To Fuse or Not to Fuse... That is the question!

Now, am I the only one who’s got experience with fancy fuses and no fuses at all?

Mr Kait’s fuses all blew long ago... ~<:-)

Fuses are connectors. Refreshing connectors has always paid dividends.

There is such a lack of rigor in 'fuse' testing that it would be laughable if it were not so sad.

rodman999994,063 posts10-13-2019 9:47am

"However energy is conveyed in only one direction, from source to load, putting aside reflection effects that occur mainly at RF frequencies."

+1

>>>>Upon further reflection 🤡 if current and voltage change direction wouldn’t the power change direction, too? Or does power have no direction? It’s a scalar quantity. So power doesn’t go in any direction. 🔛 Energy is also a scale quantity. No direction. 🔛

ieales

Now, am I the only one who’s got experience with fancy fuses and no fuses at all?

Mr Kait’s fuses all blew long ago... ~<:-)

Fuses are connectors. Refreshing connectors has always paid dividends.

There is such a lack of rigor in ’fuse’ testing that it would be laughable if it were not so sad.

>>>>Why, are you volunteering? No need to reply, it’s a rhetorical question, Mr. Eels

Elizabeth

Thanks to you in part I am experimenting with wood. I formally stacked my components and now have my 2 amps and Preamp sitting side-by-side on a nifty wife approved 2" thick walnut table. Sure looks better! Still sitting on stock feet tho, need to correct that! 

I ran the stereo all night playing the Irrational but Effacious CD in an attempt to burn in the new ceramic fuses. The music has smoothed out, but has not reached it's former glory. 

This game would be much easier to play if not for burn in.

At what (BurnIn / BurnOut) is nirvana attained?

After well over 40 years of using  a McIntosh 2105 with regular fuses, and then a boutique fuse, I went all the way and replaced it with a piece of high purity silver wire. Stupid? Probably. But it's been there for 10 years with no issues. 

ieales, I am guessing no easy answer to how long does burn in nirvana takes. In my quest to upgrade my NAD stuff, I took all three units in and had my guy replace all the caps, wires and whatever else he could to upgrade the units. $850 in parts.  I was deeply depressed when I got it all back. All the warmth and richness was gone. It sounded horrid. I ran it 24/7 for a few weeks with all sorts of music plus the Effacious CD. Finally, it started to sound musical again... and then better than before.

Most of these tweaks, Do make a difference. But one has to enjoy the journey.

ieales
At what (BurnIn / BurnOut) is nirvana attained?

>>>>I’d rather have a bottle in front of me than a frontal lobotomy. 🤡

I'm a firm believer, in wood.   The harder, the better!

Regarding energy flow/transfer; anyone, with even an iota of scientific awareness, should be familiar with the Second Law of Thermodynamics! http://www.ftexploring.com/energy/2nd_Law.html

That actually is irrelevant to the argument. Thanks anyway!

roxy54

I know it was 10 years ago, but how did the sound change after you silver wired your McIntosh?

If one fails to grasp the concept of energy ALWAYS flowing, from a greater to a lesser potential(ie: a generating station, to an amp’s power supply), they can’t have much of a foundation, for their purported knowledge, let alone their, "argument".

I just finished explaining, energy is a scalar, it has no direction. It doesn’t flow. Hel-loo! Current is the flow of electrical charge. Charge flows.

Note to self: try not to get into physics arguments with English majors.

Almarg is probably thinking to himself, darn, I knew I shouldn’t have posted on this thread. 🤡

Nothing here folks, and my comment still stands (regardless of Kaitty's regular supply of nonsensical attempts at insult over reasoned response)...fuses are met with a mishmash of wires and traces of which no regard has been given to direction, thus utterly rendering fuse direction meaningless, and power supplies, chokes, rectifiers, and a myriad of relevant bits simply are not subject to any performance enhancement from a fuse...they're simply not in spite of bloviating purveyors of expectation bias enhancing hyperbole.

Geoffkait 10-13-2019
I just finished explaining, energy is a scalar, it has no direction. It doesn’t flow. Hel-loo!

Correction: You just finished **claiming** that "energy is a scalar, it has no direction. It doesn’t flow."

Also, it’s worth noting that energy = power x time. Or putting it another way, power = energy per unit time. So the power company provides both power and energy to the homes and businesses of its customers, conveying both in one direction via wires. Just as an amplifier provides power and energy to speakers, conveying both in one direction via the speaker cables (although "back-emf" generated by the speakers may be conveyed in the opposite direction via those cables).

Everything Mr. Rodman has said in his recent posts on this subject is correct. And considering that the subject of the thread is fuse vs. no fuse I will not discuss this issue any longer.

