thieliste
what is the cost of Mundorf binding posts?
Happy Listening!
Thiel Owners
Guys-
I just scored a sweet pair of CS 2.4SE loudspeakers. Anyone else currently or previously owned this model?
Owners of the CS 2.4 or CS 2.7 are free to chime in as well. Thiel are excellent w/ both tubed or solid-state gear!
Keep me posted & Happy Listening!
I just scored a sweet pair of CS 2.4SE loudspeakers. Anyone else currently or previously owned this model?
Owners of the CS 2.4 or CS 2.7 are free to chime in as well. Thiel are excellent w/ both tubed or solid-state gear!
Keep me posted & Happy Listening!
13,448 responses Add your response
@jafant Retail for 2 sets is $190, got mine for $80 from my friend who installed them. He might also help me redo the crossovers with top notch Mundorf caps at some point. |
@vair68robert Thanks yes it's a beautiful dark Amberwood finish. My previous 3.7s were not as dark, i much prefer this darker Amberwood. |
Some remembrances of Amberwood. From its beginning, Thiel offered four primary veneers: Black Walnut, White Oak, Teak and Brazilian Rosewood (extra charge). Over time we stocked virtually anything that anyone requested. That was possible because we worked from raw veneers rather than laid-up faces or panels. We matched, jointed and laminated in-house which is highly unusual (some say crazy!) As Brazilian Rosewood became more scarce > illegal to import by 1991, and Teak was becoming lower quality and more expensive, I sought a beautiful, sustainable, affordable addition to our stable of offerings. That materialized in 1990’s CS2.2. The wood goes by Santos Rosewood, Bolivian Rosewood, Pau Ferro (ironwood), Caviuna and other names. To verify ethical / sustainable sources, I went to Brazil and Bolivia to sort the liars from the thieves. I landed on a Japanese mill in Santa Cruz, Bolivia as our primary source - impeccable in every way. I toured the mills, log concentration yards and some harvest operations in the company of the head of the Bolivian Forestry Department, the dean of the University School of Forestry, and Jim Martin, our importer and president of ’The Forestry Fund’ which underwrites tree planting, education and sustainability programs around the world. He had the checkbook that underwrote a serious sustainability program for Pau Ferro with the native Chiquitano tribe as our long-term partner. Think curare blow darts protecting the managed forest plantation. That’s another story for another time. Back to Amberwood. This Pau Ferro timber is what has been called ’Rosewood’ in European (Danish, etc.) furniture since the 1960s. It’s not a true (Dalbergia) Rosewood, but has similar properties. Among its many international names is Santos Rosewood for the southeastern Brazilian port of Santos where it is exported to Europe. But none grows within thousands of miles of Santos and most of what is sliced in Brazil is stolen from its native range in Bolivia. I wanted a clean name for our clean sourcing of this wood with a very dirty history. The plot thickens in that two primary species of Machaerium are combined for market (a common practice). The lowland (Machaerium acutifolium) is fairly dark purple and goes locally by Morado (purple). We adopted that name for that type. The more rare upland (Machaerium scleroxylon) is lighter and more variable in color, often with more exotic dark striping. Lacking a separate commercial name we felt free to assign one. Kathy Gornik engaged in dialogue with some dealers and customers and coined the name ’Amberwood’. We were able to segregate the two types due to our direct Bolivian source. But things get more complex. The two species hybridize at mid elevations and conditions. And we learned the hard way that some of that middle-type wood was more photosensitive - bleaching to amber, while other trees stayed darker - mellowing to Morado. Side-step to the veneer inspection / buying process where typically three slices are removed from the sliced flitch (at 1/4, 1/2, 3/4 through the stack). These samples became my inventory-planning samples. I stored part of one of those samples from every ’Amberwood’ log in a sunny location to determine how it would age, forming the basis for naming that flitch either Morado or Amberwood. This long story addresses a small corner of the complexity of offering real wood finishes at the level of attention that we did. I’ve been told that my ’ageing for identity’ process didn’t continue after my departure, which leads back around to why some Morado isn’t very dark and some Amberwood isn’t very amber. It seems that Thiel Morado became a red-stained finish and Amberwood became more varied as luck would have it. Enjoy your Amberwood / Morado speakers - Tom |
Hello everyone! I currently own a pair of CS2’s and am enjoying their sound quite a bit but was curious what I could expect from a larger, say 3.6 or 3.7 model? I know people say to make sure and have a powerful enough amp, I currently have a Pass Labs X250.8 which I have no plans to change. I’m pretty sure the 3.6 or 3.7 would be overkill in my current room (listening position 8.5’ from speakers) but I have plans to be in a different space in the upcoming year and would love to try these out.
