Thoughts on VTA......
Then there is another camp who set by ear.
My thoughts/questions on this subject arise from vinyl thickness difference.
Surely going from a flimsy flier early 70,s vinyl to a later 180 or even 200gm issue is going to change that painstakingly set VTA considerably.
So thoughts rattling round is why go to all that trouble when it IS going to change depending on the vinyl played?
To my mind it would appear that one of the arms that includes on the fly VTA adjustment would be the answer.
Your opinions or suggestions?
When I had my first turntable which was a Dual 1214 you basically mounted the cartridge.( If I remember it had a rotating clamp interface). You set the crude stylus force adjustment and you started to listen to records. The year was probably 1972 and I was just a young teenager and I do not recall VTA, SRA, azimuth, anti-skating, etc. Done In 1976 and I purchased my Thorens TD165 which I still have (upgraded now) and I was introduced to anti-skating with the little swinging Thorens weight. Still somewhat of a mystery but I set up the cartridge to the Thorens headshell gauge set the tracking force, the anti-skating per the manual and started listening to records. Done Flash forward to current day and the discussions on turntable setup are infinite and I believe that some of this adjusting setup per every record, digital microscopes for set up, oscilloscopes, volt meters, special software, etc has taken out the enjoyment of listening to vinyl. The Holy Grail that people are searching for is lost within the manufacturing process variation of all the components in the listening chain. IMHO. Buy a decent turntable with a decent cartridge, set it up to the manufactures recommendations, clean your records (cannot stress this enough) and enjoy the music. |
I do it by ear. Too high, and sibilance occurs; too low, and bass goes woolly. There is no one ideal permanent setting due to the variability of LP's thicknesses and the angle of cutting heads used to make the album in the first place. I happen to have a VPI with an easily on-the-fly adjuster, and I don't think I would ever get another turntable without an easily adjustable VTA. |
Dear @orpheus10 : The only way to be sure the VTA/SRA is the best that permit that cartridge/tonearm couple is through playback tests doing VTA/changes to determine with which VTA/SRA change ( up or down. ) the quality level of what we are listening is higher. This is a test VTA/SRA proccess making it through an overall evaluation comparison proccess using always the same LPs tracks, tracks that we know in deep. You can do it through using some shims that I know came with Rega tonearms. Perhaps what you are looking at eye level could means almost nothing for all what I said in my last post and what other gentlemans said in my post : You can read something additional in this information I pasted from other forum: " that, IIRC, at least one stylus manufacturer ( SoundSmith ) explicitly states not to use visual means to verify SRA - because the actual cut of the stylus often has no real relationship to the profile of the stylus as viewed from the side with a magnifying glass. " Anyway, you have to test to live the VTA/SRA experiences in your own room/system and then decide about. R. |
Raul, I'm looking at my stylus at eye level, with the diamond just sitting on the record, and it looks precisely like the drawing on this link. https://www.tnt-audio.com/sorgenti/vta_e.html This is with the Rega arm and table. If this is what the wood bodied Grado Master looks like, what adjustment do you think I need? |
Dear @orpheus10 : I read that link the same year appeared in TNT but that article does not confirms that you are rigth. In the other side neither R.Gandy Rega designer said that. Rega designer said that cartridge alignment and VTA ( between other set up parameters ) are " aproximations " ( you can read in the Rega tonearm manual. ) and he is rigth but he did not said anywhere that VTA/SRA changes does not " affect " the sound quality we are listening. Yes, we can't match exactly the cartridge ridding stylus tip with the groove LP modulations do that we need it not mm. VTA/SRA changes but cms. that precludes to do it. The other problem is the totally LP imperfections that impedes accurazy in the cartridge/tonearm set up. RG said " aproximmations " and in the case of pivoted tonearm designs the geometry alignment is exactly that way because always exist a tracking error that we can't avoid it. In the case of VTA/SRA ( RG said is: futile distress about. ) it's the same for different reasons than the alignment regards. VTA/SRA changes at each single LP groove do to micro-waves that we can't even seen/ca'n detect. Exist no single truly flat LP surface at micro level that's where the cartridge stylus tip works. Even that and that we can't match the LP grooves by