Not familiar with your preamp, but for $1K I’d keep your current table and either spend a little to upgrade your cartridge or look into a dedicated phono preamp. Not sure spending what your budget is on a new deck is really going to improve things. A cartridge or phono preamp likely will though.
Time to upgrade my turntable?
I'm thinking about getting a new turntable to replace my 4 year old Pro-ject Debut Carbon with an acrylic platter and 2M Blue cartridge (with about 600 hours on it). My budget right now is about $1000 but would consider spending a bit more for right turntable. Currently my system consists of a Sansui B-2101 2 amp (200 wpc) powering ADS L1290 speakers (the speakers will be upgraded shortly to ADS L1590's when I find and replace a couple drivers). I am using a Yamaha DSP A1 as the preamp (I like the DSP sound fields that imitate jazz clubs and concert halls). I do have the matching Sansui C-2101 preamp but it is not currently in line. I also use a DBX 3BX DS impact restorer and expander/compressor.
I listen to classical music and jazz.
What would you suggest? I might prefer to stay within the Pro-ject line as I could reuse the acrylic platter (if one is not provided with the recommended turntable). Perhaps the debut pro or X1?
I listen to classical music and jazz.
What would you suggest? I might prefer to stay within the Pro-ject line as I could reuse the acrylic platter (if one is not provided with the recommended turntable). Perhaps the debut pro or X1?
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You have a pretty good turntable considering the rest of your system. My rule of thumb is always upgrade 2x or 3x the cost to get a significant improvement. Particularly the lower the initial cost. I would save up to make a bigger jump. This should put your TT in a level above the reat if your equipment. It will give you a noticeable improvement. Then save up to get a better preamp or speakers… this way you can raise the performance stepwise getting an incremental improvement each component, and long term upgrade the whole system to a new level. This is the way most of us with really good systems got there. Sideways moves are disappointing and demotivating. |
What would you suggest? I might prefer to stay within the Pro-ject line as I could reuse the acrylic platter (if one is not provided with the recommended turntable). No offense, but not the greatest reasoning. You've already got some good advice, in terms of baby steps are not the way to go. Your goal should be to save up for one that will be not a little but a whole lot better, and last you for years. Personally, I think the best approach from here on out is to consider table and arm separately. For several reasons. It is usually hard to save up. For whatever amount you can manage, it will get you a lot more quality spent on just the arm, or just the table, than a package. Also those who make arms to be sold separately, they really have to make a good arm because people are going to compare. That being the whole point. Whereas those like VPI making packages, pretty much nobody ever takes one of those arms off and that is how they get away with BS like their twisted wire side bias. Not to pick on VPI. Same goes for everyone else selling packages. I just like slamming the dumbest side bias in the business. Finally, buying them separately forces you to learn a whole lot more about the value of each part, how it works, and how it sounds. Vinyl isn't like digital. You don't just push a button. The sound quality you get is as much to do with your skill level as anything else. Skills cost no money, but pay off big time. Invaluable difference. But you deserve an answer for your $1k. The best one I know is it makes no sense to upgrade to a new component before extracting full performance from what you have. The more constrained the budget the more true this is. So put that table on some Townshend Pods, or a Platform, whichever you prefer and can make work. This will almost certainly be a greater improvement than the same money spent on a new table. If you want to go cheaper, and test the waters, get a set of Nobsound springs. Only $30. Then when you hear how good this works upgrade to Townshend and move the Nobsound down the chain to your amp or phono stage or whatever. The more experience you get with how music is supposed to sound the easier it will be to ditch that expander DSP stuff that is messing up all the good vibes coming off your vinyl. Selling those will free up funds for that new table and arm. |
I’m thinking about getting a new turntable to replace my 4 year old Pro-ject Debut Carbon with an acrylic platter and 2M Blue cartridge (with about 600 hours on it). My budget right now is about $1000 but would consider spending a bit more for right turntable. Your elliptical stylus tip is probably worn out with 600 hrs on it, replace the stylus with higher model (advanced profile). If you want to upgrade the SOUND this is all you need to know and it’s written by ORTOFON: "Cartridge is the key factor in high fidelity reproduction of phonograph records. This is logical, since the cartridge, via the stylus, makes the first and only contact with the record. It is the unit which transforms groove undulations into electrical signals. The stylus has to move (to the left and right, up and down) at very high speeds, deal with extremely high forces, yet maintain surface contact at tracking forces consistent with low record wear, and ensure high channel separation for stereo reproduction. It is cartridge performance, therefore, that determines basic sound quality before the signals are amplified and played through your loudspeakers. Advanced stylus profile (natural diamond) distributes the stylus pressure over a much wider contact area within the groove than is possible with conventionally shaped diamonds. This provides greatly reduced wear on both record and stylus at the recommended tracking force. In addition, the advanced stylus profile (such as FineLine, Replicant-100, Shibata, LineContact, Stereohedron, MicroLine or MicroRidge…) also provides better tracking ability and lower distortion at high frequencies in the critical inner turns of the groove. Compared with other stylus materials the advanced profiles do cost more, but the extra expense is fully justified by the resulting superior performance and extended life." |