Appreciate any thoughts on this |
drack1
Welcome! Good to see you here. Yes, a Pass Labs X250.8 will be enough current for a pair of CS 3.7 speakers. This particular model requires a large room to "bloom". Listening position is fine at 8.5 feet. The Panel has several 3.6 fans/owners, stay tuned until those guys chime in to address your query. I look forward in reading more about Musical tastes and system.
Happy Listening! |
@tomthiel Thanks so much for the story. |
@drack1 with that amp i would definitely get a pair of 3.7s if you can find one. |
Hello @thieliste and everyone, I’ve been considering Gaia footers because there is good science behind them, but the 3.7s are so rigid and stable I have doubts it would make much difference. Hope others chime in with experience... Stefan |
@dr3 A friend of mine told me i might lose some bass if i use Gaia footers. Since they are not cheap i'm not willing to take the risk. Any thoughts ? |
dr3
Welcome! Good to see you today. The original Outriggers are a Sonic match for the CS 3.7 speakers. If you feel the need to further isolate, use Outriggers. I have spent much time with this Model and it sounds fine with/without coupling. I look forward in reading more about your Musical taste and system. Happy Listening! |
I actually just ordered some Gaia 2 feet for my Thiel 2.7s. I tried the Townshend Seismic speaker stands (spring based) and didn't totally get on with them. They did reduce bass resonance and maybe the speakers disappeared a bit more, but also changed the tonality enough that I preferred the speakers directly on the floor.
The Gaia won't decouple the speakers as completely as the Townshend stands, so I'm hoping they sort of split the difference. I'll let you guys know how it goes.
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@jafant thanks for the warm welcome. Glad I finally discovered this group. Four years ago I lucked out on a beautiful pair of 3.7 for sale in Toronto (within driving distance) with outriggers. I love the transparency of these speakers but I am at odds with the slightly lean bass (my room seems to suck out the mid-bass) so I am constantly trying different speaker cables because I do not have any EQ. I listen to a lot of jazz and blues-rock. If I only listened to acoustic guitar I feel like there would be no problem 😉 Hans Beekhuyzen found the Gaias to work wonders, with sound scientific reason, but I already find the speakers dead accurate and not willing to lose any more bass! |
@dr3 What amp are you using to drive your 3.7s ? It is indeed pretty difficult to get good bass with 3.7s if your amp doesn't deliver enough current. A good pair of high current monoblocks is usually what works best. |
Greetings All. i have been remiss from posting so here goes. 1. i do use the GAIA feet under my 3.7’s and i liked what they did as the speaker actually got a little richer sounding. 2. the 3.7’s do require some heavy duty amps and i use the PS Audio BHK 300 mono blocks, but even their stereo 250 amp did a great job when i had it. 3. I have been contemplating updating with new speakers and per Jafant’s urging, i will be sharing some of my findings here. My criteria for speakers would be that they would be USA made, and have dealers near me. Lucky for me there are two guys who have shops nearby and both are friends. one sells Wilson and i have listened to the Sabrina’s and the Sasha’s, and the other guy sells Magico and i have listened to the A5’s. Jafant warned me that i would have to spend some serious bucks to improve on the 3.7’s and he was correct. I liked a lot of what the Sabrinas did, but they lacked the openness and transparency of the 3.7s. on the other hand the Sasha’s were stunning but a bit more than i had planned to spend at $39K. Have heard the Magico A5 twice now and, like the Sabrinas, they did a lot I liked but i think the room they are in really holds them back as they are very close to the side walls. the owner said that he would bring them to my home in Jan. for a weekend audition. That would be the only way i can know how they really do. One of my complaints about the 3.7’s (and with all Thiel speakers going back to my first pair of 2.0’s in 1985) is that there can be an irritating glare when playing compact discs. So i recently got the new PS Audio DAC (I am a Beta tester) and the glare was reduced significantly. I asked Paul McGowan about that and here is his response: The lower noise floor doesn’t net out in the way people might think (less audible noise). All the efforts at lowering noise by galvanically isolating everything removes jitter and that is almost always audible as glare. Also, the improved output transformer and output stages have a lot to do with the better sound.