VTA/SRA changes these VTA/SRA changes makes a difference in the quality sound we are listening and only a deaf person can't detect it and I'm totally sure that RG is not deaf. He said that " VTA is a Neurosis not a technical adjustment ". To each his own. I respect his opinion but I know he is wrong as you been a follower of him in this regards. Of course that if the changes in VTA/SRA are " minute " ones we can't detect it but all depends on the quality level of the tonearm, cartridge and set up along the home room/system resolution levels. Btw, it is weird that RG does not gives to much importance to the cartridge/tonearm overall set up when in his own Rega recordings he takes care in deep at each single link on that recording proccess from the microphones selections and position passing for the micro electronics mixing that he designed and builded and self modifications in the recording R2R he uses. He is way demanding of quality there and I know because I own some of his recordings where comes all the explanation detail how that recording was made it. Btw, I found a gentleman through the net that posted : " I have spoken to Roy Gandi a few times on the phone. He does have very definite ideas on what a TT should and should not do. Equally I have spoken to Tom Fletcher (Nottingham) on the phone. He too has very definite ideas on all things TT. Both are respected manufacturers and both have a very dedicated following. Generally they agree on the big picture but not on the details. From what I have seen adjustment of VTA is not merely a case of how close you get to the angle of the cutting head. It is more about optimizing the balance of arm and cantilever to ensure the diamond rides optimally in the groove. I think most people will agree that there can be quite dramatic changes in the musical presentation....... " the key there is: optimizing the balance of arm and cantilever to ensure the diamond/stylus tip optimally in the groove... " That's the best we can approach ( " optimally " with unavoidable restrictions. ), yes faraway from precise but that's all we can do and makes a difference. That's LP analog. Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
Raul, you and everyone else posting on this thread should read this article carefully; https://www.tnt-audio.com/sorgenti/vta_e.html In regard to the music, and the non-adjustable VTA of the Rega tone arm; as long as I'm enjoying the best music I have ever heard in my life from records that I've heard a zillion times before now, and the Rega Tone arm is assisting in my euphoria; the case is closed and moot. |
Dear @orpheus10 : "
VTA must not be that important, .." For Rega and for you it's not but for the MUSIC any one ( including you. ) is listening through a home audio system certainly is important and critical adjustement set up parameter. What you think or what Rega thinks is totally uninportant and useless to say the least. R. |
Dear @cleeds : Did you already do it what I said in my post about?, just do it with that tiny level at the headshell and make a significant up and down VTA/SRA changes for you can see that " characteristic ". If you made tiny tiny VTA/SRA changes you can't detect it. We have to do it to attest it or not attest it. R. |
Post removed |
rauliruegas ... each time we make changes in VTA/SRA the AZ changed too ...If your pickup arm’s azimuth changes when you raise or lower it to adjust VTA/SRA, then it is defective in either design or manufacture. Or both. Changing alignment in one plane should not alter alignment in another plane. |
Raul, why do you write that azimuth always changes with changes in arm height? I thought the SME V arms and their variants had a bearing offset angle that matches the headshell offset angle which solves this problem. Older SME arms have bearings perpendicular to the main arm tube and in this case the azimuth does change. Also, did you ever complete your tonearm design? How did you address some of the issues raised in this thread? |
Dear @viridian : First than all I'm like you: a music lover, difference is that things are that I not only want that my LPs be listenable but with the best quality performance levels my ignorance permits to achieve. Yes I´m an audiophile too and no no 78rpm recordings. Like you I attend at least one day each week to listen live MUSIC. R. |
Post removed |