Regards,
-- Al

Even though you probably won’t respond, almarg, you’re wrong. It is not something I made up. Energy and power are both scalar quantities. I must have had more physics in school than you did. It’s you who made it up. You could have at least checked Wikipedia. 🤡

You say you won’t come back to this thread. Is that a promise or a threat? These little drive by shootings of yours are not very becoming.

You say you won’t come back to this thread.

I didn’t say that. I said that I will no longer discuss "this issue," i.e., whether or not energy and power flow.  And I didn't say that energy and power are not scalar quantities.

Regards,
-- Al

No fuse sounds better until a power surge fries your gear :)

Energy, power, current, they all are part of the fuse vs no fuse discussion. You cannot separate them. As I said already, I am the only one present here who has experience with both the fancy fuse and no fuse cases. When you use low power components as I do, just in case no one picked up on it, battery-powered CD player, there is no need for a fuse, any fuse, there isn’t even a place to put a fuse if you wanted to. That’s the no fuse case. As opposed to the fuse bypass case which is yet another case.

A big shout out to the guys who got the Nobel Prize for Chemistry for inventing the Lithium battery last week. 🤡

I’d forgotten a conversation, months back, in which Geoff informed me, "energy is nothing." I mentioned that they’d just disproved Relativity and decided any further discussions with them, would be folly. Gotta work on my memory(my Physics is just fine)!

I’m sure you’re mixing me up with someone else. Never said it. Why would I say It? Why would anyone say it? I suggest you eat more fish 🐟 🐠 

As for your silly law of thermodynamics comment you might as well say, The sky is blue.

captaindidactic,
I wasn't saying that I rewired the amp with silver wire, I was saying that I substituted a fuse for a piece of silver wire.

roxy54

Sorry if I wasn't clear. Yes, I knew you substituted silver wire instead of the fuse. I was just wondering how the sound changed when you did that. Bypassing the fuses is exactly what I am thinking of doing instead of using Boutique fuses. 

no fuse I will not discuss this issue any longer.

Regards,
-- Al

I'm with you Al, it's also stupidity of the highest order to bypass mains fuses, and to play around with them to see which direction sounds better is ludicrous, and then to tell the "gullible" to do it is down right dangerous.

This thread has been reported to admin, to be moved to "Misc Audio" and with an Audigon disclaimer, should someone should get hurt doing this ****, because of the stupidity of others telling them it ok to do so.

Cheers George  

Another troll who refuses to discuss the issue any longer...discusses the subject. Oh, and thanks a bunch for all the valuable insights, Georgie! 🤡

jburidan. Nice comment! First off, I have a whole house surge protector, secondly, I have all stuff plugged into a second surge protector. 

The question here isn't should I hardwire everything, the question is " if one hardwires components does it improve the quality of the sound over a boutique fuse??? Only two people have responded the question. 

George, while I appreciate your concern for me and others, Running to Daddy? This is less about safety and more about your refusal to even consider that the changing of fuses could possibly alter the sound. But, have Never tried any of these things. So, for the record, I wasn't seeking your opinion, nor the other nay-sayers. I was asking people who had experimented with direct wiring the fuse. 

You’ve now been told here by a couple of members who have more Electronic Engineering knowledge in their little pinkie than all of you "mains fusers" have collectively.

And what your doing and telling the "gullible" to do, is down right dangerous, and liable.

I have told no one to do such a thing. I asked a question. Can you not read? 

I have told no one to do such a thing. I asked a question. Can you not read?

Really!!! because indirectly just you did not listing the others. 

I may be in the near future buying copper tubing and installing it in place of a fuse

Ok, what I meant by No Fuse, was bypassing the fuse with copper or silver wire.

Ok.. I think I understand that no fuse is better than a cheap fuse.

 McIntosh 2105 with regular fuses,  I went all the way and replaced it with a piece of high purity silver wire. How did the sound change after you silver wired your McIntosh?

I am frantically searching a previous post in hopes to find what I think I read, that someone bypassed the fuses

It's this kind of suggestive talk that will maybe end someones life, this is a dangerous practice. Fuses have no direction, and do not sound better.

The only way a fuse can sound better if it's replaced with an old crusty one that seen many switch on surges.
A slow-blo ageing right to left
https://peakpinball.com/wp-content/uploads/2013/01/fuse-8312-640x426.jpg

A fast-blo ageing left to right
https://i.stack.imgur.com/0uqWX.jpg%20

Your better off spending $2 on an original new fuse, and save yourself >$98 as the ageing process will happen just as fast with the >$100 fuse.

Cheers George

Build or modify gear to be mains fuseless. Simply bypass the fuse using proper gauge and insulated wire and install a Eaton/Heinemann on/off circuit breaker switch. I use 14 gauge solid core copper wire from Neotech in the power supply of my builds. This arrangement sounds better based on my listening and past builds/mods.