The bottom line is that the Thiels are just ruthlessly revealing, and that why i heard the glare as it was a digital artifact. They sound a lot better now that I am using the new DAC. Will be selling my older PS DSD DAC if anyone is interested. Please PM if so. I will be listing it soon and will sell it to anyone on this thread for $2600 which is a great price. I am a big PS fan and use lots of their gear (except their BHK preamp).
to quote JA, "Happy Listening"
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@ronkent Didn't you lose any bass with the Gaia footers under your 3.7s ? Richer sound is a very good thing for 3.7s as they can sometimes sound lean. Paired with the BHK 300 they must sound fantastic. I will definitely upgrade to monoblocks at some point to get the best out of them. |
ronkent Have you considered a tube buffer or a tube disc player ? I had the last solid state Carver CD player design , granted it was from the 80's and it sounded digital . It was replaced with Carvers last CD player that uses 2 tubes in the output and I love it , when I read about it it seemed that for years many considered it their reference player . My point is that using a tube buffer or finding a tube based CD player would most likely solve your disc brightness . You might also consider upgrading the components on your crossovers , they made a lot of improvements since 2006 .
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@ronkent Thanks for the update on your system and the advice on how an improved DAC can reduce glare and related digital gremlins in reproducing music from CDs. I've been following the comments on the PS Audio forum about the beta testing of the new DSD MK2 DAC, but I didn't know you were one of the beta testers. I currently own the original DSD DAC, and I'm very likely to move up to the MK2 once it becomes generally available. Putting together your impressions about reduced glare from CDs, together with other beta testers raving about how wonderfully musical and engaging the new DAC is, I'm thinking that a DSD MK2 may be a perfect match for taming any tendencies my Thiel 2.2 speakers might have for exhibiting any glare or brightness. I had been considering upgrading my ancient Sony CD player to a better player or transport that would use an external DAC, but I'm just not playing that many CDs any more. My preferred method for CD listening has now changed to ripping CDs to WAV files on my Innuos Zen server/streamer. I then send the digital signal from the Zen via USB to a PhoenixUSB re-clocker and then on to the DSD DAC. The PhoenixUSB improves the smoothness and naturalness of the reproduction, and I'm hoping that the addition of the new PS Audio DAC will take my system to an even higher level.
