This is for Georgehifi especially but others can chime in.
I am buying Dynaudio C-1 Platinums and would like an ideal amp. Which would you choose? I prefer solid state. Separates or integrated. If you could recommend a few optimum choices that would be great. Based on my short couple years on here you strike me as very knowledgable on the subject. My dealer wants me on Pass Labs. Incidentally right now I have the Devialet 400 and I’m pretty sure you are not a fan of this type of amp. Any of your wisdom is appreciated. Thanks, Mike
I think it's tawdry to have a Georgehifi specific thread. It's unfair to the rest of us, although it does allow me to use the word "tawdry." Also, are "doctors" Dave and Troy aware of the John Gorka song, "I'm From New Jersey?" A great song…trust me...
I also have a pair of the C1 P's, Dealer used Pass mono blocks to showcase them which were music to my ears. I use D-class AVM 3,2 mono,s and kt88 audiospace mono,s both of which drive them well. I do prefer the AVM'S with these speakers but you could use tubes as well. Dennis
Dsreamer, it is not that Pass Labs isn't great gear it is but perhaps there are even better products out there at the same price:
Musicfx tested a T+A 2500R integrated vs the Pass integrated at the same price and found the T+A was better to his ears.
Check out his thread he was looking at new electronics to drive his Wilson Sashas and was comparing a T+A integrated which he found out by reading our posts, to a Pass Labs and a Prima Luna.
I have heard the Pass stuff and it is very good, what makes the T+A to our ears even better is the superior rhythmic quality and greater transparency of the T+A gear while still retaining a somewhat warm quality in the midrange which the Pass also does.
So to recap, will a pair of Pass Labs mono blocks sound good of course they will, the issue isn't what just sounds good, is that are x, y or z the best product for the money as well as for the sound quality, can I get better sound for the same money?
The T+A gear walks the fine line between detail and resolution and musicality, it is very fast, clean and dynamic while just being engaging to listen to this is a very hard balancing act and one of the reasons we endorse the brand.
Again we are not saying T+A is the best gear out there, it is among the very best gear you can buy and when compared to the most expensive gear the T+A usually comes close at 1/2 to 1/3rd the price which is why we recommend it.
Compared to Hegel, Luxman, Naim, Electrocompaniet,and Norma, Anthem, and a few others we have sold or continue to sell, the T+A is clearly better and in a higher class of gear then these other fine brands.
How do we know look at our video and see for yourself we have tested and continue to test many brands on the market.
How can anyone make a serious judgement about the sound when there are more than one pair of speakers in the room? as all the other unused speaker cones are happily bouncing back and forward in sympathy with the ones being used, you may as well have drummy walls, floor and ceiling.
Yes you can easily hear the difference's in sound when you switch one component for another wether you are switching amps, or dacs, or cables the differences in the sound is easily discernable.
We would prefer to have only one pair of speakers in the room, vs the other speakers that are in storage, but if you want to be able to offer a good choice of speakers then they have to go somewhere.
Yes having other speakers in the room does negatively affect the sound somewhat, but when a client auditions a set in our show room they will understand these interactions and know that the speakers will sound even better in their own rooms.
Yes having other speakers in the room does negatively affect the sound somewhat, but when a client auditions a set in our show room they will understand these interactions and know that the speakers will sound even better in their own rooms
Dave, you don't need more naysayers, but I've found the problem with multiple speakers in a room goes beyond the interaction they have with one another. Invariably the *placement* of the speakers are severely compromised. If there is any conciliation in how you have your showroom setup (and I haven't seen it), I know you're not the only dealer that has many speakers in the same room.
Given the price point of the gear you are demonstrating, wouldn't it behoove you (and all other dealers please take note of this question) to have a *dedicated sound room* with no equipment in it at all, and then populate the room with whatever equipment is being demoed at that particular moment? Granted, this is a major inconvenience to cart equipment to and from, in and out, etc., however, this would be for customers (potential customers) who are looking to drop say 50K+.