Dear @uberwaltz @stringreen @viridian : The name of the game with cartridge/tonearm/LP is accuracy in the overall set up. First target is an accurate cartridge/tonearm geometry alignment choosed: accurated P2S distance, accuarted overhang and accurated offset angle. We can be " anal " to set up the VTA/SRA parameter or all the other ones named here but even that we made it with a true reference as live MUSIC ( not Tidal or LPs. ) things are so imperfect in LPs manufacture that with the same LP things are " perfect " in side 1 but for different reasons the quality level performance in the side 2 is well different ! ! ? ? In the other side each time we make changes in VTA/SRA the AZ changed too. Any one can use a tiny level at the headshell and make a significant change on VTA up and down and you will see that AZ always change. With some parameters exist an intrinsecal relationship that make imposible that each one of them stays " perfect " and no matter what the LP/analog imperfections will make that our hard and time consuming work falls down. As better the audio system resolution as wider range margin/limit we have for the VTA/SRA set up, the window is a little wider ( quality really acceptable. Obviously is one and only one point where belongs " perfect " VTA/SRA. ) and that permits that even with all LP imperfections we can stay nearer to the VTA/SRA accurate target. Those LP/analog imperfections impedes that all of us can have precise/no-compromise rules about because that does not exist and additional to that the tracking error in pivoted tonearms at each single groove makes things more complicated. Again, what we want to do must has a reference and mine always is live MUSIC at nera field position not: " I like it that way " with no true/real coherent reference at all. Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
Post removed |
When I have azimuth corrected, the soundspace opens with increased depth and air. Height adjustment brings bass tubbiness, or string screetch.... Height of tonearm also varies VTF, and overhang. Use a magnifying glass to see that as you raise, or lower the arm, it moves farther away one way or another from the inscribed line of an arc protractor. I find that the manufacturers recommendation for VTF is best. That way, the suspension system is aligned as intended. Some people call the assiduous tinkering with all these adjustment a pain....others savor the results of a properly adjusted arm. |
Post removed |
@wrm57 And finally! That was EXACTLY my point. I have a lot of lightweight and heavyweight albums and although my hearing is not what it was I swear I can tell a difference between the varying weights of lps. Unfortunately neither of my arms have on the fly VTA adjustment so it is not practical right now. Still think I will look for an arm with VTA otf. |
Raul is right, of course, that time is precious and trying to obtain the perfect VTA for each LP side is a waste of it. But at the same time, VTA close to perfect always sounds better, and obviously so. I won't own an arm without VTA adjustment that is easy to perform and precisely repeatable. With any kind of built-in micrometer the setting is quick and simple: you just establish a baseline (say, for 140g LPs) and then remember how much you need to raise for 180g. You can easily tell the different weight LPs by their flexibility with a little practice. If you have a 160g, raise by half; a 120g, lower by half. It's not perfect but very, very close, and takes 2 or 3 seconds. If I forget to do it, I notice the difference in sound. |
Dear @uberwaltz / friends: Different cartridge paremeters set up are for different main issues. Overhang and offset angle are for geometry alignment tonearm/cartridge set up and mainly to puts at minimum the pivoted tonearm/cartridge tracking error and the developed tracking distortion levels. In the other side VTF is mainly to the LOMC coils stays centered and to avoid cartridge mis-tracking. VTA/SRA/AZ are to permit that extremely stylud tip to pick up the maximum true/rigth information recorded on those grooves modulations putting at minimum the developed tracking distortions when the stylus tip is away of the rigth angle on those grooves. So all those paremeters are way important to have " pristine " quality level performance levels but when we have an " arcaic " LP technology where the LP manufacturers are so faraway of making " perfect " LPs with no micro surface waves, off centered and the like our effort to set up in precise way each one of those parameters is just impossible. We can try to approach the best way and even that we will away of the " perfection ". Our audio time life is really short and we have to take advantage of our each time listening MUSIC and we can't do it if we want to stay perfect with each LP side. There is so imperfect LP technologies that even in one side LP " things change " in the quality of what we are listening it. On ly in my LP tracks that I use in my full evaluation/tests comparison proccess I made the changes of those parameters according what I know is the best quality performance at each LP track on that evaluation proccess. Each change in VTA/SRA makes a quality change for the better or bad?, yes, always as always happens with the other parameters too. In the other side to make any single parameter change we have to have a reference to compare with and that reference can't be: " I like it that way ". Regards and enjoy the MUSIC NOT DISTORTIONS, R. |