In the rare instance of an electrical issue the unit shuts down. No poor sounding cheap fuse or even big dollar expensive fuse to replace. Sounds better and costs less. High quality circuit breaker on/off switches are not sonically perfect, but they are less of a sonic compromise than a fuses. 

I suspect maybe my oft-repeated claim that “no fuse is better than any fuse” may have been misinterpreted. I was referring to my battery-powered CD player, which doesn’t require a fuse, any fuse, for obvious reasons. So, no fuse is just one advantage of many why a battery-powered, low-power, low mass, minimal design system can outperform. 

A reason why it may be worthwhile to point out and/or emphasize the risks of bypassing a fuse is that some people, including some experienced audiophiles, simply don't have knowledge of what the purpose of an AC mains fuse is.  Which is not to say they are stupid; it is just to say that their backgrounds are such that they haven't gained that knowledge. 

As evidence of that I recently had occasion to post the following statement in the thread entitled "Something For The Fuse Guys":

Almarg 9-26-2019
I just want to state a point of information: Posts that have been made by at least three different members appear to imply that the purpose of an AC mains fuse in a component is to provide protection against surges in the incoming AC. While it is possible that an AC mains fuse might do that under some circumstances, that is not its intended purpose. Its intended purpose is to blow if a fault within the component causes it to draw excessive AC current. Thereby preventing **additional** damage to the component that may otherwise occur, as well as preventing the possibility of the component overheating or even bursting into flames as a result of the excessive current being drawn.

Regards,
-- Al

elizabeth"I have read about tube amps bursting into flames"

Amplifiers intended for use in Music Reproduction Systems that burst unexpectedly into flames is not limited, confined, or exclusive to "tube" amplifiers perhaps the most famous, legendary, and most notable of these would be the "Flame Linear" (Phase Linear) and "SureFire" (Sunfire) amplifiers that are the exclusive design, manufacture, and creation of the legendary Bob Carver!

I had a six-hour listening session with a fellow A'goner yesterday. The system sounded glorious with the new SR Orange fuses in the circuit. There's been a very nice improvement overall. The mid-bass has acquired a touch of warmth that is very inviting and emotionally involving. Vocals are amazing. Percussion is real. No joke.

PS: Nothing burst into flames. 

Frank

Anybody willing to risk home and life for this hobby is whacko.

Ok, I am gonna try to summarize and wrap up this dangerous and provoking thread. 

The original question that got bent out of shape is " Does bypassing the fuse sound better than even the best fuse, even the Orange? 

The reason for the question was to determine whether the fuse is actually adding some sound quality to the system. Somehow actually enhancing the sound quality versus just being a higher quality "wire" that also has fuse protection. 

The only way to test this theory would to compare/contrast hard-wired versus the best fuse. So I then asked the question had anyone done this and what were their findings?

I received two answers. One, had bypassed with silver wire and then used a "boutique" fuse and found that he liked the fuse sound better. That's one for the fuse actually improving the sound over bypass. The second answer was inconclusive. Someone silver-wired their McIntosh 10 years ago with no problems. But, didn't say whether or not it improved the sound over a Boutique fuse.

We had people chiming in with age-old opinions on both sides of the fence. Some were very concerned for my safety and the safety of others. Thank you for that! 

However, we are still left with the question "Do quality fuses enhance the sound over direct wiring past the fuses"?

So, someones gotta do it! Call me Wacko but unless someone takes the chance to test one's questions where would we be in life? So, after ensuring that my whole house surge protector is functioning, my power strip surge protector also functioning, the batteries in the smoke detector changed, my fire insurance increased to lofty heights, all loved ones evacuated and only casual audiophile friends of which I don't give a whit about their safety that are each equipped with fire extinguishers, I may TEMPORARILY bypass the fuses just to hear whether or not fuses help or hinder the sound. Why Temporarily??? Well what fool would leave a fire hazard like that installed I ask you? My goodness! But. then I suppose to complete the test I will have to pony up to at least some Blue's to hear the difference. 

So far, the new ceramics are still burning in and George could be right? Maybe I should have just left the stock fuses in there? Time will tell!

Unless someone has something constructive to add, I consider this thread to be closed!

Signed,
Going where No One has Gone Before

So, the big question is, drum roll, are the ceramics in the right direction? 🤡

Captain,

Just for the record, none of those things including external surge protectors will help  if the missing fuse is needed to do its intended job  while swapped out.   

On the flip side,  device events that cause a fuse to blow do not happen often normally so at least the odds are good of not causing damage.   However the longer the fuse is not in play, the more chance there is of damage occurring.

So with that in mind, have at it if you must.   The best anyone can do is remind people fuses are there for a reason (and its not because of how they "sound")  and no manufacturer if asked  would ever approve of customers replacing fuses with wire.

Ah, the voice of reason. 🙄

Define TUNING.