"...have a *dedicated sound room* with no equipment in it at all, and then populate the room with whatever equipment is being demoed "
Human brain/ear has an extremely short term memory, like only a few seconds, so while this sort of arrangement may seem plausible it really defeats the purpose of comparing gear, particularly when switching only one piece at a time.
"...have a *dedicated sound room* with no equipment in it at all, and then populate the room with whatever equipment is being demoed "
Human brain/ear has an extremely short term memory, like only a few seconds, so while this sort of arrangement may seem plausible it really defeats the purpose of comparing gear, particularly when switching only one piece at a time.
@kalali
Excellent point, and I have no disagreement about the short term memory. However, doesn't my suggestion (empty room populated as needed) still beat the alternative (cluttered room) from the standpoint of equipment evaluation?
Grgr4blu and usual, your true nature comes through.
There are not always great reviews which actually compare one less expensive piece to something which is two to three times the price and the reviewer has the honesty to say that the less expensive product is as good or sometimes better than the much more expensive one.
In the case of the Positive Feedback review, reviewer compared the $21k T+A integrated to the $45k D'agstino Momentum, and came away with the conclusion that the T+A was as good for half the money.
Plese read the review for yourself. Oh I see you own the D'agastino gear, and thereby are threatened by the truth, that the D'agastino gear is way over inflated for the sound quality compared to T+A.
As per the Devialet there are many people who like their sound and many who don't remember the Devialet is a Class D amplifier we had the Devialet gear and tried to sell it unsucessfully as it always sounded super impressive but was never musically involving.
And again as per the Persona's "killing the Kharmas, we will be happy to show you a picture of the $120k Kharma packed up and leaving.
For $120k a set of speakers has to be playing on a different league than a $35k set, and in this case the Kharmas weren't.
Again Gpr4blu, go ask Musicfx, who purchased a T+A after comparing it to a Pass Labs product, by the way we didn't sell him the T+A amp either!
Again why should this be a surprise, T+A is the largest electronics manfactuer in Germany with a full time staff of 14 engineers, how big do you think Pass Labs is or D'agastino.
Most of these companies have one to two engineers tops and are most likely have two to 10 employees.
This is not the latest hot brand gearing up in some Silicon Valley garage. T+A was launched in 1978 and has been a market leader in Europe ever since. Located in the town of Herford in North Rhine, Westphalia (a center for many high tech enterprises), T+A has been breaking new ground over the last thirty years with such diverse audio products as dynamic speakers, electrostatic speakers, turntables, digital to analog converters, streaming products and of course preamplifier, amplifier, and integrated amplifier designs.
Many folks are probably not aware that back in the day, T+A was a key player in active speaker research and development in parallel with Meridian, in digital audio research and development in parallel with Wadia, and with electrostatic speaker design with support from Sennheiser. Several premier companies like Soulution, Spectral and CH Precision are receiving accolades for their wide bandwidth amplifier designs, but T+A has also applied wide bandwidth technologies to their latest line of flagship components. The T+A legacy has a strong foundation.
Siegfried Amft is the original founder of the company and still leads the way as President with a strong vision and commitment to offer the very best in high end. Lothar Wiemann is the head of Research and Development and is a key contributor to many of the innovative designs implemented throughout all the product lines. Like the company name, I think you will be hearing about these two gentleman more and more often in the near future, and for good reason.
Together with a staff of over hundred employees, including fourteen graduate level hardware and software engineers, T+A continues to roll out an outstanding combination of both market and technology driven product portfolios. Make no mistake about it though, T+A is all about engineering, innovation and quality. The musicality and emotional connection that these products provide are the additional icing on the cake.
Performance:
Paired with the Strads, the PA 3100 HV ($21,500) quickly reminded me of my two favorite integrated amplifiers, the D'Agostino Momentum ($45,000) and Vitus RI-100 ($13,200). Yes, I realize from a price perspective that this is not an apples to apples comparison. On the other hand, we all know that price is not always an indicator of sound quality and system compatibility. Of the dozen or so analog integrated amplifiers that I have reviewed over the last four years, these three are clearly the premier performers based on my ears and biases.
