"I wonder how many of these companies with rediculously priced components will be around next year".
Quite a few I would think. I am not trying to write an apologia for high end manufacturers, but we live in a world where true high end kit may only be sold to a handful of people. So all the development costs, fixed costs in premises, utilities, have te born by a few sales.
That is only the beginning. Next you have marketting, distributors and retailers %, all this has to be born by the poor buyer. No wonder high end kit, be it speakers, amplifiers, whatever, only a tiny percentage of the cost, is in the material content.
I know none of this is new and has been discussed ad nauseam on this and other sites. What may be more interesting, is how every part of the"industry", is adapting. Retailers seem to be lowering fixed costs by abandoning shop fronts, to work at home. Small manufacturers, use word of mouth and shows, to avoid the need for advertising and direct sales, to reduce distributor, retailers cut.
What underlies this thread is the rapidly changing customer base for HiFi ie rapidly declining and how the industry is adapting. Adapt it must, or die. |
You still have to feed the best speakers made with good upstream to get the most out of them. I have an all tube system, and just hooked up a Linn Classik using the same wires to the same speakers and they sound different. Why? If speakers were the be all end all of the system there would be no difference in sound using different amps and preamps. Garbage in equals garbage out. 30K for speakers? Fine...But not my money...No way No how. |
Some audio companies build and market audio products at prices far in excess of their value, and some people buy them at prices I may not agree with or possibly even be able to afford. Both parties are very happy to make the transaction, so why would I care, and why would you? |
"I agree with Tpreaves. Excellent observation. Set up and "the room" are also frequently used at shows to excuse less than excellent sound."
I wonder. Having been to only a few shows, however, some displayed systems that are a few hundred thouhsands dollars worth of equipments, I was always rather underwhelmed. Coming back home to listen to my own system is always a treat after a show. Even speakers that I own or speakers that I am familiar with, from friend's system etc always sound quite a bit worse at show. Certainly there are some good sound at a show but it seems that generally, you'll be lucky to hear 40-50% of what the system is truly capable of.
I wonder which system have anybody heard at show that sound as good or better as a comparable system that you have at home?
|
It's fun to see what somebody comes up with when the design budget constraints don't exist...Buggati my sneakers away! But merely interesting and actually irrelevant to most people. Luckily you can put together a system that satisfies musically for a fraction of the cost of "audio porn", and the real value to me is when I come home after hearing some luxurious machines at maybe Goodwin's or someplace and realize my relatively inexpensive but carefully assembled assortment of mostly used or inexpensive newer stuff is beautiful to behold. Funny...where I live I'm near a few high end places and you cannot buy a turntable phono cable or a tube at any of them. Or any music. Go figure... |
Kclone,
No, I haven't heard the GT-2 but if it's a step up from the GT-1, it probably sounds great.
I checked out a review of them and they do make their own drivers and their cabinets are really braced well: reinforcements everywhere. I'm still thinking of the excursions that small driver was going through to make such a big, full sound. There was a guy there who put his ear next to it to make sure the music was coming from that speaker, twice.
All the best,
Nonoise |
I wonder how many of these companies with rediculously priced components will be around next year. |
I'm so happy to be enough of a prole that I could not tell that much of a difference b/w what I have and what I heard at last year's show to even THINK about paying that kind of money. I want the equipment to do justice to the music- but $30K for speakers??!!! |
Nonoise, have you heard the Atohm GT-2's? Just curious to how they sounded compared to the GT-1s. I think they make their own drivers. |
I agree with Tpreaves. Excellent observation. Set up and "the room" are also frequently used at shows to excuse less than excellent sound.
Regarding all of the $29K speakers. Just wait 18 months. Some will be here for $15-19K. The problem is that the Sony and TAD speakers rarely come on the used market. Most of the others will be here though. I'm waiting to see the Q1 and Q3 at used prices. Those should be relatively good values in a few years, IMO. |
He mentioned that the speakers were still very new-only two weeks old, and still breaking in. Is it just me or does this line seem to come up often in threads about shows? These people know they are going to be showcasing their wares, why wouldn't they bring equipment that is in tip top, ready to hear condition? Sorry but it seems like nothing more than a weak excuse for subpar sound to me. Just my opinion, nothing more. |
Map- I wasn't necessarily implying that the 'latest thing' was always overpriced, but as you said, depreciation sets in fast, particularly when the latest version or model comes out, or when the folks on the knife edge change view and decide that a certain type of component doesn't offer the "best" approach. There are of course, 'cult' items that retain or increase in value, but those are probably the exception. |
THe Athom's are $4000/pair?
