Thanks, @mclinnguy Looks like I’m going to have to get rid of the painting and get some quadratic diffusers instead. A local audiophile friend has the RD Acoustics panels in his listening room. Beautiful but very expensive!!! Plus the wait time on new ones is around 6 months. By the way, I’m only buying used AQ cables as funds permit - usually around 60% off. No way, I’m paying retail for the new ones.
I think I will go with about 4 of the Gotham N23 diffusers in the center of the wall. And flank them with 4 (2 on each side of the wall) Q7Ds. Pretty pricey, so maybe I will look for used ones if I can find them.
|
“I think I will go with about 4 of the Gotham N23 diffusers in the center of the wall. And flank them with 4 (2 on each side of the wall) Q7Ds. Pretty pricey, so maybe I will look for used ones if I can find them”
@arafiq
I love the direction you are taking with acoustic panels and diffusers. The addition of both would further enhance your listening experience. When I treated my room, I couldn’t believe the impact and improvement after the installation. For most folks, it’s an afterthought but it should be the first and foremost priority especially if you have a dedicated listening room. May seems expensive at first, but it’s lot cheaper than being on equipment and tweaking merry-go-round.
|
@arafiq well first fill out GIK’s acoustical advice form and get their recommendations first- it is free!
@lalitk
For most folks, it’s an afterthought but it should be the first and foremost priority especially if you have a dedicated listening room. May seems expensive at first, but it’s lot cheaper than being on equipment and tweaking merry-go-round.
And those who have treated their room keep saying this to the masses, but we understand it is definitely not as exciting or as sexy as shiny new components.
|
“And those who have treated their room keep saying this to the masses, but we understand it is definitely not as exciting or as sexy as shiny new components. ”
@mclinnguy
LOL! I can say unequivocally, that shiny new component will sound heck of lot better in an acoustically treated room.
|
GIK did the treatments in my prior larger office. They were perfect with all the speakers I had except the LRS+. With the LRS+ I removed the panels for the first reflections and the sound was better (soundstage). I kept the panels behind the speakers and also behind my seating position. The arbitrator of what stayed was ear fatigue.
This was another reason I got the Mini since the Maggies seem to have less side reflection issues.
|
I first heard the big Maggies about 35 years ago. They gave the best sound I'd ever heard, but I listened to the naysayers who were naysaying exactly the same things they're naysaying now. So I bought JBL's instead. The sound of the Maggies never left my ears and then I heard another pair a few years late. Sold the JBL's and bought the 3.3r's. Still own the same pair today. My wife claims she'll bury me in them (OK!). They are VERY picky about placement. fractions of an inch and a degree here or there make a difference. It's WORTH spending the time to tweak then, though. You'll want an in-home trial of any electronics. I've heard them with BIG Audio Research tube amp and they sound incredible but I can't afford those nor would I put up with the hassle. They are musical and can be forgiving but will highlight the strengths and weaknesses of your system. I listen in near field, the speakers are about 6 feet apart and 5 feet in front of my head. Dynamics are strong, though nothing beats my old JBL's on the bass drum on Love Over Gold. They were visceral!!!!
|
Why? I have friends that had the 3.7’s and the 20.7’s and they don’t anymore. I never liked the sound. Lean bass and these friends tried to get subwoofers to work with them with no luck. They filled their respective rooms which is probably the best benefit, but box speakers will do a better job.
With the larger 20.7’s, you need a heavy duty amp.
I did go listen to the 30.7’s while they had their break out tour. Terrible! In separate locations they sounded poor. Not sure if they had issues with something but even my friends didn’t think they sound d any good.
There are so many good speakers out there, you needed to go to some shows or to some dealers to listen to different kinds of speaker systems
|
I've found that people who complain about larger Maggies bass don't know what bass actually sounds like.
|
This forum repeatedly manages to cling to two incompatible truths:
1) listening is subjective; trust your ears
2) my equipment is objectively better than your (respected/revered) equipment, which is objectively terrible
These two positions often make discussion/debate possible, but they also make discussion/debate meaningless.
|
I’m sure the OP has moved on by now... but... for those who are still considering them - here’s all you need to know:
https://www.youtube.com/results?search_query=magnepan+lrs%2B+demos
You can try the LRS+, which is about "as good as it gets" for any speaker... and decide.