For me, the T+A PA 3100 HV integrated amplifier and the PDP 3000 HV SACD/CD/DAC are two of the top players in their respective component categories. Depending on compatibility and specific system needs, maybe even the gold standard for now. Of course, I have not heard everything and there seems to be something new announced every day—especially in the digital world. But, compared to some of the very best, there is no question that they perform at an elite level and will provide enjoyment for years to come. When you take into account the engineering, technology and quality that is implemented throughout, these two are an absolute must audition. Highly recommended!
And as you usually do by casting aspiritions and doubts about my character, just remember VAC, BAT, Nordost, REL and many other products that went into SBS and Innovative Audio were discovered and championed by yours truly.
Wow. My post criticizing Audiotroy for taking over and dominating threads for salesmanship here was removed. I don't know why as there were no curse words nor were there insults. But Audiotroy must have seen it before it was removed which caused him to launch into further bloviation. Does anyone actually read his posts? He reminds me of Bo. By the way, where is Bo? Compared to Audiotroy, Bo is actually quite tolerable.
My post criticizing Audiotroy for taking over and dominating threads for salesmanship here was removed. I don’t know why as there were no curse words nor were there insults.
He would have reported your post. And he maybe a small paid advertiser here somewhere in Agon maze of pages which "can" on other forums I notice influence the moderators.
My post criticizing Audiotroy for taking over and dominating threads for salesmanship here was removed. I don’t know why as there were no curse words nor were there insults.
I had the same experience in this particular thread. My posts were subsequently restored after I checked in with Audiogon support. In my case there was no definitive explanation, but it was not because of expletives. The most likely culprit was programmatic spam detection. George's explanation is also a possibility, but in that case Audiogon support should be able to let you know.
No Jmcgrogan, we are not the same person as Bo. Nor do we behave the same way.
Bo basically states Monitor Audio Platinum speakers are the only "tru fi" whatever that is, that can sound realistic.
In many of our posts, we talk about not just our speakers but others that we don't sell that we also respect and also recommend.
Also I have no idea on Bo's experience while I have over 30 years of field experience.
As per "salesmanship" and not liking it, maybe instead of refuting someone who has had the Devialets along with a ton of other good brands and saying maybe the guy is right and I should look at brand x, I hear incredulous arguments, like from guys like Khost who believes that measurements in hifi are valid ways of weeding out and evauating product.
Perhaps it is you guys who are the real problem, I have stated time and time again, we are brand agnostic, if we find something better we move into that, yet I see the same arguements made to diparage anything that we recommend.
As per Gr4blu he has stated time and time again about not liking me, for that reason, he should not be allowed on these forums as he is not adding anything to the discussion, you should not be allowed to attack another member, it is small minded and again it is diverting the discussion which should be about which amp, speakers or whatever that can assit the OP.
As per testing look at the videos of our shop or our facebook page, we have tested and continue to test most of the hot gear on the market.
For example the Mytek Brooklyn is now one of the hotest dacs on the market guess what we have one.
Usually if a product line is leading the pack we get it.
When I said we tested Devialet on numerous high end referernce speakers and we tested many other brands and have agreed with two reviews which stated just how good the T+A gear is, we wouldn't have to quote long passages of those same reviews to prove a point.
How about trying this one on, Hey that T+A gear may be great, look at these reviews, maybe I will contact the importer and find out where I can hear these products for myself so I can make up my own mind and by the way that doesn't necessarily mean we are the closest dealer or are even in the same state or country as the OP.
Take Musicfx, he tested a T+A vs a Pass Labs integrated, perhaps that might tell you something, again, we are not saying Pass or Sim or Ayre are not great products, we are saying that T+A may be even better and is worthy of an audition and the company based on its sheer size and resources may make a product which is really special.
We don't force buyers to call us, or to visit our shop, the people who actually come in are usually very impressed by our sound and the range of gear which we offer.
