GD has some nice products, but no business ethics.

The DENAFRIPS Pontus I now use is detailed and not fatiguing. Much more open than the Audio GD. R2R generally don't have this ringing that I hear on oversampling DACs.

Holo Audio Spring 3 - measures awesome, sounds even awesome

O.P. weighing in again here: you guys realize you’re only making my life harder, right? There sure a lot of great choices out there. I’ve added the Holo Spring 3 to the list now. Decisions, decisions...

It appears that most of the ones I’m interested don't reside in dealer showrooms, so at some point (soon) I'll have to figure out which one is going to work best for me and take the plunge.

@lula

The Merason is the DAC that I owned between the Pontus II and La Scala. Well-reviewed, as you likely know, and perhaps even a bit surprisingly used by Vinnie Rossi at the recent AXPONA audio show, to showcase his new Brahma integrated amp ($39,000), along with Qln speakers ($18k), and other expensive components.

I found the Merason to be a pleasing Delta/Sigma DAC, but like most of the reviewers whose related work I have read, I found it to be less neutral and detailed than the R2R DACs that I am familiar with. It tends to polish the edges of the high frequencies (especially), which can be beneficial with certain less-than-stellar quality recordings, but with better quality recordings, I felt as though there was some important information (i.e. details) missing. It produces a smooth, and slightly warm sound, I would say, and was somewhat reminiscent of the (excellent) internal DAC that was employed in the Electrocompaniet CD-1UP player that I used for many years.

Keep in mind that the designer of the Merason is a big vinyl fan, and chose, at least in part, to voice his DAC from that perspective.

Interestingly, one of the advantages of the La Scala that I have perceived is that it is not only outstanding in its detail retrieval, but also somehow seems to reduce the harshness of poor recordings at the same time. Not quite as much as the Merason (i.e. it is more transparent), but it is welcome nonetheless, and I suspect that it may be related to the tube output stage.

Note that I only have experience with the three, above-mentioned, stand-alone DACs in my home system, so I can only really compare them to one another. But the La Scala is, to my ears, a clear cut above the other two. I know that it is a cliche, but I actually am hearing very familiar recordings with fresh ears, so to speak, as the the Aqua DAC is able to flesh out details that I hadn’t previously noticed, and produce more palpable space, or "air" around the performers.

I have been struck in particular by piano, as the La Scala seems to have an ability to resolve related nuances in an unusually fine manner. If I had to guess, I would say that it may be related to the clocking aspect of the design, providing more realistic decay, etc.

It’s not that I don’t hear glorious details with other instruments – I do. But for the first time, I have the impression that piano recordings were somehow previously veiled, and are now being fully revealed.

One final note: some people whose ears I respect love the Merason, so this may well be another example of the importance of system synergy. My new-to-me FinkTeam KIM speakers are very revealing, and dynamic, and the La Scala is a better match than the Merason, to my ears. It reveals more of the potential of the speakers, yet without any apparent disadvantages.

I frankly can’t imagine having any urge to change DACs for a long time to come, and, even if I were to at some point, Aqua’s modular design provides intrinsic upgrade advantages.

Cheers,

Tony

@whipsaw 

Can you give a comparison of the Merason and Aqua La Scala?

Thanks,

Lula

Everyone has their preferences.  Mine is Audio GD r7he mkii.  It's sound is perfect and spot on musical. Excellent PRAT, never a hint of glare. Sound is very analog. Having the class A power supply really puts it a step above the others in its price range.  Skip Underwood and buy direct from Kingwa from Audio GD.  Then you will get a 10 year warranty and upgrades down the road. 

I've had a handful of DACs, Benchmark DAC3, Topping D90, Bryston BDA-3, Chord Qutest. I have now settled on a Denafrips Venus II, build quality is outstanding and sound quality is excellent, zero harshness, sounds very open, musical, tonality is very good, smooth and yet detailed at the same time. Alvin at Vinshine is also great to deal with, excellent customer service. The upgrade bug still persists a bit and the Holo Audio May KTE is tempting but I feel I may be nearing the point of diminishing marginal returns. Good luck.