Interesting they are French made by a guy formerly with Triangle. They reminded me of my Triangle Titus XS speakers at first glance. Except almost 10X the price of those ~ 15 years later? |
I tend to agree with the feeling that lots of expensive speakers are priced so just because they can. Price doesn't necessarily equate quality.
I came across the Athom GT-1s and thought they were wonderful sounding. A small monitor (stand mounted) in the $3.6K range that I could happily live with if I could afford it. I wouldn't even need a sub. Coplands 'Fanfare For The Common Man' was playing and I couldn't believe the bass, coherence, timing and smoothness of this little gem. They were the entry level of their upper range and they had the top of the line of their lower range (a floorstander) for the same price for comparison. I didn't get a chance to here the lower line speaker and frankly, didn't care to.
They also had the Aphion Ion+ which, I'm sorry to say, although nice sounding, paled in comparison to the Athom to the point that even with the price difference, I'd go for the Athom and worry about the monthly payments later. Granted, it was in a different system but if short term, basic impressions matter any, then it was no contest.
I don't know what you're looking for and what price you're willing to pay but if you can, you should give the Athom GT-1 an audition.
All the best,
Nonoise |
"They did not even care to really listen much to the speakers or equipment, just wanted "the best" they had, something as good (or better) than their neighbor had."
Well, honestly I think just about any salesperson likes customers like this. I know I did years ago working for essentially minimum wage + commissions selling gear at Tech Hifi, Lafayette Radio, and Radio Shack. The most expensive gear offered at any of these still offered value for most. However, there were some clunkers even at the top of the lines that I would always try to steer people away from. Those big top of the line Radio Shack/Realistic Mach horn loaded speakers ($400/pair list I recall) are the ones that come to mind that many might remember. BIC turntables (crappy sound poor build quality and always breaking) were another. |
I truly believe that someone in this hobby that spends "more than they should" likely appreciates the gear more. My long time dealer of 20+ years had these people come into his store all the time, rolling up in a $90k BMW or Mercedes (the new Ford-like junk that is always in the shop), with a total attitude and big bank account. They did not even care to really listen much to the speakers or equipment, just wanted "the best" they had, something as good (or better) than their neighbor had. Even though he would make larger commisions on these customers, he always favored actually dealing/spending time with customer like me that are not rich and still try like hell to buy the best gear they can afford.... and are spending more than they really should by most people standards on their hobby. |
"There has long been a market for very expensive equipment new, by the standards of the day, and this equipment passes down to lesser mortals as the flavor of the month makes those pieces 'obsolete.'
If true, and it well may be, then this essentially says that this expensive gear is overpriced and will not maintain value. USed prices probably support that. Nothing unusual though. Few items, luxury or otherwise, including cars, retain value. I guess if you can truly afford these things, you do not care much about depreciation. Must be nice!
But what about those who stretch and really cannot afford these things? Different story and perhaps more likely not a happy ending? |
I only meant "entry-level" for Magico - Magico would consider them their entry leve (least expensive) speaker.
I think anyone actually calling any audio component "entry level" that cost that much needs their head examined. |
Ricred1 is, at the Brits say, 'spot on.' There has long been a market for very expensive equipment new, by the standards of the day, and this equipment passes down to lesser mortals as the flavor of the month makes those pieces 'obsolete.' Granted, in some or in many cases, the 'mkii' will be better, but sometimes, I'm not sure that is true or not true in all respects for all purposes (e.g. I am thinking here of my purchase many years ago of the ARC SP-10mk ii, which was superceded by a different sounding SP-11). And, unlike the car business, which is very tough to penetrate on a cottage industry level, we do have loads of small manufacturers, inventor-driven companies, that offer value for the dollar. The very raison d'etre of this site is the trade in 'used' hi-end equipment. Thanks for the reminder, Ricred1.
(And if you want to see real depreciation, look at modern high end cars which, with few exceptions, plummet in value the moment they drive off the lot). |
"If you like them and are happy to pay $25k for a pair of "entry level" monitors, great"
Well, they are no doubt expensive and well built, but not sure I'd consider them "entry level" just because they are relatively small, if not light. They do what they do (not everything) pretty well and monitors including these are a good size for many urban dwellers with limited space.