Audiotroy: I do not personally dislike you and I've never met Troy who is apparently your alter ego. But your inability to curb your salesmanship is bothersome as are your long winded defenses to why you cannot or will not stop. Your belief is that you are not selling but doing a service to posters by enlightening them about the brands you carry. As I've said too many times--if every dealer behaved like you, there would be no Audiogon as everybody who is not in the industry would leave for other sites and the dealers would be arguing about who carries the best gear for a particular application. But then again, I know of no other dealer, manufacturer or industry rep who does what you do here. Rather, they generally enlighten the conversation with information and DO NOT talk about what they sell or compare what they sell to anything else unless requested.
When time permits, I'm planning on a road trip from several states away to visit Johnny Ruttan's Audio Connection. This based on his always helpful and constructive posts here, and a subsequent telephone conversation. My route will include a wide berth around Audio Doctor, for reasons that I'm sure you can infer.
While discussing the merits of various after market shock absorbers on a Triumph motorcycle website, an owner of a parts business announced an opportunity to beat an upcoming price increase on shocks his company sold by urging interested bikers to "get 'em while you can." Not cool, and I pointed that out. His fumbling reply was that he buys ad space on the site so he could say whatever he wanted in the forums, and I pointed out that the arrogance displayed by his response should mean that buyers may want to take their bike bucks elsewhere. Others agreed. In the comments from the Audio Doctor's Troy, a similarly inappropriate hard sell that I feel simply doesn't belong in a forum should in all likelihood hurt sales for them, and makes me wonder, does Dave know about this? I can only suggest Dave get a new partner as Troy isn't doing the business any favors, and based on Troy's posts I wouldn't buy anything from these guys. Ever.
gpgr4blu638 posts01-15-2018 1:06pmgpgr4blu"...your inability to curb your salesmanship is bothersome as are your long winded defenses to why you cannot or will not stop. Your belief is that you are not selling but doing a service to posters..."
It is the established protocol clearly defined under the applicable terms that determine the use of this forum that dealers of audio equipment as well as manufacturers of audio equipment are permitted to post in this forum. If you have a sincere complaint regarding any single poster here or a group of posters in this forum you should bring your considered objections to the direct attention of this group’s experienced moderators who will then assuredly act accordingly unless you are yourself one of the moderators of this group it is not your roll to limit discussions herein you are welcome.
Just like everything else all of us have an opinion. I just don’t understand why Audio Doctor’s postings bothers people so much. We know he’s a dealer and as such will promote what he sells. Don’t "we" have enough sense to take what he says with a "big grain of salt"? I take every recommendation with a grain of salt and hope people take what I say with a grain of salt. Dealer or not, we have our own biases! I’ve talked to him several times and have challenged him on several recommendations, because in my system I had already compared the cables in question and preferred the product he said was so inferior. He has an opinion just like anyone else. I would love to visit his store and hear some of the components he talks about and decide their merits with my own ears. Listening to different components is how I learn and grow in this hobby.
Hi Clearthink: If only the moderators would act accordingly. As long as they permit Audiotroy to sell, I will continue to exercise my right to comment.
No Grgr4blu there really is a Troy. As per other dealers who knows how many apparent posters are mysterously posting certain threads that favor certain dealers? Where then that dealer can chime in with their persepective?
As per selling, there would be none of this is instead guys like Grgr4blu start with some of the replies that you come out with.
Most of our posts are like hey why don’t you check out X, Y or Z at these products might really work for you.
As per one famous Grgr4blu tiff, a guy with a tiny 10 *17 room was inquiring about Wilson Alexias, which will not work for that size room, we suggested he find a set of Persona 9H which will work in a tiny room due to active room correction or a set of Legacy Aeris same reason, and boom a huge back and forth.
Hey Grgr4blu why don’t you get off your high horse and let the OP find out for themselves what they will and won’t like, and that may consider some of the products we represent or not or mention or not.