I have several great speakers and systems... and... found the LRS+ is just as OCD Audio Guy claims "about as good as it gets" - when matched with the right system - for Jazz, Country, Classical (all things acoustic)! If you're into Rock, Hip Hop, etc. you can't appreciate their sound anyway - so don't waste your time!
I also found that all of the "tweeks" don’t make a big difference - the LRS+ sounds great right out of the box! And... I’m only using a $700 Class D Audio SDS-470C amp - which drives them exceptionally well!
So... for a $1000... the LRS+ is a "sure bet!"
|
+1 @lalitk Buying high-end equipment and not treating your room is akin to getting a Ferrari and putting the cheapest tires on it. That being said, we know that many audiophiles share listening rooms with family and its not always feasible (WAF).
All the existing room treatment I have currently was a result of working closely with GIK. They're not as comprehensive as Vicoustics, but their prices are much more reasonable. I realize that I have changed speakers 3 times since getting room treatments, so perhaps I need to re-evaluate everything. For example, do I really need to treat the side walls? Either way, treating the front wall is the highest priority for now.
|
There are so many good speakers out there, you needed to go to some shows or to some dealers to listen to different kinds of speaker systems
What makes you think I haven't already done so? I have owned many speakers ranging from $5-30K in the past. I regularly visit shows (when they're local or nearby) and audio dealer show rooms. I'm also part of an audio club where folks have speakers ranging from the uber-expensive (high-end Magico, Avantgarde, Wilson, Borresen, Sonus Faber, etc.) to affordable (GR Research, Rega, Tekton, etc.) where we meet regularly and listen and critique each others' systems. So believe me, I know what I'm talking about :)
IMO Magnepan 3.7i's, despite their reasonable price (comparatively speaking), are one of the best values around in audiodom today. Are they the best? Of course not! But what they do well, they do it better than many speakers costing two to three times. Secondly, I don't believe in endgame speakers anymore. My goal is to try (in my own system) all manners of speaker designs, including horns, open baffle, omni-directional, etc. at some point in my journey. No speaker is best at everything, but that doesn't mean we cannot enjoy and appreciate the great qualities that each speaker type is capable of. Happy listening!
|
@arafiq
For example, do I really need to treat the side walls?
I would wager no. I just removed all 6 of my side wall absorption panels, which are Primacoustic Broadway 12" x 48" x 2" of high density glass wool. Easy to do as they are just pressed on protruding triangular hooks screwed into the drywall.
I think Cannonball’s sax (Kind of Blue- So What) was a little further outside the speaker, and the tiniest bit of high frequency information and spaciousness was introduced, and the upright bass was a little looser with them removed, but if I had to pass a blind test I don’t think I would. This is in an 11 foot width room- I would guess a larger room would have less effect. Room looks naked without them now so I replaced them.
Due to dipole cancellation there is not alot of energy dispersed to the sides of maggies. Maybe the sidewall is a good place for the painting? If you wanted the sound of the alto sax to emanate from the painting that is. 
Broadway panels absorption coefficient data
|
Great thread @arafiq . Having been on the fence as well with mags, this "thought" comes up, kind of like dipping toes into vinyl   . I have friends with 1.7i and have heard them many times and they do sound great. They do things really well and other things that may or may not meet ones preferences.
I recently heard them again in a diff setting and although they do kinda wow you at first, it didn't take long to realize I don't think I would be happy long term - citing many of the same attributes you did, that's why this was such a good read.
The big soundstage etc.. is "cool" but to me always seemed a bit too much or "artificial" for lack of a better word. It sorta mashes everything together compared to dynamic/point source. That's what I miss almost immediately - the dynamics, pin point imaging and bass authority. I run two sealed 15" subs so I should be OK if I decide to try,
Maybe that's just an element I'm used to and living with mags overtime would fall in love, dunno. Like you I have determined that its either 3.7i or the 20's and really its more of a "something to try" and not at all unhappy with current setup - far, far from it. However, I'm not a constant gear swapper, I find something that gels/has synergy and stick with it for awhile.
I always read from experienced/established users/audiophiles that everyone should try planers, just to see - that's always my motivation.