I wonder, at the Newport show, were there any vendors with lower cost gear running any demos comparing their stuff to the bigger boys? That would make things a lot more interesting to me. |
Agree with Polk432...
Too many speakers (and other gear), that is hidiously over-priced. Magico is one that comes to mind... unecessarily over-built and over-priced as a result. All the "guts" of that speaker IS NOT NEEDED to create good sound.
If you like them and are happy to pay $25k for a pair of "entry level" monitors, great. But for us "normal" people that have household incomes of $75-$125k, spending that much on a single component is just plain foolish.
There are excellent monitor speakers out there for $3k to $6k new and even less on Audiogon. If you think that Magico monitors sound $20k better, you may want to check you priorites - no matter how much money you have to piss away. I have heard Magico and was not impressed nearly enough to warrant those kind of prices. |
ALso, when I upgrade, I try to do it one reasonably small step at a time. That provides a better chance of getting it right and retaining value without overspending.
Once you dump megabucks into that one silver bullet upgrade, cost being no object, it is hard to go back, finances permitting.
From fast food, to health care, colleges, movies, to "Real Housewives" to high end audio, I suppose bigger, better, more is often the American way. Its a big reason why we are where we are these days. Too much of the wrong kinds of progress that often benefits few and might actually harm many. Hopefully we have learned something and are largely past this at this point with the homes we live in. Why not audio as well?
Is this heresy to express on a high end audio site? I hope not. "High End" can be a relative and not absolute thing I hope. |
I have that kind of money, and will never be foolish to pay that much. Nobody benefits but the sellers of these products. I've met many salesmen that could not afford to buy the exact items they sell, and most of them agree, the prices are not worth what you get. OTOH if you have the money to burn, go ahead. |
"Many vendors were focusing on the $25-32k range"
Can a show targeting consumers in Newport Beach/Orange COunty California possibly be regarded as indicative of the world in general? No doubt this show would be targeting the high concentration of ultra rich in that area accordingly.
Obviously, any viable product in that price range should perform exceptionally. Personal taste becomes the main discriminating factor. Also room size. You need bigger more expensive speakers and amps to listen loud and lifelike in larger rooms, but for most, a smaller less expensive system can do exceptionally well, in many cases as good or better than larger or more expensive gear.
OF course, if one is continually looking to do better, the tendency will be to spend more over time I suspect. But I often wonder if a compare between what one has after years and many more $$$S on the constant upgrade path could be made with what they had a few years back, how much better would the latest and greatest really be?
What I find works for me is to listen to as much live music and the best reference systems as I can. Then do what is needed to my gear to attempt to match. Once I get to the point where what I hear at home does not leave me wanting further, based on the reference sounds I have heard, I mostly stop or certainly slow down and think a lot before changing anything. |
I also found the Rockport Avior with top end BAT gear very enjoyable (I spent time there on two seperate days and was very impressed). I also thought the new (smaller) TAD floorstand speakers (called Evolution Ones?) that were set up on Friday to be excellent (they were about $27k). The big TAD speakers I thought were "Best of Show" but a lot of that may have been due to the quality of the music the designer brought with him. I was impressed with everything he played last year and he may have even topped himself this year - extremely well done and he was very approachable and amenable to playing music attendees brought with them. The new small Sony AR-2s I thought also sounded good even in the cavernous room they were set up in. I also spent time listening to the Wilson Sasha, the KEF Blade and the new Magico speaker (Q3?) which was paired with ultra high end Solution electronics and top of the line Synergistic Research cabling. All in all, it was an excellent show.
I don't know if $29k is the new $10k, but there are an awful lot of speakers in that price range (besides some of the above, there are also the Audio Physics Aventera, the Tidal Piano, Aearial 20T V2, Sony AR1, Marten Byrd, and Focal (Scala Utopia?) among others. If you have that type of budget, you could go crazy trying to figure out which is best for you. |
I liked the Venture speakers very much- probably best of show for me. They were also amongst the largest speakers at the show-in the largest room. Not sure which model they were, but their top of the line speaker, and over 100K.
I was very intrigued to see the Rockports-my first experience with them. I agree that the dealer was very professional, and a nice guy too. He mentioned that the speakers were still very new-only two weeks old, and still breaking in.