As per twoleftears or Wolf Garcia, not coming in for a visit, who are you hurting? Not us, we got plenty of people who like us, see the recent addition to one of the threads expousing our approach. ronrags112 posts01-14-2018 7:37pmI had a very unusual but wonderful experience visiting Dave, the Audio Doctor. Unusual by means of his home and business in a Victorian home in Jersey City. I arrived 15 minutes early for an 11am appointment on Sunday and was greeted by his down to earth and friendly wife. We spoke for about 15 minutes discussing this old Victorian home while Dave was getting prepared for my arrival. She offered something to drink and I asked for a cup of tea in which she complied graciously. The house was set up with a large variety of top named components in different rooms ranging in prices from affordable to very expensive. I didn’t feel I was in a showroom but in a friend’s living room which added to the experience.
Next up, Dave himself, one of the nicest and enthusiastic person you want to meet. For the next 2 hours we spoke about audio equipment and his knowledge was quite impressive. He worked at some of the high-end audio shops in Manhattan I use to visit with my brother back in the 70s and 80s. I felt as if i was speaking to an old friend. I guess we both got caught up in our interest and enthusiasm of audio equipment that I almost forgot why I was there in the first place. Not once during this time period did Dave try to sell anything. The next hour we discussed music servers and Dacs and did some listening.
But what blew me away, Dave offered to bring some components we discussed to my home to audition. Wow, talk about great service! After over 40 years of auditioning audio equipment at many showrooms in the New York area, I cannot recommend a better experience and the hospitality of the Audio Doctor. Report thisjayctoy1,542 posts01-14-2018 10:13pmI find audiotroy very knowledgeable and informative, in this site. I learned when I read his post.Thank you for sharing your knowledge for free...
Twoleftears you are basing your opinion of us based on your opinions of a few people here who have never been to our store, or heard our products setup in our shop?
Or the fact that we are trying to recommend some of the best products in audio and some of these products are less expensive than many other ones. Good luck to you sir.
If I were you I would have had the opposite opinion, I would have wanted to see if the dealership was all that it was been cracked up to be and would have wanted to see what the experience was like and I might have called and had a conversation with the Audio Doctor guys and see for myself.
Too bad and good luck to you on your roadtrip, John is a very good dealer and he does know his stuff, our two shops are totally different and our product selection is way different.
I think we recommended Isoacoustics to you they made a rather large difference in your system for a low cost didn’t they?
We test a lot of diffrent products al the time, and yes cables Richard cables are very system dependent on a dark sounding system the AQ might work out better, the Wireworld Platiniums in our tests had a wider soundstage and were overall better in definition and were a bit smoother.
However it is the total system voicing that will matter most and all pieces in the chain must work together.
You should try in Isotek Syncro going to your power conditioner made a rather large improvement on the systems we have tested it on.
Richard is a model of decorum, he has talked with us, and knows we have the client’s best needs at heart.
Notice we are not yelling motorcyle parts clearance, and some of the people who have read these posts have purchased these products not from us based on being on another part of the world or the country.
How can anyone make a serious judgement about the sound when there are more than one pair of speakers in the room?
+1
Its easy to show that unused speakers in a room are absorbing energy from the speaker being played.
The **partial** solution is to short out the speaker terminals of the unused speakers, so their drivers can't move. This really helps.
If this is not done, then the audition thus becomes a hoax. If it is done, it simply becomes a poor audition- the speakers really should not be in the room with the active speakers.
As per having more than one speaker in a room, 99.9 percent of dealers unfortunately have to do this as loudspeakers do take up space.
We only have one set of speakers on deck so to speak so you can acutally get a pretty good idea of what they sound like.
Yes in an ideal world you would have only one set of speakers
In our reference room we have one set of speakers on each wall so we have two active speakers on display,
As per the results of the demo, you can still easily hear the difference between the different makes and models.
Just like if I demoed an OTL amp vs another type of amp using decent but not great cables would be demo be all of a sudden not be valid and therefore by a hoax?
Sure if we used even better cables the system should point out even greater amounts of information, but two different amps should sound noticably different don’t you think?