I own this dac...Starting point system dac with internal battey for low noise and TDA 1543...I connected it to a linear supply...Minimal design ...

Quality/ price ratio over the roof...

With luck you will discover one at 100 bucks...

i am even afraid to upgrade it...

I cannot fault it in my room...

My imaging and any other acoustical characteristic are filling the room... Then....

But if you want a costly microscope dont look at it.... Here violin sound like violin in a room not violin under microscope.... 😁😊

I think i must buy a second one in case...

I own two Sansui amplifiers...

I am nut yes...

I owned two Tannoy speakers dual gold because i loved them so much...

😁😊

I cannot buy a second pair of my actual Mission Cyrus 781...I pay mine 40  bucks...

Anyway i am too old to double my wife...

I have owned three of the above-mentioned DACs, a Pontus II, Merason DAC-1, and Aqua La Scala. I am now very happy with the latter, though it isn't really fair to compare it to the Pontus, as the Terminator (or Holo May, etc.) are closer to its price point.

Audio Note Kit Dac 4.1 or 5.1.....they are awesome.....I have been through quite a few r2r dacs including the Terminator, Orchid, and such, and find the 4.1 to be absolutely fantastic.  Just does its job, no fuss.  Good luck.

Im watching an impressive in depth review, including what's under the hood: titled Holo Spring 3 R2R DAC  - Punching Up! on You Tube

Just like any component they are a personal choice especially dacs , I had the Terminator, tried the terminator plus , AudioByte Hydra Vox , Rockna WaveDream SE , Holo Audio May KTE and just recently replaced the May dac with Merason Dac 1 , so far I am most satisfied with the Merason for its musicality over the others .

I love my Aqua La Scala MKII Optologic DAC. It replaced an Auralic and was an immediate improvement to my system.

Aries Cerat Kassandra 2 Ref.

Following this discussion with interest.  The DAC market has changed so much in the last 2 years that I keep stopping myself from taking the plunge.  The problem is simply not being able to audition any in my area.  

+1 Holo Audio Spring / May - I am tempted to buy one (£3-4k?), even though I have not heard one and my current pre/amp DAC retails at nealry £10k (Ayon). There is a huge amount of positive feedback on this product.    

well done and well said @alvin1118

@chayro to your point about chords, there is a hugo tt2 in between the qutest and dave, it is an excellent alternative as well... those coupled with the m scaler yield some one of the finest digital front end sound available on the market, irrespective of cost... certainly not a value play though...

halo spring 3 is the newest r2r dac and it is amazing.

you should try to listen on youtube to see the video from differnet tester.

Get the Chord Electronics Qutest or if you have the budget, the Dave.  They use specialized FPGAs and are better than R2R DACs.

Thanks for the kind words and supports, gentlemen! 

Indeed, there are many choices of high performance R-2R DACs on the market right now. Let me start by saying this - we have great respect to other brands. We welcome and value healthy competitions. The positive drive of the healthy competition pushes us to a greater height. Ultimately, it is the consumers who will be benefited most - as the manufacturers forced to up their game to improve the products' performance. Agree? :)

Cheers,

Alvin Chee @ www.vinshineaudio.com

i would agree, having tried all denafrips dacs, that the pontus is the sweet spot in the line... 

ares 2 for me had sibilance issues

moving up the line, the higher tier ones are nice, but there are many many many alternatives in the 3 grand and up segment, most with more functionality and somewhat better sound

+2 for Denafrips DAC’s. I can’t say enough good things about my Pontus II and the excellent customer service I received from Alvin and his team at Denafrips.

Plus 1 for the Denafrips DAC's I started out with an Aries II.. Absolutely wonderful DAC for the $$. I just upgraded to the Pontus II and cant wait to add it to my system. They seem to offer some of the best products IMO.