This is why Rega does not allow VTA adjustments even on their best arms. What you lose in rigidity for On The Fly adjustment against what you gain is not worth it. Not to mention the wasted time that you could be listening to the music. Set your VTA on your most favorite record by whatever method that you can and leave it alone. But do check it every 6 months by that method and adjust if needed, parameters do change overtime for various reasons. None of the above approaches mentioned in this thread are wrong or invalid since this is about pure physics. But then again I am getting old and want to enjoy my time listening to music not performing physics experiments :-) |
I do it by ear: When I setup a new cartridge, whatever album I put on first, I also play via Tidal at the same time (or as close as I can) then I sit back and switch inputs and listen to both. I keep adjusting my tonearm until the vinyl sounds as good/better than the Tidal stream. When my VTA/Azimuth/VTF are off, it's quite clear that the Tidal stream sounds better. Once I'm happy with the arm setup, I leave it there permanently, until I switch out for a new cart. Then repeat. |
For me, having a C Through design ruler helps with making quick approximate references. If I notice that my tonearm is level, then I've found that I prefer it raised slightly at the head-shell for a fuller sonic signature. This may cost me a little in retrieving detail but after all, it's vinyl, so I don't expect a lot of detail. I do need a better tonearm however. |
@cleeds You note: "Of course, the overhang will remain constant if you are able to precisely adjust arm height to compensate for various thicknesses of LPs. But if you are adjusting VTA by ear on the fly, what determines to your ear that you've reached the ideal arm height?" I know when I hear it and it is clearly audible, even to the untrained ear. To paraphrase Bill Nelson, it "makes the music magic, makes the strings ring like bells in the night." Cymbals and bells ring with that natural tone you hear at a concert, horns blow your hair back, the right vocal tone sends chills down your spine, you can hear bass strings vibrate against the fingerboard and feel organ pedals compress your guts. Get the arm a bit too high, strings and horns go shrill. Get it a bit too low and you lose definition. Further: "Is it achieving the perfect VTA? Or is it achieving the perfect overhang?" I would suggest that it is probably VTA. I say this because there are several alignment schemes that can be used, and more elaborate protractors like the Feickert allow users to select which one they might prefer. There is no absolute right answer. Get VTA wrong though, and you can immediately hear it. Considering those two points and knowing how sensitive my VTA OTF arms are to changes in height leads me to feel that overhang and VTF are perhaps less critical than VTA and azimuth. This is probably due to the minuscule contact area between the stylus edge and the groove. It has to be in close proximity to angle at which the record was cut to get all the information out. A bit of skew to one side or the other might have a slight effect on image, but can't say about how significant that might actually be. Other experiences seem to support this. A lifetime of playing warped vinyl until I found the Vinyl Flat is one. If I got the VTA right on a track that was essentially flat, everything went awry as soon as I hit the warped area. Very irritating. My second table is a 70s vintage Pioneer with an S arm and fixed VTA. It's reserved for less than pristine vinyl and recordings that can't benefit from better transcription. I put as precise an alignment on it as I could manage without investing more than a few bucks and if I drop a thicker record that was made in the early 60s, one of the dynaflex flimsies or one of the newer 180 gram pressings on it, it sounds awful. Harsh and brash when too thin and muddy and indistinct when too thick. Put on some Who or Floyd pressed in the era it was made and it's up to the task. I've also fiddled around with VTF on the Pioneer to see what there was to hear. I have a very repeatable digital scale that resolves to hundredths of a gram and has a tolerance of + or - 0.02 g, so it's a simple matter for me. The factory recommended 1.8 grams for the Ortofon 2M Red is indistinguishable from 1.7 or 1.9 to my ear. That's about 5.5% of range, and a greater percentage of tolerance than that for either VTA or overhang adjustment. Accordingly, worrying over minute changes in overhang or VTF that could potentially occur from adjusting VTA OTF seems fruitless. Some über-wealthy vinyl geek may set up a laser interferometer to finally resolve all the mathematical particulars, but I've found the solution that works well enough for me. It's easy, fast, reliable and makes my world a happier place because the music sounds so much better. And that's really what this hobby is all about. |