One other note, you have a nice room and your comment about diffusion - I would recommend against mixing up different types. For the front wall do all QRD's (one dimensional only) along with proper corner bass trapping. I've tried it and it can mess things up (diffusion is tricky/complex and in all honesty professional adivice is highly recommended) - I have on front wall two dimensional skylines (vicoustic DC2) which are hemispheric broadband diffusion.(about 12-14 panels). Works well, but I "think" if I were to do it over, would put all QRD - at least from my research, so the usual YMMV, my $.02
|
An interesting observation for me today with my Mini. I switched over to my Schitt Aegir monoblock amps which run at 70 watts 8 Ohm in Class A. Not sure about 4 Ohm. All other gear was the same.
The sound was a little more rounded than my Sander Magtech (Class AB). The sound was also rather boomy. I was getting fatigued and was thinking that I needed to put some of the GIK panels back behind the speaker to tame this sound. However, I gave all my panels away so that is not an option anymore.
I put back my Sanders Magtech and the boominess and fatigue went away. This was without any acoustic treatment in a weird room..
I am assuming that the Mini was not well served on the low end by the Aegir and the boominess was the result. My takeaway is to use a very powerful amp with the Mini. I am surprised I am not getting any sonic issues with the Sanders. It sounds great.
After a few more days with the 10 AWG Blue Jean speaker cable, it is no longer a question of whether I am keeping the cable. I put my Audience FrontRow up for sale. I am not even trying it on the Mini because I would need to rearrange some things to make the short FrontRow cable work. I also do not care for any marginal improvement, if it even exists, with the FrontRow. The Blue Jean cost under $300 for 2 sets and the short FrontRow speaker cable was about $5k MSRP.
|
Now that the LRS+ version has replaced the previous version, which was already said to have incorporated all new lessons learned by Magnepan in the original LRS version, and received much acclaim, do any of the owners of above entry level now older Maggies feel like the system has failed them? What if, after buying the best speaker and before system, you find out that you're already supposed to be dead, unless it's at a minimum of 10,000 watts, when you just heard Attack by The Exploited, oh, and with a sub?
How was the military intervention, since Reagan? Was there ever anything even YOU could find out, while James Bond was you first?
A potential customer's only hope of survival may be in a review of that track on any Maggies, with a comparison to what we should expect dynamic drivers to roughly be. What if someone broke into your home one weekend day, and demanded to hear your best rendition of that track, to find out whether you live or die? 
|
@audioisnobiggie I don't think I understand your post. What is the point you're trying to make?
|
So it has been a few weeks since I received the new Magnepan 3.7i’s. I thought I’d share my findings -- good and bad, thus far ...
First, break in is important for most speakers but probably even more important for the Maggies. Initially, they sounded muffled, restricted, with very little bass. Imaging was substandard as well. I almost thought of returning them.
Fast forward to today, and most of these issues have been resolved by way of putting more hours, positioning, and adding subs. Both bass and midrange have improved considerably. Imaging, while not pinpoint accurate, sounds fantastic now. In fact, everyone who has listened to my system says that they sound more life-like, as in how it sounds in live events. Instrument separation is great, in fact better than most box speakers I’ve owned. I don’t find anything mushy or diffused about the image or soundstage at all. I suspect most folks who complain about that are not using adequate power, or current to be more precise. These big boys like current ... like a lot!
Bass response also improved quite a bit but I came to the conclusion that panel speakers will simply not give me that deep thumping bass no matter how you slice it. I auditioned several subs in my system, including REL S510, S812, and Rhythmik/GR Research open baffle. RELs, as good as they are, simply couldn’t keep up with the speed of Maggies. Don’t get me wrong, they were quite good but I could always hear them somehow. We spent several hours positioning and repositioning them but they didn’t quite disappear the way I wanted to. Rhythmik/GR open baffles were somewhat of a let down. I had such high expectations, but they simply don’t have the same level of refinement as REL.
In the end, the only one that ticked all the boxes for me was a pair of Wilson Benesch Torus subs. Each sub is driven by a dedicated external amplifier also supplied by WB. These subs are FAST!!! No matter what I throw at them, they never lose composure and provides me with deep tight bass without calling attention to themself. They disappear better than any other sub I’ve ever owned. The biggest revelation for me was to realize how much more nuance and texture is present in the bass region. REL does it quite well, but the WBs take it one step further. Rhythmik/GR didn’t get close to this level of performance, but they also cost a lot less so maybe it shouldn’t be surprising. But yeah, giant killers they’re not :)
At this point, I’m getting the most amazing, wide and deep soundstage, excellent imaging (though can be improved further) and midrange. The bass is deep and tight. In short, these babies are staying in my system.