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@cascadesphil Thanks for the tips. The room is treated, walls and ceiling, as much as possible in the current domestic situation. If I wanted to really see how bad it was, I would haul in my Anthem preamp from the HT and run ARC, but there’s not much I can do about it other than obsess over the graphs. @vair68robert I saw that awesome 1.6 deal come through - amazing they still haven’t sold. I’ve had tubed CD players and DACs over the years, nothing special. The Bryston BDA-3 is the best DAC I’ve ever had. @thieliste I am currently using Bryston 4B3 but was using 7B2 monoblocks before and it was no better (actually worse). The low bass is very impactful and controlled, exactly how a Thiel should sound, but it’s the mid-bass that gives warmth which is sometimes completely missing. @jafant Outriggers have been on since day 1 - in fact I’ve never heard the speakers on their regular feet. What happens when you remove them? You think bringing them down 1/2" would help them loosen up a bit? @ronkent OK you’ve convinced me I need to try GAIA feet. I would need to order adapters that fit the Thiel threads though (it’s not one of the common thread sizes that are supplied). Also, if I wasn’t such a Bryston fanboy the BHK250 would probably be my next amp (and the matching preamp, etc) however I think they share a similar philosophy about lowering noise. All - I can’t blame digital nasties. I have a big VPI turntable (with a top Benz Micro cart that cost more than my "stereophile Class A" DAC) and the characteristic of the speakers in my room isn’t changed when I play records. Thanks for your input, Stefan |
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dr3
Which Tubed cd player(s) did you own? In reference to CS 3.7 and Outriggers, I found no substantial advantages/disadvantages while auditioning. The same ear-brain impressions for CS 2.4 and CS2.7 Models. It is still a very cool invention and worth keeping. Only with the CS 2.4SE did I find the Outriggers to sound beneficial. The matter has been discussed here in the past about this Loudspeaker needing the Coupling effect. Only a subtle Aural experience was appreciated for the better. All of my auditions were conducted in Rooms with carpet. Perhaps my impressions and thoughts would be different with Hard-wood surfaces?
I hope that this is helpful. Happy Listening! |
I do enjoy the stability and safety that the outriggers provide. I had a CAL Delta + Alpha DAC and Melos DVT long before I owned Thiels. I currently have a Sonic Frontiers Processor 3 in my "all tube" basement system. It's a great DAC but, like most SF gear, can't say it adds any of that mythical tube warmth. |
@ronkent Can you please let us know if you had the right threading included in your Gaia kit for the 3.7 outriggers. I would also like to try the Gaia ll footers eventually. |
hi @thieliste and @dr3, it has been a few years but i think i had to order some additional screws to attach the GAIA to the outriggers. i would certainly want a 30 day return on them as my friend Bob (who has 3.7's) did not like them., mine go onto bare floor as i cut the carpet away for them (his wife would not allow him to do so :). I really like the PS amps but i would guess that the Brystons would be great as well. I do want to try an integrated, the Gryphon Diablo, as it worked so well with the Wilson speakers, and it is something i can borrow for a few days. the Wilson dealer will not bring the Sasha's to my home and i totally understand why., so next year, if all goes well and just for fun, i am going to take my 3.7's over there and run them against the Wilsons.
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hi @sdl4, i would strongly encourage you to get a 30 day audition of the new PS DAC when it is available. as i told a good friend, it was like getting a new pair of speakers, or in Thiel world, going from say 2.2's, to 2.4's. my history with Thiel goes back to 1985 and here is the history: 1985 2.0 1992 2.2 (my longest running Thiel) 2007 2.4 2013 2.7 2018 3.7 |
@ronkent I've owned the Diablo 300 during a year with my 3.7s and didn't like the presentation at all. Its was pretty harsh sounding and the bass was lean. I now use a Vitus SIA-025 Mk2 which is class A, this integrated is in a different league and drives my 3.7s much better with finesse and i do have a deeper bass now and it is full body. |
thanks @thieliste . they seemed to do well with the Wilson speakers. i must admit it would take a lot for me to give up my PS mono blocks and Pass XP22 pre. i just like the idea of a simpler setup with less interconnects, etc.
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@ronkent I agree it will be very difficult to find an integrated that can equal your pre-power. The only one i can think of that i demoed in my system is the Audionet Humboldt but it is uber expensive. |
thieliste If you do upgrade the crossovers on your 3.7 I believe that you would be the first to do so . Also , I tried to keep the speakers facing straight ahead with 37" from the side walls, but the music just didn't sparkle almost a little flat sounding . So being board, free and curious I tried a toe in of 1/2" and bam they woke up , so I tried 1&1/2" and boom to much so I've been listening to 1" toe in with great pleasure (but I might experiment between 1/2" and 1" ) . |