Also mentioned that they sounded much better by Saturday, compared to the day before. While they had a beautiful mid-range, they seemed somewhat reserved or held back. Maybe they needed more break-in, along with the associated gear. I will need to hear them again to make any judgement. |
I could write a *very* long post on this, but for now I won't. As with last year, once again this year I found a general rule that above about $12k, speakers (and amps) became less musically convincing the more expensive they are. Aside from knowing what my Zu Definition 4 sound like, the most convincing speakers were the single-driver Audience, the Lindemann standmount, Nola, Vivid, and the one 1%-er speaker I heard that passes my gate, the Magico Q3 (which I thought was much better than the S5, to the point of sounding like it came from a different -- and better -- designer). The KEF Blade has potential, but it was insane to mate them to Chord amplification -- a sure way to strip them of tone.
There were many musically acceptable imitative speakers still short of worth buying at all prices. Then, too, many built for ego rather than sound. If I never hear another Focal, Wilson, Scaena, McIntosh or Vandersteen speaker (among other offenders), I'll be better off having been spared.
Phil |
any comments on the speakers mentioned? Other consideration for 'Best of Show'? It was a great show, like to hear from others...even though the price of admission now for gear is geting a bit steep... |
I didn't attend the show, but because of my recent experience looking for speakers, I agree that the entry level seems to be right below 30K. I sold my Sophia 3s and found a used pair of Sasha's. Unfortunately, as good as I thought Sophia 3s were, I submit Sasha's are the first really high-end speaker that I've ever owned and I've had Sophia 2s, 3s, Audio Physic Virgo 3s, Devore, Artemis, Mirage M1, and several more. I was just telling my wife it's sad that everything cost as much as it does. Sasha's are the first speaker I ever owned that sounds natural to me, especially with good recordings.
Rdavwhitaker
I couldn't disagree with you more! You said,"dumb enough, to buy 29K "entry level" speakers and 40k amplifiers will be left adrift." Some people have the money and 29k speakers and 40K amplifiers are nothing to them. Me I'm not rich, retired after 28 years in the Air Force and work everyday. I've been enjoying this hobby for 30 years. I've never bought new, usually purchased demo's and have slowly traded up over many years. I submit most audiophiles sacrifice other things to enjoy their hobby. I for one appreciate those who are rich enough to afford new expensive gear because it keeps the high-end going and all of us benefit. |
Rdavwhitaker knows about the world and the economy,common sense and not being foolish to be sucked in just because something has a high price tag on it. If companies could build items half as good as they can lie and market, maybe they could honestly make a good living. Magico? As much as they cost, what is so amazing about them? Try selling them on the used market. Aston Marin, CAT, MBL, Bently, Rolls. They should do what you are paying for. I just don't see anything amazing about it. It's the LEAST they can and should do. |
Or, the companies focus their efforts on the upper price ranges, where they can make more money, and offer the true 'entry level' line as 'trickle down' technology, perhaps sharing design attributes, but manufactured in places with cheap labor, e.g. the Acme Line by Brand X.
I think there will always be more modestly priced stuff available at a more grass roots level that is still serious enough to listen to and not mass market consumer product disposable junk. But, we will tell our grandkids that back in our day, you could buy a first rate preamp or loudspeaker for a few thousand dollars, and they will feign interest while watching the latest holo-video on their virtual screen retina implants. |
This is one manifestation of a problem that is going to become more acute over the next several years for a growing range of products, including cars, televisions and appliances. As the middle class disappears in the United States, and countries with emerging wealth see it concentrated in a relatively small number of hands, high-end manufacturers find themselves trying to chase bigger and bigger sales to a smaller audience - those able to buy five and six figure pieces of equipment, with the abundance of money, interest in the hobby, and lack of common sense that all seem to be prerequisites to purchasing most of these new ultra-high end products.
I used to shake my head in wonder when Stereophile would refer to a three or thousand dollar component as "affordable." Recently, I read a piece in a British hi Fi magazine that called a five-figure pair of speakers "entry level" and about fell out of my chair laughing.
My advice: Buy good new and used equipment from Audio Research, Manley, Conrad-Johnson, VTL, Magnepan, Totem, Spendor, and the other "old guard" high-end companies while ye may- if these trends continue, those companies will soon be gone, and those of us who can't afford, or aren't dumb enough, to buy 29k "entry level" speakers and 40k amplifiers will be left adrift. |