The biggest upgrade you could make would be to ditch all of that signal processing for a good two channel integrated amp. A lot of newbies think they like the gimmicky sound fields, but once you’ve heard two channel done right, you won’t worry about all that hokey stuff.+1 @ozzy62 This is my thinking as well after looking at your system. Forget the TT & get a proper preamp. If you like the DSP over your Sansui C-2101 preamp its a good indication that the caps (among other things) are dried up. IF the caps haven’t been replaced in the amp, get it recapped as well. As others have said, your existing TT matches the system. New caps in amp and new/used preamp will improve that TT a lot. |
Ok, I'm gonna go out on a limb here and recommend a tt system. Keep in mind these are similar components to what the OP has, only upgraded and better sounding. IMO. And all within his budget. Turntable: Rega P2 Cartridge: Nagaoka MP-110 Phono preamp: Schiit Mani I have heard all my recommendations, and also what the OP currently has. I know there can be many other worthwhile recommendations, but these are some I am familiar with. Just my 2 cents worth, nothing more, nothing less. Hope I can be of some help to the OP. |
Re stylus life … Most of the research I have done … and of course some you take with a salt lick … std elliptical usually go north of 1000 hours (but less than 2000, some a lot less) IF you keep the stylus and records clean. Ortofon themselves say fine at 1000 and distortion by 2000. If you look at a number of users especially those that have examined with a microscope, I see a range of 1000-1500. Conicals won’t last as long … hyper elliptical, line contact, Shibata will last longer. Thats what my research has yielded, take FWIW. |
And my $0.02 … I do think your system is pretty well-balanced, which is a 2-edged sword … makes it hard to get a big improvement for $1000. Others have said this. I don’t THINK your stylus is worn and needs replacement, but then I don’t know how/if you clean your stylus and records. Best to examine it. If truly warn, then yes you can get a decent margin of improvement with a new stylus … believe blue is the end of the line with that body and need a whole cartridge to get to bronze or black, so that also opens up other possibilities. I would suggest you consider SoundSmith Carmen … it is really good, at your $1000 budget, AND they will retip for only 20% ($200) so you can double it’s life. If stylus is good, I would save up more for next component, and I think preamp or phono preamp would be next. (Or by that time, it may be replacing your entire table, but I do think otherwise you have other weak link(s), and wholesale table/arm/cart will put you in the $3k range unless going used. Again, FWIW and YMMV |
Stylus life! This "article" above is nonsense, because each stylus profile is different, we have Conical and F.Gyger and the life span difference between them is HUGE! CHECK RELIABLE SOURCE SoundSmith: "We believe that styli should be checked carefully by microscopic exam by someone who knows what to look for at 1000 hours, as that is the typical maximum life for a properly aligned stylus before record damage begins." Apparently according to Jico (manufacturer of the highly regarded SAS stylus), the amount of playing time where a stylus will maintain its specified level of distortion at 15kHz is as follows:
"This is not to say that at 500 hrs a SAS stylus is "worn out" - but at that stage the wear has reached the point where distortion at 15kHz surpasses the level specified by Jico for a new stylus. (Which I believe is 3%). Some manufacturers have traditionally defined a stylus as being "worn out" when it starts to damage the record... in these terms the figures provided by Jico can at least be doubled, and in some cases quadrupled. In pure sonic terms on pristine vinyl a top notch elliptical can do as well as all but the very best Line Contact / Shibata styli, but will ultimately be surpassed by the better MicroLine styli. However in terms of reduced wear on both stylus and records - the entry point is the Line contact / Shibata category. In terms of playing back worn vinyl line contact stylus types also have an advantage in that they can contact "virgin" unworn vinyl. Narrower side radius = improved tracking and reduced high frequency distortion." |
@chakster , Can't argue with any of that. Somebody should make an inexpensive cartridge distortion analyzer. You can see the distortion headed upwards and know that it is time to replace the stylus before damage sets in. You'd buy one in a heartbeat if the price was reasonable. Probably could do it with any computer, a program and the right interface/ADC. I bet it could be done for less than $300. @ozzy62 , no, you are definitely not a wet behind the ears noob. Dry behind the ears maybe. @mr_m , Sorry but I have to disagree. That was 3 cents worth. @artemus_5 , you should be be so negative about DSP. You will also be using it eventually. Actually, you already are. Every recent recording you have was manipulated by DSP. Ignorance is bliss. |