A dealer can generate business simply by invading a free forum with self promotion…as well meaning as a dealer claims to be, that still is exactly what's happening, and when there's even a hint of a commercial connection to any product touted by a dealer in an otherwise open forum, I consider that to be an unethical and somewhat slimy commercial activity designed to promote a business. Period. Others may disagree…and I don't need to "report it to the moderators" as I can state my case just fine on my own.
In our reference room we have one set of speakers on each wall so we have two active speakers on display,
It does not matter where the unused speakers are in the room, they are affecting the sound! If the speaker connections are shorted, they will have less effect.
Just try it instead of arguing about it.
Just like if I demoed an OTL amp vs another type of amp using decent but
not great cables would be demo be all of a sudden not be valid and
therefore by a hoax?
[sic]
Maybe, but this analogy does not hold up. Amps don't absorb energy from each other by being in the room.
Ralph we know about that trick, what you said is that having multiple speakers in the room completely invalidates the results, when they don't.
Wolf sorry but what you feel is unethical is done all the time on these forums and others many others/
If you think that their aren't shills or people who are directly affiliated with dealers or manufacturers who hide behind their screen names and post away, you need to wake up.
As per invalidating anything, when we tell the story of what products we tested brand x against and brand x beat brand y in these ways, many people who read these posts find that not as gospel but as a way of perhaps finding out about a new brand or a new product that they didn't know about or where not considering and find these discussions helpful.
We usually have pictures which back up the products we have been testing at the time, such as the $120k pair of Kharams, we passed on.
When I mentioned that Musicfx who did not purchase anything from us, found out about the brand we were recomending and sought out a dealer on his coast, he is in CA, and lo and behold found out the product we were recommending beat the Pass and beat the Prima Luna and made his Wilson Sashas sound fantastic, do you think he was happy to be reading our posts? Did we gain anything? The answer is no.
We have talked with many nice people all over the country and all over the world and most of these people have not purchased anything from us.
If we have it your way many new products would not be tried in peoples systems or even found out about in the first place, as the buyers can't always find a way of demoing a particular brand.
Do you think we know everything, we like you guys read the magazines, scour the forums and if a new product or brand makes sense we bring it in and test it vs our display inventory, when it is better we bring it in and sell off the older inventory.
Wolf what you read about and choose to do business with and make your opinions is up to you, if you read the posts about people who follow us and who have been to our shop, most people are blown away by the sound we can produce and the wide range of products we display.
@audiotroy I've experienced more than my share of overbearing, overly pushy, opinionated, hard sell hi-fi salespeople in the course of several decades of this hobby--our little world seems to abound in them, and I certainly wouldn't go out of my way to experience any more. My comment was intended in the same spirit as a few others here, that is, that there are different ways a dealer can post on here, and some will be productive and others counter-productive. In making decisions as to whom to visit and forming opinions as to what to audition one goes on the basis of available data. Auditioning new equipment in a dealer showroom (even if it is a private house) is never really what I would call a relaxing experience, and one doesn't need the salesperson tipping the scales further, whether it be just by hovering or something worse.
The **partial** solution is to short out the speaker terminals of the unused speakers, so their drivers can't move. This really helps.
This is correct Ralph, and does work to a degree, and only if the bass unit is not cap coupled. But I was waiting for the light to come on from Audiotroy to tell us he does this, which never happened. So his knowledge of this and having multiple speakers in the room to demo to the detriment of the sound is limited.
George a demo in a shop is just that, our shop does not use a switch board, all gear is in power conditioners and the rooms sound good and yes we know about the shorting out trick that is very old audio news. We never claim that you are going to get 100% out of a speaker on demo at our shop, we tell our clients that the speakers will sound better in their homes.
Wolf as per pushy you are totally wrong, we are not pushy on the contrary look at people who have been to the shop and worked with us.
As per pushy, you may mistake enthusiasim for pushiness, and no sales guy no matter who good they are can make you want to purchase anything, if you came to the shop and we were demoing a particular product and you didn’t like it, after maybe changing cables or other things and we then switched to something else is how we generally work.
