Thinking of Magnepan ... finally!

@arafiq 

just caught this thread- how you gettin on with these? The Cardas setup for dipoles is a good starting point, George has had the 3 series for many years. 

Try the Limage setup and see if you like that:

https://www.audioasylum.com/messages/MUG/217738/hk-limage-explained-sadie-is-our-in-house-expert-on-this-set-up

I tried it many months ago and I fell in love with the huge cavernous soundstage, and haven't gone back to the "conventional" setup, which for me was tweeters out, slightly toed in, triangular setup. 

I see the op has gone back to Harbeths :) 

So you have both the Harbeths and now the 3.7i’s?

It has been 15 years since I broke my 3.6’s in, I don’t recall what the tweeter did during break in, but I recall the bass was quite tight and lean until they did, then it got fuller and deeper as the panels loosened up. The old trick if you wanted to speed up the break in process was to put both speaker’s close together facing each other, and wire one out of phase, and play something like rap (god forbid).

I have upgraded everything else over the years, and keep upgrading everything else and the music keeps sounding better and better; I haven’t reached the limits of these speakers yet or my desire to change them to something else. And yeah, I enjoy Dream Theater through these planars too. If anything I will start to build a second system before I ever get rid of them.

I might add earlier this year I talked to a highly regarded US speaker manufacturer, and he uses a set of 3.6’s to voice his own "box" speakers- says from 200 Hz and up they are "perfect".

My pleasure. Glad you are enjoying the bonkers setup.

For others wondering wtf, essentially it is a theory of coupling the speakers back wave to the room itself using the front wall, and what results is a wall of sound, a cathedral effect, and yeah, it can be quite an experience in soundstage. Diffusion like the quadratic diffuser I have on the front wall makes the imaging even more precise.

If you want more bass, push the speakers closer to the side walls, (same distance to the front wall). Less bass further away from the sidewalls.

Yeah, that painting is quite big, the problem is it is a large flat surface you can’t get the scattering or diffusion with it and the sound will always be compromised. I don’t know if somebody else has a say in the matter but the best sound will be a produced from a proper irregular surface, based on mathematical theory:

Look at some of this eye candy - when the visual and the practical are combined and the result is beneficial and beautiful. 

@arafiq I know GIK wanted to sell me the polyfusor’s behind them, but that was before they came out with the slatfusor’s or their own Q7 diffusor . I am curious to know what they would recommend now, but me being in Canada the cost of shipping was the same amount as the cost of the products, so I decided to make my own. I found some excellent acoustics resources I could share with you if you are interested, based on those I decided to go with a quadratic residue style. I wish I could give you the listening impressions of my N11 diffuser compared to an N13 or other, but that is the only one I have heard. So no idea if diffusion from 500 hz to 4200 hz is better than 680 hz to 5300 hz (going off the top of my head :) I chose the N11 because of the size. It was a fun project and yes, it does work, very well. I just have been thinking of adding more above them to the ceiling- because the speaker exceeds them in height they should diffuse in that area as well. (in theory)

If you have the budget for Dragon cables, If it were me, I would definitely get this diffusor: RD Acoustic I think it looks awesome, I may have one in the future. Does it sound better or worse then mine? No idea :)

My philosophy is diffusion on the front wall, absorption on the back wall. I do have some extras on the side walls, but I don't think they do much- maybe reduce a bit of slap echo. I don’t think a wee bit of foam on the front wall (behind the paining) will do anything to improve soundstage, but it may tame a little of the high frequencies if one feels that is necessary. 

The common approach suggested in the planar forum was a few fig trees, I did that years ago also, and they did work for the highest frequencies to improve imaging, and the price was right, but these N11 quadratic diffusors work better. 

@yyzsantabarbara yeah, I have read plenty from really knowledgeable bloggers, some who have forgotten more about speaker and crossover design than I will ever know, and some who have designed and engineered world class amplifiers, who still state that speaker cables don't matter. My ears tell me otherwise. I currently have 2 sets of Silversmith Fidelium's connected to my Cardas binding posts on the back of my 3.6R's, I prefer them to the previous Acoustic Zen Absolute's, and I suspect they will be on there for a while. 

@arafiq well first fill out GIK’s acoustical advice form and get their recommendations first- it is free!

@lalitk 

For most folks, it’s an afterthought but it should be the first and foremost priority especially if you have a dedicated listening room. May seems expensive at first, but it’s lot cheaper than being on equipment and tweaking merry-go-round.

And those who have treated their room keep saying this to the masses, but we understand it is definitely not as exciting or as sexy as shiny new components. 

@arafiq

For example, do I really need to treat the side walls?

I would wager no. I just removed all 6 of my side wall absorption panels, which are Primacoustic Broadway 12" x 48" x 2" of high density glass wool. Easy to do as they are just pressed on protruding triangular hooks screwed into the drywall.

I think Cannonball’s sax (Kind of Blue- So What) was a little further outside the speaker, and the tiniest bit of high frequency information and spaciousness was introduced, and the upright bass was a little looser with them removed, but if I had to pass a blind test I don’t think I would. This is in an 11 foot width room- I would guess a larger room would have less effect. Room looks naked without them now so I replaced them. 

Due to dipole cancellation there is not alot of energy dispersed to the sides of maggies. Maybe the sidewall is a good place for the painting? If you wanted the sound of the alto sax to emanate from the painting that is.