OP: "I have read countless posts where members are spending hours on exacting setup of their VTA with varying levels of tools. Then there is another camp who set by ear. My thoughts/questions on this subject arise from vinyl thickness difference. Surely going from a flimsy flier early 70,s vinyl to a later 180 or even 200gm issue is going to change that painstakingly set VTA considerably. So thoughts rattling round is why go to all that trouble when it IS going to change depending on the vinyl played? To my mind it would appear that one of the arms that includes on the fly VTA adjustment would be the answer. Your opinions or suggestions?" MF has some good comments on this in turntable setup videos you can find on YouTube. In my case, I learned what effect VTA has on sound when setting up my first Benz Glider. I kept lowering and lowering, it kept sounding better and better..... until it didn't. I went back up a little. Better. Went up and down in smaller and smaller increments until I was satisfied. This was with the Graham arm. "Small" increments came down to interpolating within the smallest marks on the Graham adjuster. The width of one of his marking lines, if I remember correctly. Seemed crazy at first, but I kept at it until I was sure. The most time was spent not adjusting, but confirming what was in hindsight pretty obvious from the start. Years later I went through this same process with my Origin Live Conqueror arm and Ruby H. Then again last week with my Koetsu. I can zero in really fast now but its always the same deal, the tweaks between records are really tiny fractions of a turn. Now if you do the math, threads per inch, fractions of a turn, its clear VTA adjustments of much less than a hundredth of an inch are audible. That's why VTA absolutely must be set by ear. Unless, of course, the difference either does not matter to you or you can't hear it. In that case then, why bother? In my case, it takes me nearly no time at all to tweak VTA and write it down. One album side, couple tweaks, max. Write it down. One and done. Even then there are still times when I put one on and it sounds so good I just enjoy it, no tweaks. In that case I just write down whatever VTA was. So I can repeat it. And that's that. Because for me that is the whole point, to enjoy the music. Whether or not someone else can appreciate it, or how much time they spend tweaking, simply is not a factor. |
I used to do it by ear then I got a micro meter on the fly mod for my12" Jelco and well now I wonder how I managed with out. makes it much easier and faster IMO, same results in the end. as for changing for thickness I really can’t tell the difference in that small of a change, with a 12" arm anyway. that’s on a VDH cut tip as well. I'd like to see the math on the stylus angles change vs thickness changes of records be it 180 ect. 9"-10" 12" go. |
Two things you can't cheat with vinyl play. 1) Physics and 2) the Record Pressing Plants. PHYSICS (the obvious one) Raise VTA ....you lower VTF and alter other set up parameters. Lower VTA....you raise VTF and alter other setup parameters. RECORD PROCESSING PLANTS. (not so obvious) There were / are no standards for the vertical angles the records are cut at (the included angle). American plants angles are different from European plants. Each time the cutting stylus is replaced (every 10 hours?) the new one goes in a little different than before. 8^0 ******************** What to do ? ******************** If with one average setting your vinyl rig does not allow you to hear these differences, or it does not bother you too much.... consider yourself BLESSED ...enjoy your records. If however you hear differences even with same thickness records (different included angles) ....and...maybe..... suffer from a little Audiophilia Nervosa...... there are at least four things you can do from my personal experiences over the years. 1) make the necessary adjustments after VTA changes. 2) acquire a preamp with adjustable on the fly "Gain". Lower gain for bright records and vice versa. 3) acquire an amp that allows for on the fly gain changes. 4) acquire a tonearm that was designed with VTA changes in mind and allows you to make these VTA changes, with ease, and not affect any other setup prarameters. FWIW - One tonearm only - exists - that I am aware of that has this capability. ET 2.0, and ET 2.5. They are protected by patent. If there is another tonearm let me know. Cheers Enjoy your records. |
effischer