A few weeks ago, a forum poster came to our shop and listened to two systems both didn’t sound right and we argeed with them. Didn’t try to ram down our opinion as fact, turned out a number of things led the systems to sound bad from a new digital cable, a new dac, furniture was moved and lastly found out yestereday someone turned on the preamps’s loudness and cranked up the bass, as this particular preamp has a bybass and room correction eq functions. Now that one reference system is starting to make magic again.
We don’t demand that if you don’t like a particular product that you are wrong or don’t know what sounds good. Funny thing, that exact same thing happened to me when I went to a store many years ago CSA audio in Monclair Dale the owner said I was totally wrong, and I didn’t know what sounded good.
Looking at audio equipment can be a painful experience, sort of like looking at new (or used cars) or a trip to the dentist. I spent 4.5 hours at Audio Doctor in New Jersey. It was a great experience. Dave left a meeting early to see me. He knew that I was not looking at his very high end stuff, but he spent the whole day with me. No pressure, changing speakers many times and going back to a couple of them repeatedly. I have it narrowed down to two speakers, Vivid 1.5 or Janszen Valentia with air motion. Leaning toward the Vivids (pending wife approval). The shop is full of lots of incredible audioequipment at all price ranges. Clearly this is a business that is run out of appreciation of sound rather than maximizing profits.I am hesitant to go to small intimate shops like this out of concerns or pressure. This was just the opposite. Highly recommended.crwindy
Last but not least, Dave and his wife prepared a wonderful dinner for me while I was speaker-auditioning- the tastiest Mexican Tacos I have ever had! I spent a total of 4 hours at the store, and Dave even gave me a lift back to the PATH train station (I live in NYC)... so without a doubt, I would rate the customer service at this place as the best I have ever seen in my years of visiting audio stores on both coasts.
So for the NY/NJ area audiophile crowd, Audio Doctor merits an in-person visit and comes HIGHLY RECOMMENDED!!!ph2
At this point in my audio journey I was still trying to figure out what sounds were pleasing to me. I was very much in an information gathering mode. Even though my budget was small, at no point did I feel that I was being rushed. Dave listened to what my needs were and made appropriate recommendations and imparted a ton of information to me which was invaluable in my audio search.
He was very hospitable and offered to make me tea a few times. The showroom is very comfortable. And the selection/variety of gear is second to none.
Does’t seem that these guys thought we were pushy, how many stores give you four hour demos?
Wolf you are invited and more then welcome to see if we live up to the hype of not and you can see for yourself if we are pushy in person.
We sell alot of brands that are really excellent that are not seen in many stores,if you had heard some of them you might realize that some of these products may be better than a lot of the well advertised brands that many people on these forums talk about.
Gdhal what is fact vs opinion? Everything in life is pretty much an opinion when it comes to subjective products.
Is a bottle of $80 Scotch better than a $20 one? It depends on your taste buds and knowlege about Scotch.
As per the two reviews did any of you guys actually read them?
We had nothing to do with either of these reviews, we don't know Allan Taffel and I think Roger Kano, from Postive Feedback wrote the other review, and we don't know him either.
I mean common when the Postive Feedback guy states that the $21k T+A amp is in the same class as a $45k D'agastino and you are in the market and can afford such a product would you:
A: Pay twice as much for a D'agastino Momentum Integrated and just trust that because it is a D'agastio it has to be better and be done with it
or:
B: Try to figure out where I could listen to the T+A piece and see if it really sounds as good or possibly better for half the price?
As per Gpgr4blu's past comments on seeing other products getting similar screeming value reviews, ie a much less expensive product doing battle with one that is 2-3 times its price, I can't really remember seeing too many of those.
Usually you get what you pay for.
Musifx read our posts went to his dealer and came to the same conclusion and now is happily in the same camp, and he owns a T+A 2500r integrated, the problem is with all the negativity you guys engender very few people want to chime in and state their experiences.
You can search up his forum posts and see for yourself.
Per Mr. Mcgrogan, yes who doesn't like a little T+A?