Next steps: I ordered new stands from Mye Sound -- the new aluminum V-base stands. From what I’ve been reading, they should further improve imaging and bass. I’ve also ordered 4 quadratic diffusers (Q7) to go on the wall behind speakers.
|
@arafiq
Great update! I am not at all surprised with your findings. I have been fortunate to hear WB sub system few times and always came away impressed. They were of course in a system well north of $200K (courtesy AAudio Imports). Keep us updated…we all are living vicariously through your amazing journey.
|
Well there is the post I have been waiting for- good stuff @arafiq  Wilson Benesch huh? I thought for sure they might have been some style of open baffle.
edit: Ok, just looked up the Wilson Benesch "infrasonic generators"- wow! you must be getting some "real" bass now!
I don’t find anything mushy or diffused about the image or soundstage at all. I suspect most folks who complain about that are not using adequate power, or current to be more precise. These big boys like current ... like a lot!
Or they don’t take the time to live with them for enough time, and quickly loose the patience necessary to set them up properly.
Bass response also improved quite a bit but I came to the conclusion that panel speakers will simply not give me that deep thumping bass no matter how you slice it.
Yeah, they don’t do that. Again that argument of "what I like vs. what is realistic". What do people define bass to be: Is it what an acoustic bass, live, un-amplified sounds like? Or does bass mean an amplified kick drum played back in a rock concert, where I can remember being on the floor in front of stacks of 15-18 inch woofers and your hair and pants move several inches on each note. I might argue one is realistic and the other not, but I might also argue both are correct, and fine- choose your poison. Maggies do the first part as well as anything I have heard, but the second part, yeah, not so much- rules of physics apply here.
If you can allow me to hijack your thread a bit- I admit after 15 years of 3.6r’s I am enjoying a little "thump" with the Eufrodites. Of course there are songs/albums where I have missed the low frequency growl, areas below 40hz where the 3.6’s start to tail off quickly, but the kick drum always sounded natural to me, and it is not so much the "thump", or even a more impactful "whack" on tom toms. To be honest, I find it grabs my attention and detracts from the drum’s mid-notes resonance, but with more listening I may change my mind. Where I find I am enjoying the "impact" is on leading edges of notes- like bass guitars- you know, the electric amplified ones. I get a little "punch" from the midrange driver that was not so noticeable with the planars. Maybe that isn’t so much a conventional woofer cone vs. planar magnetic difference, maybe that is the difference between my particular speakers? I am not so experienced with various characteristics of speakers.
There are many other differences I won’t list here, but also many similarities- voices are so similar- I enjoy the presentation of both- but then again some perspective: I am used to and comparing maggies with speakers that retailed for over 4x this. Speaks volumes for the quality of sound one can get from Magneplanar for the money- that is what I was told 20 years ago and I suppose it still applies today. Maybe the differences will become more apparent when I get an amplifier that suits the Horning’s better than the one I am using that benefits the lower efficiency Maggies.
: I ordered new stands from Mye Sound
Also, I did find Isoacoustics Gaia II footers under my Mye’s cleaned up the presentation as they have been reported to do on virtually everyone else’s speakers who have tried them- sound became less muddy, less smearing, or also interpreted as better separation of instruments, and bass tightened up. Had thoughts of trying more expensive footers/platforms such as Live Vibe’s, Townshends or Stack Audio’s but I have spent that money on a second set of speakers instead (ha ha). It sure was nice that discover that the Gaia simply unscrewed from the Mye stands and into the bottoms of the Eufrodites using different threaded screws already supplied in the box the Gaia’s came in. And yes, they are providing the same sonic benefits in the Eufrodites as I noticed with the Maggies.
Thanks for follow-up! Let us know how those diffusors affect the soundstage.
Enjoy
|
Thanks, @lalitk .. your input has always been appreciated and honestly has played a huge role in how my system has evolved over the years.
|