Also, I respectfully disagree that overhang is changed by changing VTA with arms that feature VTA OTF adjustment. The whole point of VTA OTF is to raise or lower the entire arm assembly with respect to the surface of the vinyl. This includes the arm pivot and the stylus, so that geometric relationship doesn’t change.Clearly, changing VTA changes overhang. That is basic Pythagorean geometry. Of course, the overhang will remain constant if you are able to precisely adjust arm height to compensate for various thicknesses of LPs. But if you are adjusting VTA by ear on the fly, what determines to your ear that you've reached the ideal arm height? Is it achieving the perfect VTA? Or is it achieving the perfect overhang? |
Count me among the VTA OTF & by ear crowd. IMO, it is the single most important adjustment in vinyl playback. Even minor changes are immediately audible. This is also true of azimuth, but azimuth can’t be changed OTF. Changing VTA OTF only takes a moment to do, too. Unless you go directly from an RCA "dynaflex" to a MFSL UHQR; then you need to make a guesstimate so you don’t spend an entire side turning the screw. Also, I respectfully disagree that overhang is changed by changing VTA with arms that feature VTA OTF adjustment. The whole point of VTA OTF is to raise or lower the entire arm assembly with respect to the surface of the vinyl. This includes the arm pivot and the stylus, so that geometric relationship doesn’t change. With arms that require traditional overhang adjustment via a protractor, it is a simple matter to set the VTA to the thickness of the protractor device (or platter surface or whatever), then adjust overhang as necessary. When one readjusts VTA to differing record thicknesses, the entire assembly retains correct overhang precisely because the entire arm is adjusted horizontally to match the vinyl surface. Note that some arms make this a moot point because of how overhang is set with them. Both my current Graham and previous (and sadly deceased) Magnepan employ stylus alignment fixtures to get hyper-precise overhang. Tonearm axis for both is also set with a fixture. The Magnepan required a visual evaluation while the Graham is a fixed point. VTF is a different issue, however. If you change tracking force enough to alter cantilever suspension geometry, then you have changed both overhang and VTA. Since VTF isn’t ordinarily changed once set, this is not all that common a concern. What you do have to remember to do is set VTF before adjusting VTA and overhang. That way, the geometry remains consistent. So with arms requiring protractor-assisted overhang adjustment, adjust VTA for the scale used to set your VTF, readjust VTA to whatever is necessary for the protractor used, set azimuth and finally set your overhang. Then you can alter VTA as desired. An aside on SRA/VTA terminology: I believe the issue is a red herring. SRA may be an acronym for changing the vertical relationship of the stylus to the surface of the record, but VTA is the one used by the vast majority of tonearm manufacturers to describe the adjustment. Hair-splitting the relationship between the stylus rake angle and the cantilever vertical tracking angle is functionally pointless because it is not possible to adjust one without affecting the other. Only the individual user can decide if the extra few seconds of adjustment are worth the effort and expense. For me, adjusting VTA fully reveals why I’ve spent a lifetime investing in my audio system: The ethereal beauty of music. I have demonstrated the feature repeatedly to both audiophiles and non-audiophiles who have all heard the difference clearly. They have also all remarked on how much more natural it sounds in comparison to digital, including hi-rez formats. We each pays our monies and takes our chances for happy listening. It’s all in the ear and wallet of the beholder. |
uberwaltz
I have read countless posts where members are spending hours on exacting setup of their VTA with varying levels of tools ... Surely going from a flimsy flier early 70,s vinyl to a later 180 or even 200gm issue is going to change that painstakingly set VTA considerably ... why go to all that trouble when it IS going to change depending on the vinyl played? ... it would appear that one of the arms that includes on the fly VTA adjustment would be the answer.Although opinions vary, I don't think that the different VTA that results from a thinner or thicker LP is considerable. As for on-the-fly VTA, that is not a perfect solution, because when you change the VTA, you change the overhang, too - however slightly. So I agree with bdp24 : set your VTA for the average of your best sounding LP's, and be done with it. |
I first read about adjusting VTA/SRA for every record, putting a notation on the LP cover for where to set the arm for that record, when Enid Lumley was writing for TAS. I was young at that time (in my 20's, anyway), and I already thought "Life is too short.....". My thought now is to set your VTA for the average of your best sounding LP's, and be done with it. But I'm somewhat old ;-) . |