You will also notice we have never said it is the best, we have said many times that is among the best, YMMV, and is generally priced 1/2 to 1/3rd the price of the best gear.
Ralph we know about that trick, what you said is that having multiple
speakers in the room completely invalidates the results, when they
don't.
Actually it does. The problem is that all the cabinets act as bass traps, whether their respective woofers are shorted or not.
This is correct Ralph, and does work to a degree, and only if the bass unit is not cap coupled.
Actually it works whether there is a cap or not. But only to a degree, as you say.
But I was waiting for the light to come on from Audiotroy to tell us he does this, which never happened. So his knowledge of this and having multiple speakers in the room to demo to the detriment of the sound is limited.
I can't be sure of the latter, but to the former it was pretty obvious that this was not 'old news' despite his remonstrations.
what is fact vs opinion? Everything in life is pretty much an opinion when it comes to subjective products.
Its not that simple, fortunately. The only reason there is a subjective aspect is simply because the audio industry in general does not recognize many of the physiological aspects of human hearing and so has not devised a test.
That is likely not going to change anytime soon since many of the aspects of my previous statement cause debates all over the web that aren't going to go away anytime soon. But it is a false statement to assume that all things are that subjective- if we understand how the ear works, its a simple matter to apply engineering to solve the issue at hand. That means there is math and stuff...
This is precisely why we've avoided using feedback in our amps and seen reduced market share as a result. Its not because we don't want to sell amps- we do- its just that we want them to sound like real music when installed, and that's not going to happen if the speaker requires the amp to use a lot of feedback.
Such a speaker will only ever sound like a nice stereo. We don't want our amps doing that- we want them to sound real.
It all comes out of engineering and don't think for a second that its all somehow opinion!
Gdhal, there is no such thing as fact in audio when it comes to human ratings as the determiing factor.
Fact which is better a Mercedes or a BMW?
Not stastical data on HP, resale, size of trunk, cost of operation.
Please tell me which is better?
Now if you can tell me in your opinion one is better I am willing to bet ancedotal evidence will be presented, not hard facts.
Who is the best actress? Who makes the best ____________
When polled most people will have wildly different opinions on what the best of anything is in audio, wine, food, acting, painting. music, etc.
Also please pour a $2.00 bottle of Ripple, a $10 bottle of wine, and a bottle of 1957 Chateau Lafeet into a gass chromatagraph and see if it tells you statstical data on the real differences that anyone with a palette can easily taste.
Ball is in your court.
Facts are proven by science, opinion is based on human interaction, consenus, and subjective testing and biases.
I always get a kick out of this (and no offense to mapman mind you)
"I would be looking at something like Bel Canto ref600m amps for top
notch sound, bang for the buck, manageable size, and low power
consumption/electric bills".
So we spend literally thousands upon thousands of dollars on audio equipment and some are focused on saving a few bucks on the electric bill? I don't care how much my electric bill is if I can enjoy my system.
I have the Dynaudio C-1 Platinums hooked up to a borrowed Pass Labs XP 12 Preamp and Pass Labs XA 25 amp. it sounds great so far but I might try a bit more power in the amp dept. Any opinions or is everyone content to destroy Audiotroy?
Bubba why don,t you pm Musicfx and ask him why he choose the 2500r over the Pass?
You can see why people stay away from these threads the negativity is ridiculous.
From arcane discussions of transistors to an attack on our sound room and knowledge from a cranky old otl amp guy who doesnt undestand the logistics of being able to offer more than one choice of speakers.
If you noticed Bubba the attacks were frequent. Did you ever get ancedotal evidence of anyone comparing amp x to amp y and telling you why amp x was better which might actually help you?
The way we get interested in a product is the review.
Although everyone may value different things a very positive review is a way to find out if a product is worth checking out in the first place.
We checked out the brand because of the TAS review which compared an 18k Integrated to a 120k worth of Swiss ref gear and we thought many people would want to hear such a cool product.
It was only after testing and comparing did we know this gear was special.
Bubba maybe the audiogon community is made up of such brand loyal fanatics that you cant teach these old dogs something new.
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