Many different angles given here all valid given certain circumstances. I'll offer another alternative. Why not just go with an MC? There are better turntables than the Pro-Ject Debut, but its not bad by any means and I think your tone are may handle MC; just verify that you can adjust VTA and Azimuth. I'd recommend the Hana SH (High output MC). With 2mV output you can plug right into your MM port. Sound quality improvement will be significantly noticeable for $750 and will buy you time to research all the options. I enjoyed the Ortofon 2M Blue, was more impressed with the 2M Black's detail and deep bass capability, but found the nude elliptical on the Black to be very unforgiving and best used only on pristine vinyl. My vinyl collection varies. The Hana SH is even more detailed, natural then the Ortofon 2M Black and unlike the 2M Black, more forgiving on worn vinyl. When you get ready to move on a new turntable you can transfer the Hana over as it will pair well with much higher level tone arms and turntables. |
$1000 won’t get you an improvement, but $1500 might. Speaking from experience, I went from the same Pro-ject table you have, to the $1500 Marantz TT15S1. It’s a table made by ClearAudio for Marantz. Very noticeable upgrade over the Pro-ject and one of the best turntable bargains out there. It uses the ClearAudio Satisfy tonearm and original version of the CA Virtuoso Wood cart. Look up what those two components sell for separately, and you’ll see what an incredible deal the Marantz is. |
One other note; you may want to consider the Audiogon vendors (TMR, etc.) that will take your Pro-Ject in trade. Some offer consignment as an alternative to trade-in price. I've found consignment almost doubles the trade-in value and only takes 4-6 weeks to complete a sale. There's also on-line vendors with robust trade in programs on most equipment like Hi-Fi Heaven and Overture. |
Ortofon can be expected to claim the cartridge is the most important element. But the best cartridge in the world will sound terrible if the turntable and arm are not well enough engineered to retain the stylus in precisely the correct orientation in the groove. Just a micron or two will really screw it up and there are three dimensions to keep right. I have nothing against Ortofon; I have their Anna and A90 and both are absolutely top-grade. |
This Technics SL-1200GR or SL-1500C would be a nice upgrade. It might be more than your budget but you set 'em and forget 'em! https://www.technics.com/us/products/grand-class/sl1200g-series/sl-1200gr.html https://www.technics.com/us/products/premium-class/sl-1500c.html |
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mijostyn
you should be be so negative about DSP. You will also be using it eventually. Actually, you already are. Every recent recording you have was manipulated by DSP. Ignorance is bliss. They also use reverb, delay, compressors & all kinds of equipment to MAKE the recordings that aren't used in playback. There is a difference between MAKING and PLAYING a recording. I see your problem. You don't know Shite from Shimola. But I suspect it makes for a blissful life for you. |
This Technics SL-1200GR or SL-1500C would be a nice upgrade. It might be more than your budget but you set 'em and forget 'em! Right, between GR and 1500c I would add new mk7 which is exactly $1000 with warranty, sometimes it cost even less! The problem with some audiogon posters is complete lack of knowledge about Technics products and other Japanese Direct Drives, most people brainwashed by belt drive propaganda. |
Ortofon can be expected to claim the cartridge is the most important element. But the best cartridge in the world will sound terrible if the turntable and arm are not well enough engineered to retain the stylus in precisely the correct orientation in the groove. People do not use GRAMOPHONES these days, modern turntables are very well engineered and tonearms are nice, even those cheap Rega and Project are good toys. Platter will make far less difference than a cartridge for example. Any modern phonostage can work nicely with MM, even Schiit mani for $100. Better cartridge will make any mediocre system better. |
High end / high fidelity sound is about taking extreme care of the signal start to finish. The straight wire paradigm is used throughout the industry to achieve this. Avoid playing with the signal or making the path longer. If you want to improve the sound of your system then I would concentrate on removing any electronics that does DSP or has tone controls. I would switch back to your Sansui preamp and if that is not a great improvement then invest a couple grand in a used high end preamp. This should significantly improve your system far beyond what a turn table change will do. The preamp is the heart of any good system and is worth investing in. The results will then reflect your other components. I highly recommend Robert Harley’s book: The Complete Guide to High End Audio to orient you to this wonderful pursuit. |
Hello, I like the idea of the Nagaoka MP110. I have it on one of my turntables. $150 is not a lot to spend to have a nice sound. I have a Schiit Mani pho preamp. It works well with the Nag. But I say pass. Too light. Another option is replace the stylus on you 2m blue. That might cost less than the Nag MP110 cart. Both are elliptical. Skip the Rega p2. It’s about the same as what you have with a worse cart. Save up. You can read all of these forums for ideas. You should skip Rega to get adjustable VTA. This is very important not just for fitting but also for dialing in the sound. You have to use shims with Rega. If 600 hours says your cart is dead then replace it with the same thing or the Nag MP110. Save the $850 and more for your new table. I would say the VPI Prime scout. I think you could get one used for $1700. This will cover you for a long time. For the phono preamp I am going to suggest the Sutherland TZ Vibe for $1400 with a new MC cart of your choice. |