Broadway panels absorption coefficient data

Well there is the post I have been waiting for- good stuff @arafiq Wilson Benesch huh? I thought for sure they might have been some style of open baffle.

edit: Ok, just looked up the Wilson Benesch "infrasonic generators"- wow! you must be getting some "real" bass now! 

I don’t find anything mushy or diffused about the image or soundstage at all. I suspect most folks who complain about that are not using adequate power, or current to be more precise. These big boys like current ... like a lot!

Or they don’t take the time to live with them for enough time, and quickly loose the patience necessary to set them up properly.

Bass response also improved quite a bit but I came to the conclusion that panel speakers will simply not give me that deep thumping bass no matter how you slice it.

Yeah, they don’t do that. Again that argument of "what I like vs. what is realistic". What do people define bass to be: Is it what an acoustic bass, live, un-amplified sounds like? Or does bass mean an amplified kick drum played back in a rock concert, where I can remember being on the floor in front of stacks of 15-18 inch woofers and your hair and pants move several inches on each note. I might argue one is realistic and the other not, but I might also argue both are correct, and fine- choose your poison. Maggies do the first part as well as anything I have heard, but the second part, yeah, not so much- rules of physics apply here.

If you can allow me to hijack your thread a bit- I admit after 15 years of 3.6r’s I am enjoying a little "thump" with the Eufrodites. Of course there are songs/albums where I have missed the low frequency growl, areas below 40hz where the 3.6’s start to tail off quickly, but the kick drum always sounded natural to me, and it is not so much the "thump", or even a more impactful "whack" on tom toms. To be honest, I find it grabs my attention and detracts from the drum’s mid-notes resonance, but with more listening I may change my mind. Where I find I am enjoying the "impact" is on leading edges of notes- like bass guitars- you know, the electric amplified ones. I get a little "punch" from the midrange driver that was not so noticeable with the planars. Maybe that isn’t so much a conventional woofer cone vs. planar magnetic difference, maybe that is the difference between my particular speakers? I am not so experienced with various characteristics of speakers.

There are many other differences I won’t list here, but also many similarities- voices are so similar- I enjoy the presentation of both- but then again some perspective: I am used to and comparing maggies with speakers that retailed for over 4x this. Speaks volumes for the quality of sound one can get from Magneplanar for the money- that is what I was told 20 years ago and I suppose it still applies today. Maybe the differences will become more apparent when I get an amplifier that suits the Horning’s better than the one I am using that benefits the lower efficiency Maggies.

: I ordered new stands from Mye Sound

Also, I did find Isoacoustics Gaia II footers under my Mye’s cleaned up the presentation as they have been reported to do on virtually everyone else’s speakers who have tried them- sound became less muddy, less smearing, or also interpreted as better separation of instruments, and bass tightened up. Had thoughts of trying more expensive footers/platforms such as Live Vibe’s, Townshends or Stack Audio’s but I have spent that money on a second set of speakers instead (ha ha). It sure was nice that discover that the Gaia simply unscrewed from the Mye stands and into the bottoms of the Eufrodites using different threaded screws already supplied in the box the Gaia’s came in. And yes, they are providing the same sonic benefits in the Eufrodites as I noticed with the Maggies.

Thanks for follow-up! Let us know how those diffusors affect the soundstage.

Enjoy

Regarding your comment about Gaia footers, I was advised by someone whose opinion I value, that the Gaia footers are not the best choice for Maggies. He recommended Auva speaker isolators by Stack Audio for carpeted floors. But I have not tried them so it's neither here nor there.

I am positive the Auva's would be better, the Gaia's provided a positive benefit, and considering the price paid is well worthwhile, but for sure there are better options out there. But, if I were considering spending $1200 US for those Auva 100's I would seriously consider spending a wee bit more and getting Live Vibe's. I am going to guess your pal hasn't tried them.

I own 4 of their platforms but only relatively recently, and I have only put them under components. I love what they do there, and I planned on placing a few of them under the Mye stands but they don't fit without some minor modifications to the stands. I will try them under my Eufrodites eventually once I get familiar enough with the "new" sound and compare them to the Gaia's. 

Both Stack Audio and Live Vibe offer money back guarantee's- man I would love you to try both and provide comparisons,  as long as Robert can provide ones that fit the base of your maggies. If you have lots of time give Robert a call- he is old school and likes to talk for long periods of time 

I am happy your ears/brain are similar to mine and you are enjoying the Maggie sound, and echoing what @lalitk stated above I am enjoying reading your experiences. 

https://livevibeaudio.com/

@arafiq Oh! I didn't realize you already had them! Silly me. Yeah, it not a typical footprint under the maggies. 

I would love to hear from someone who has tried this GR crossover mod and is willing to share their experience.

So would I- I did mine myself but just using stock values, and rewired the drivers with Neotech OCC solid core wire- it was so satisfying to remove those $0.01 dollar tin connectors from the tweeters. I see Magnepan actually provides this X upgrade to those who desire it. 

Just 1 hour ago, fresh off the Fedex truck from Japan, I have just hooked up a 4 watt (!) tube amp to my Horning's, and started with the most logical album to break in my first ever tube amp- Dream Theater- Awake 

And it rocks!!!!!!!!! Wouldn't work so well on the 3.6r's of course